Clean Energy Fuels (CLNE) Q4 2021 Earnings Call Transcript

Clean Energy Fuels (CLNE 4.53%)
Q4 2021 Earnings Call
Feb 24, 2022, 4:30 p.m. ET

Contents:

• Prepared Remarks
• Questions and Answers
• Call Participants

Prepared Remarks:

Operator

Hello, and welcome to the Clean Energy fourth quarter 2021 earnings call. [Operator instructions] I would now like to turn the conference over to Robert Vreeland, CFO. Please go ahead, sir.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Thank you, operator. Earlier this afternoon, Clean Energy released financial results for the quarter and year ending December 31, 2021. If you did not receive the release, it is available on the investor relations section of the company's website at www.cleanenergyfuels.com where the call is also being webcast. There will be a replay available on the website for 30 days.

Before we begin, we'd like to remind you that some of the information contained in the news release and on this conference call contains forward-looking statements that involve risks, uncertainties, and assumptions that are difficult to predict. Words of expression reflecting optimism, satisfaction with current prospects, as well as words such as believe, intend, expect, plan, should, anticipate, and similar variations identify forward-looking statements, but their absence does not mean that the statement is not forward-looking. Such forward-looking statements are not a guarantee of performance. And the company's actual results could differ materially from those contained in such statements.

Several factors that could cause or contribute to such differences are described in detail in the risk factors section of Clean Energy's most recently filed Form 10-Q filed in November of 2021 or in our Form 10-K that will be filed later today. These forward-looking statements speak only as of the date of this release. The company undertakes no obligation to publicly update any forward-looking statements or supply new information regarding the circumstances after the date of this release. The company's non-GAAP EPS and adjusted EBITDA will be reviewed on this call and excludes certain expenses that the company's management does not believe are indicative of the company's core business operating results.

Non-GAAP financial measures should be considered in addition to results prepared in accordance with GAAP and should not be considered as a substitute for or superior to GAAP results. The directly comparable GAAP information, reasons why management uses non-GAAP information, a definition of non-GAAP EPS and adjusted EBITDA, and a reconciliation between these non-GAAP and GAAP figures is provided in the company's press release, which has been furnished to the SEC on Form 8-K today. With that, I will turn the call over to our president and chief executive officer, Andrew Littlefair.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Bob. Good afternoon, everyone. And thank you for joining us. I think my remarks could be a little shorter today because, hopefully, you were able to watch our RNG Day presentation last month.

We went into some detail about our strategy to expand our business by investing in the production of RNG, which allows us to deliver this incredibly clean fuel to a growing customer base. If you haven't been able to watch the presentation, I highly encourage you to do so. A recording of the presentation can be found on the investor page on Clean Energy's website. Despite the country in the world, having to grapple with the COVID pandemics ups and downs throughout 2021, the year ended up being one of the most strategically important since Boone Pickens and I founded Clean Energy 25 years ago.

Earlier in the year, we established joint ventures with BP and TotalEnergies to work together and build a steady supply of low-carbon RNG for the future. And soon after, we signed the company's largest fuel deal ever with Amazon. And our transformation into the leading provider of a negative carbon intensity fuel continued through the remainder of 2021 with the signing of partnerships with some of the country's largest dairies. In the fourth quarter of the year, the company delivered 105 million gallons, which was a 9% increase over the fourth quarter of 2020 and the most gallons we've ever delivered in a quarter in the company's history.

We continue to see solid gains in refuse and transit, while the deployment of Amazon's new fleet began to provide a lift to our heavy-duty truck sector. Our revenue for the quarter was $92 million, an increase of 23% compared to the same quarter in the previous year. Deducting a few noncash charges, including the Amazon warrant, the increase in revenue would have been close to 26%. Adjusted EBITDA for the quarter rose to $18 million from $13 million in Q4 of 2020.

And after making contributions to the BP and TotalEnergies JVs, we ended the quarter with $229 million in cash and investments with only $39 million in debt, allowing us to end 2021 in a very good financial position. As I mentioned, our fueling agreement with Amazon is beginning to show results. Amazon heavy-duty trucks have fueled at over 85 different existing Clean Energy stations around the country through the end of the fourth quarter. We also made good progress on the 19 new stations that we are building based on the Amazon demand, with construction underway at multiple locations in engineering and permitting underway of many more.

As a reminder, while Amazon will be a large anchor customer, all these new stations will be publicly accessible and located in high-traffic distribution center areas and other busy corridors. This will allow other customers to fuel at the stations adding volume without deploying additional capital. To that point, our current customer, Estes Express Lines, recently added another 100 heavy-duty natural gas trucks to their fleet, which will fuel our stations in California and Texas. Valley Express services is adding 30 heavy-duty trucks and Pacific Green Trucking is increasing their natural gas fleet with 23 trucks.

Valley Express and Pacific Green finance their new trucks through our program with Chevron and will fuel with RNG at our stations near the ports of L.A. and Long Beach. I believe the momentum and recognition of RNG is building in the heavy-duty truck market. What I refer to as the Amazon effect is beginning to be felt across the industry.

I'm sure it did not go unnoticed by most every company involved in logistics and the movement of goods when Amazon celebrated the delivery of their 1,000th heavy-duty RNG truck in the fourth quarter of last year. As I've said before, it's easy to place a reservation for a handful of trucks to be delivered in many months, if not years, that will operate on electric technology with significant uncertainty and costs surrounding the charging infrastructure. But if companies really want to attain their carbon reduction goals in a cost-effective and immediate time frame RNG is the alternative more companies are taking seriously. When you add Amazon to the other large trucking and logistic companies, like UPS, Estes, and Matheson Mail Transportation, to the largest refuse companies in the U.S., like Waste Management, Republic Services, and Waste Connections, and transit agencies from L.A.

to Dallas to New York, all operating their fleets on RNG, it's easy to understand my optimism. The increased commitment to RNG is being demonstrated all the way through the supply chain from the significant investment in RNG supply at dairies by venture capital firms and large energy companies, through the other end with new natural gas projects. Since our RNG Day in January, Werner Enterprises, one of the country's top trucking companies, announced that it will be working with Cummins to validate the new 15-liter natural gas engine. I had a lengthy conversation a few weeks ago with the president of Cummins Engine Business, Srikanth Padmanabhan, and he reiterated their enthusiasm about the highly anticipated 15-liter engine that is expected to be available in 2024, as well as the newly available 6.7-liter natural gas engine that is very popular in the straight trucks sector.

Cummins' commitment to their natural gas engine program is a strong endorsement of the lowest carbon transportation fuel solution. Our transit business had big wins recently with the extension of our agreements with the large agencies in Los Angeles and Washington D.C., which represent over 1,800 buses between the two. We also added a new transit customer with Golden Empire which is expected to use 1 million gallons of RNG a year to operate 100 buses in Bakersfield, California. Refuse companies continue to expand with RNG highlighted by our good customer, Republic Services, upgrading fueling stations in Huntington Beach and Anaheim, California to accommodate additional trucks.

We also signed recent fueling agreements with Suburban Disposal in New York, Waste Connections in Illinois, and we extended our relationship with Valley Vista Services in Southern California with an RNG supply agreement of an expected 14 million gallons over 10 years. In addition, we were awarded a 10-year extension from our longtime customer, EJ Harrison, in Ventura, California to provide an estimated 8 million gallons of RNG for their fleet of refuse trucks. This is a sampling of fleets which are easily and affordably meeting their goals to reduce carbon emissions and address climate change today. But we also realize the future will include other technologies and Clean Energy has plans to participate in those as well.

As we've previously mentioned, we have already expanded in hydrogen fueling highlighted by the award from Foothill Transit in October for us to build a station for the agency's fuel cell buses to be powered by hydrogen made with RNG. So I mentioned during the RNG Day presentation, we joined BP and others in investing in a company, BTR Energy, that has developed a software that will allow electric vehicles to track the electric molecules produced from RNG. You know, it's interesting to note that the lowest carbon intensity score that an EV can obtain with electricity produced by solar or wind is zero. But with electricity produced from RNG, depending on the source of the RNG, it is possible for an electric vehicle to have a much lower carbon intensity score in the negative hundreds.

BTR Energy software will also allow the OEM of the EV to participate in low-carbon fuels programs. To wrap it up, I hope you can understand why we are so pleased with our performance last quarter and last year. And because of our recent expansion in RNG supply, which will allow us to leverage our large RNG fueling distribution network, we believe Clean Energy is well-positioned to continue to lead the transportation industry into a cleaner, low-carbon future. And with that, I'll hand the call back to Bob.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Thank you, Andrew. I'll recap 2021 and then move into our guidance for 2022. We had a good fourth quarter, particularly with good volumes. And volumes, as we all know, are very important.

But we did see approximately about a $2.5 million negative impact from sustained lower LCFS pricing during the quarter. Our GAAP net loss for the fourth quarter was 2.4 million or $0.01 a share, while on a non-GAAP basis, we had net income for the fourth quarter of 6.4 million or $0.03 a share. Our GAAP net loss for the year was 93 million, which was higher than our guidance of 86 million due to noncash unrealized losses on our Zero Now fuel hedge, some additional stock comp related to stock awards occurring in December, and the lower LCFS pricing that I mentioned. Adjusted EBITDA for the fourth quarter of 2021 was 18 million versus 13.6 million a year ago.

And for the year, adjusted EBITDA was 57 million. Now, we had -- we maintained and kept our guidance of 60 to 62 on the adjusted EBITDA, which we absolutely felt that at least, at a minimum, the lower end of that range of 60 was achievable, had we seen better LCFS pricing during the fourth quarter. But 57 million is a good number. And we're excited about that and certainly an improvement over last year, which was 45 million.

Our revenues of 92 million for the fourth quarter of 2021 were in line with expectations and reflected higher effective prices caused by higher fuel pump prices and continued higher rent prices. Our effective margin per gallon for the fourth quarter was $0.27 a gallon. And for the year, it ended at $0.26 per gallon, which was at the high end of our range at the beginning of the year that we cited of $0.22 to $0.26. We saw a nice progression upward in our margin per gallon during the year, reflecting more trucking and fleet fuel gallons, including the effect of more RNG and higher rent pricing during 2021.

As Andrew pointed out, we ended the year with 229 million of cash and investments and 39 million of debt. We generated 41 million in cash flow from operations and spent 23 million on property and equipment. But we continue to be in good financial shape as we look forward. Looking forward to 2022, as I mentioned on our RNG Day presentation, I would go into a little more detail on the 2022 guidance.

So first off, there is no change to the financial metrics that we presented on January 26th at the RNG Day. We're estimating 454 million gallons for volume, a GAAP revenue of $400 million which -- that includes an estimated 44 million of contra revenue related to the Amazon warrants, a GAAP net loss of $57 million, and adjusted EBITDA of $65 million. One of the largest assumptions to be clear on is we have included approximately 21 million of alternative fuel tax credit in our forecast for 2022. And we are, you know, bullish on that becoming a law during the year it was addressed.

They, in fact, even changed that to a five-year runout on that. So we've included -- we've added almost -- you know, we've added it literally every year. Timing's the question. So we're assuming that comes into law in the third quarter of 2022.

The important point here is that we're not anticipating any AFTC revenues. We wouldn't be recording any for the first two quarters, you know, which is about 5 million a quarter. And then we would have a retroactive pickup in the third quarter, if that is when in fact this is passing, goes into law. And we'll kind of keep an eye on that.

We have refined our rent and LCFS price assumptions. Back January 26th, we were assuming for 2022, $2.85 rent and $165 LCFS. And we've changed that to be rents really closer to say $3 and the LCFS around $155. There's no change in the combined total of rent LCFS revenue as a result of these kind of slight adjustments, if you will.

But we did want to sync those up, the rent and the LCFS pricing, a little more with our current views. Our volume margin per gallon for 2022 averages out to about $0.28 a gallon. So that's up $0.02 a gallon from 2021. On 454 million gallons, that's around 9 million of increment to our gross margin.

And this is really coming from added truck and fleet fuel gallons, as well as the RNG helps drive that margin per gallon. And then, of course, just an overall increase in gallons over last year will drive added margin dollars. Our SG&A is forecasted to be $101 million, which includes approximately 20 million of stock compensation. Excluding the stock compensation, our SG&A is up from 2021 by about 8%.

The rise in the cash portion of SG&A is principally in personnel related to the growth in RNG activities, including supporting the supply side and the addition of Amazon and other new and expanding customers in our distribution network. Now, staying with the operating expenses, as Andrew mentioned, we're also looking ahead at various alternative fuel technologies. I have included approximately 4 million to 5 million of, I'll call it, development skunk works operating expenses, not SG&A. This is 4 million to 5 million that we anticipate incurring in 2022.

And depending on how that research and the development goes on those alternative fuel technologies, we'll see how that goes beyond 2022. At the moment, I have not included any of these types of costs beyond 2022. And then, looking at adjusted EBITDA of 65 million versus 2021 of 57 million, really, 2022 is a year of putting more pieces together to facilitate the implementation of our RNG strategy, but we're able to do this and still improve financially. So remember, as some examples, 2021 included our last year of the earnout from our sale of our upstream to BP.

You know, that was 3.9 million that's in the 2021 number, $3.9 million that's in 2021 that is not in '22. We're absorbing an incremental $2 million of cost as our share of the start-up cost at the R&D joint ventures, and we're also adding about $6 million in SG&A cash expenses, which I alluded to, primarily in personnel and support. But yet, you know, our adjusted EBITDA is going to improve from '21. Which is why the margin per gallon, the additional volume, and the $0.02 per gallon is very important to help support that.

On the RNG Day metrics, we did give indication of cash flow and capital expenditures, so we're planning still $57 million in operating cash flow, $71 million of capex supporting the distribution side of the business, with maybe $40 million to $50 million of that representing expanding our network to accommodate Amazon volumes. And then we plan to spend up to $195 million as contributions into the RNG joint ventures. We were also in the process of raising a modest amount of debt at the corporate level, but we have flexibility, of course, with that because of -- we have a fair amount of cash on the balance sheet, and we do have some discretion on the speed at which we make these investments. And with that, operator, I'll open the call to questions.

Questions & Answers:

Operator

[Operator instructions] And the first question comes from Eric Stine with Craig-Hallum.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

Hi, Andrew. Hi, Bob.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Hi, Eric.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Hi, Eric.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

Hey. So you mentioned the Amazon effect. You know, I'm just curious if you can go into that a little bit more in detail, you know, whether, I would assume, that's more in conversations, when you would anticipate that that might flow through to actual truck orders. And then, you know, obviously, there'd be a little bit of a lag but when you might see volumes as a result.

And then, curious, your thoughts on whether, you know, Amazon is having some success or is pushing this into their supply chain.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Right. So, Eric, you know, I think we're seeing that now, right? We're having conversation with and we know that Cummins is having and the OEMs are having discussions with large fleets now. And so I think you'll begin to see, we're already seeing some uptake in adoption of natural gas right now with some of these large fleets. And I think, you know, the announcements by some of these fleets, for instance, the Werner one working with Cummins.

You know, we hadn't seen these kinds of announcements really before so I think they're really important. Also, I think it's important to note that, you know, as Amazon has fielded now, well, that announcement, or at least that tweet or text that got out in late last year of the thousands, so there's more than that many trucks now. Those trucks are operating extremely well, and they're getting great visibility. And they're moving about essentially in, you know, 30 states across the country at our stations, and they're getting a lot of use and a lot of visibility.

And, you know, I think all of that bodes very well. So I think the Amazon effect is happening as we speak. The interest in the RNG is -- never seen that really higher. All of our customers right now want that.

And that is part and parcel, you know, as we talk about natural gas engines or adoption of new trucks and all, it's always hand in glove with the RNG. And so I think all of this is, is because of the success of the Amazon program. We're seeing it right now.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

OK, got it. Maybe just one other. You -- I think on your RNG Day, one of the areas, you know, as a key part of your five-year plan was switching out O&M customers over to RNG. And, you know, maybe just what you're seeing early success there, how are you going to anticipate that playing out but then taking it another step? You know, what are the economics look like? Because I would assume that because it's for someone else who owns the station, they would share in those economics as well.

So there actually is an economic benefits were you to make this switch, which I think was something like $90 million of your five-year EBITDA plan.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Right. So Eric, I'll have Bob join me here as well. But, you know, there's a couple parts to that. So for those that didn't see the RNG Day, you know, there's one concept which was moving RNG negative fuel in California to our existing infrastructure that is already providing RNG but it might be landfill gas.

And so there's a pickup. Certainly, when we own the supplies, dramatic pickup. OK? Now, what is -- your question though started with -- and that number got to be around $70 million to overtime, $70 million to $90 million type number. And I think I was describing it to Wall Street Journal, didn't sound very articulate.

I said it was like magic. But, you know, we're already providing that fuel, and so it's really switching in the other feedstock. And we have -- this is better for the bottom line. OK.

But the way your question started out was the -- our O&M customers. So now, this is transit customers and refuse customers, where we may be providing operation of a station. And we get paid for that on a gallon, but those are good margins for gallons, we've said many, many times, but low, low, right? Low cents per gallon, let's put it that way. Good margins, low revenue per gallon for us.

So when we switch in RNG, become a fuel supplier to those customers, which we've always, you know, wanted to be able to do, yes, we do split that with the customer. And if they do own the station, in these cases, they do most often, yeah, they'll get a larger share than we will. But it's a big upgrade on our margin per gallon going from a fuel provider with our downstream share in addition to our operation and maintenance. So it's a big pickup for us, it's also a pickup for the customer.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

Got it. And so -- yeah, I was just getting at -- that answered it, but I was just getting at the fact that, I mean, that's a big part of your EBITDA pickup. But I mean there is certainly incentives for the customer to do that.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Oh, absolutely.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

Because the economic is going to be better for them as well. OK.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Absolutely.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

Got it.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

And not to mention that it helps them in the area where they operate, right? They go to a sustainable fleet, right? So that was in less than less than any of these operators. They're all under pressure. So that's exactly what happened. You know, I'd like to think that New York City Transit was progressive when they put the natural gas buses in versus diesel buses many years ago.

And we were doing operation and maintenance. But when they asked us to provide the fuel, they got a pickup, they got to share in that, and as we did once we began providing the fuel other than just operations and maintenance. And they're now an envied sustainability, you know, climate change contributor there in New York City.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

That's just a drop in, right?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Right.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

So that's our that's our own rendition of a drop-in fuel is

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Right.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

The existing natural gas transits then now get to drop in a renewable.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Eric, like I said it's like magic.

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

All right, thanks a lot.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

You bet.

Operator

All right. Thank you. And the next question comes from Rob Brown with Lake Street Capital Markets.

Rob Brown -- Lake Street Capital Markets -- Analyst

Good afternoon, Bob and Andrew.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Hey, Rob.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Hi, Rob.

Rob Brown -- Lake Street Capital Markets -- Analyst

Wanted to get an update on the number of RNG projects that you have underway. I think, months ago, you had about five. How is that changing? And where are you at in terms of signing up new RNG projects?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

No, it's a good question. We have about seven farms under construction. We have 10 signed LOI, so those, you know, are in the process. They're not under construction yet, but they're headed that way.

Then we have 15 to 20 projects I sort of say are behind those in the pipeline. You know, we've had substantial -- we're doing substantial due diligence and discussions with the developers and the farmers. Those 15 to 20 projects will involve 50 dairies. So there's a lot happening right now.

And that's a little bit of an increase from 30 days ago, but, you know, it's in line with what we talked about on January 26the. More projects under construction now than what I talked about in January.

Rob Brown -- Lake Street Capital Markets -- Analyst

OK, great, great, great progress. On the CFS pricing that you talked about, Bob, how is that changing? And what's sort of the market dynamics there? And do you have a sense of -- you know, it's hard to predict, of course, but do you have a sense of maybe how that changes over the year?

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

You know, we got to have it on average, around 155. And, you know, it's a little bit lower than that. So we're anticipating that it -- you know, there's room to move up there, but, you know, we felt like it was probably at -- 165 might be a little bit aggressive. And so I think, you know, I don't know that we see radical change there.

I mean, it can. I mean, again, we thought in the fourth quarter, there could be a move upward if there was, you know, some action by CARB, and they're kind of scoping workshops and whatnot. But I think we're, you know, kind of fairly steady at about where we think it is, the 155 on average.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

I think, Rob, we tend to be longer term kind of constructive and bullish on the pricing of the low-carbon fuel standard. You know, that's not to say we see some, you know, dramatic fly up here. But we think it's the scoping. And they look at the success of the program, and they look at the increased obligations in the outer years, we think that the price of the LCFS could likely move up a bit.

So, you know, we thought it was prudent to price it in here sort of at where we see it today rather than speculate. But I would think -- our team believes and we, of course, have some experts to help us on this, we think sort of over the middle term that, you know, we're constructive on the pricing and think that it could move up a little bit, too.

Rob Brown -- Lake Street Capital Markets -- Analyst

OK. Great, thanks. I think I'll turn it over.

Operator

Thank you. And the next question comes from Manav Gupta with Credit Suisse.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Hey, Bob and team. I just -- quick question was I'm going back to the analyst day -- RNG Day. And I think you had indicated eventually you would like to be in that about 105 million gallon range by 2026.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Yup.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

I'm just doing some rough math. Would it be fair to say you would probably need somewhere like 50, 55 dairies, somewhere to get to that 105 number --105 million gallon number?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

We're crushing there.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Around there. I mean, you're at 2 million a dairy so --

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

It's around there. You know, it kind of depends. So, Manav, think with me on the terms of the clusters, OK? So, you'll have a dairy but you bring in satellite dairies, you know, so it could actually be higher than that, right? Because you'll be drawing up smaller, local, you know, smaller dairies. But, you know, you're -- as I said, these 15 to 20 project right now contemplate 15 dairies.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Could be higher.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

So, you know, you -- so it could be

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Could be higher than 5 million.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Higher, for the whole, for the 105 million, it could be -- in terms of dairies, it could be higher than that.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

OK, fine. Now, the second quick follow-up there is, when we go to the cash statements that you provided on the RNG Day, it appears at some point not only do the JV start paying down the debt, they actually start paying you some distribution. So can you confirm that at what point do the JVs actually start making enough cash so they actually start paying you guys some form of distribution?

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. And that is -- I want to say it's like 25, 26. So, you now, yeah, where you're seeing the debt reduction is because we're seeing distributions come in from --

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

From the JVs.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

From the JVs because the -- and it's principally 25 and 26. There could be a little bit in 24, the more meaning --

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Perfect. And then the last quick question here is, you were doing about 13 million, 14 million in EBITDA. Now, you've hit over 18. Next year's guidance is doing more like 16.

And I think you mentioned a few factors why it's going to be moving down from 18 to 16. But if you could just help us bridge the gap why we're moving down from 18 million a quarter now EBITDA to about the 16 number?

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. So in the fourth quarter that 18, we had about 4 million of earnout in the 18 in the fourth quarter from our sale of upstream supply to BP. And we've had that for five years, and which was a question that we had about, actually, how are we going to get to -- we were anticipating we could get to 20 in the fourth quarter. And we got to 18.

So -- you know, and then I mean our -- so we should not see that kind of radical bump in the fourth quarter for something like that. Our volume tends to grow, you know, during the year, I mean, because of fleet rollouts and adoption. It just -- , you know, it doesn't all happen, say, January 1. And then I think the other thing that I was just being careful with on the 16 million is that has the alternative fuel tax credit in there.

But you don't want to put that evenly in Q1 and Q2 for the alternative.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

OK.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

So you ended up having to -- you would end up taking the alternative fuel tax credit so, let's say, out of the 65. So you would get to kind of 40 -- what's that, 44 million, which is kind of 11-ish, you know, Q1, Q2. But then Q3, you're going to see about 11-plus, maybe even 15 million of AFTC. And then 11 plus 5 in Q4.

So, you know, I don't give guidance on the quarters, though.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

No, that was actually super helpful. Thank you so much.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Or maybe I just --

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Thank you.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Maybe I just did.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Thank you so much.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

What I considered, Manav, was "I was doing math." Thank you.

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Thank you so much.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

But it is important. Thanks for the question. Because, you know, the AFTC in a quarter is significant. If you just do the math, you're -- you know, you're not going to be happy.

So --

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

I'll turn it over. Thank you, guys.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. And -- OK.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

That's enough, Bob.

Operator

Thank you. And the next question comes from Pavel Molchanov with Raymond James.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

Thanks for taking the question. You guys mentioned just a few moments ago the need to kind of back out the IT -- or the AFTC in the first couple quarters of the year. Going back to what we talked about during the webinar one month ago, any incremental thoughts on whether the tax credit will be revived in some form in this congressional session?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

So I think, Pavel, just for the group, I think you're saying did -- would they change it to add in some sort of renewable natural gas credit? That was your thing?

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

I just meant more broadly, is there any in the last six weeks, since you did the last investor call --

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Oh.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

Is there any movement in D.C. on the reinstatement of the tax credit?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

I don't think there's been any movement in D.C. on any of piece of legislation in the last six weeks. Do you? So, no, I don't think so. I really think -- I mean, other than Supreme Court justice nominee or something, I don't think there's been any.

I think that the House is trying to figure out just what pieces of a bill that they can assemble. They haven't decided on that yet and just what style that'll take. But I don't think so yet, Pavel. Now, that doesn't lead me to believe that it's not going to happen.

I still feel like, as I mentioned before, that our particular alternative fuel tax credit, among many other things, OK, because it's not the only thing, will end up being in some sort of tax title at some point when they begin to fashion different pieces of legislation. And, you know, that remains to be seen how that all comes together.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

OK.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

But it will. It should. The reason I feel pretty confident on it is, you know, we've had that tax credit for the last, I don't know, 10 or 12 years, can't remember which. And it was identified during -- with the two chairman from the tax committees in the Senate, the ranking in the minority as one of the noncontroversial titles.

So it doesn't appear to be in kind of the lightning-rod bucket. And so I think that when they figure out kind of how this whole thing is going to come together, I'm guessing later in the year, you'll see that as part of some sort of tax title at some point.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

OK. Maybe follow up with kind of a macro question. So we're almost exactly two years from the start of the pandemic. And you guys have very good insights into what's happening in fleet-based transport of the market segments that you sell into, so, you know, refuse trucks, urban transit, airports, maybe a few other markets.

Is everything back to pre-COVID levels or not quite?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, I would say we -- it's interesting because you and I have talked about this before. We did see a little bit of a, you know, late December, it's kind of hard to tell because those holidays put a little -- our transit customers, especially holidays, impacts it. A little more significantly in that week or so than you would think. But I think we detect -- in late December and early January, we saw a little bit of the omicron.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

There was some omicron.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

There was a five-week, four-week blip. But having said that, I would say that airports in general, as they came up into December, just about right back. And transit as well. We've may have seen three or four weeks there at the end, last couple of December and early January, where it came off just a tad.

But I think to answer your question is, yeah. It looks to me like we're back to pre-COVID levels. All of our sectors came back.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

OK, including airports?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. You know, it's -- they can still be off a tad, but they're pretty close.

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

Right. OK. No, great insights. Thank you, guys.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yup, you bet.

Operator

Thank you. And the next question comes from Greg Wasikowski of Webber Research.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Hey, good afternoon, guys. How you doing?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Good.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

How are you, Greg?

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Great. Doing great, thanks. A couple higher level questions on fleet transition activity and then one on hydrogen. I'll start with the fleet transitions.

Just curious, outside of regions with the LCFS credit programs, in what states or specific regions or municipalities are you seeing the most fleet transition activity from diesel to gas? And then like similar question but along the lines of the application, you know, whether it be transit bus, refuse truck, or, you know, specific heavy-duty class of truck.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Well, OK. So, generally, I would say the fleet transition at all the fleets is, we always see quite a bit of interest in Texas. In the Southeastern United States is where you see a lot of trucking. And then in the Northeastern United States, we particularly see a lot of interest on the refuse side.

And so it kind of -- I kind of almost named all the parts of the country, but Texas, Southeastern United States, Northeast, a lot activity on refuse. Trailing that a little bit is the Midwest. And then of course, the West. The West is always strong, Southwestern United States.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Right.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

I mean, that's strong, but that was covered in your low carbon fuel. Now, we are seeing uptake on RNG in 30-some odd states right now. So it's not just a California thing. And it's not just, you know, regional.

It's beginning to be pieced together all across country.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Yeah, OK. No, I appreciate that. And then maybe similar but asking in a different way. What's the again -- in the non-LCFS states and regions, what's the main catalyst for end users, fleet owners in the decision transitioning from diesel to gas? You know, is the primary focus on the price of diesel or is it CNG accessibility, internal decarbonization goals, public pressure? Like, what are you seeing the most outside of that LCFS states and regions?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Well, no, you've identified it. I mean, I think it's always been -- it's been similar. The sustainability and low carbon pieces, obviously, is a bigger driver today than before. But underlying it, I think you're right, Greg.

Underlying it though is always a sense of economics. You don't often see -- you certainly don't see private fleets just step into something knowingly it's a lot more expensive. Now, they're beginning to get more support from their either their customers or their -- the public on their sustainability goals. And so they're willing to -- I think they're willing to, you know, take let's call it more risk, and more cost.

Now, public transit and public agencies are certainly being -- for instance, DFW, right? It's very important for them to try to mitigate and have what they consider to be one of the cleanest, low-carbon airports in the world, right? And the transportation piece of this can be as very important to them. There's not a lot they can do about airplanes. So the transportation part of it was very important. And that's why they really pushed hard on RNG.

And I think our friends in Dallas Area Rapid Transit think the sustainability part was really important for them to go to natural gas, and now RNG. So, you know, it's incremental a little bit. Cost is always important. But this environmental piece is getting to be a bigger, bigger driver.

So I don't know that that helps you at all. But we're seeing a lot of that.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

They understand. I mean, you know, the rent is up. That's a federal program. So --

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Right.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

[Inaudible]

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Right. OK. No, that's helpful. And then one more on hydrogen, if I could.

Andrew, you've spoken about hydrogen and fuel cells in transportation in the past. But I was wondering if you could compare and contrast hydrogen fuel cells versus hydrogen combustion. Cummins spoke about it during their analyst day, hydrogen ice. And some other players have talked about it for certain applications.

Does that come up in your conversations with customers and end users at all? And then from CLNE's perspective, you know, do you have any preference one way or the other, if it's a fuel cell electric vehicle or, you know, through burning hydrogen directly? Or, you know, is it really all the same to you?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

First, it never comes up with the customer. So I don't know who's interested in it. But it's -- we don't ever hear that much from a customer. Occasionally, you'll hear it from a transit customer.

And I always want to remind you why that is. And it's -- I think they feel it's a part of their duty because they're funded by 100% from the federal government on these kinds of projects, is that they're a testbed. And so you see transit agencies do this. We've got five new -- we've got five more RFPs coming down the track right now.

It's usually about 15 to 20 vehicles out of a fleet of several hundred. Super expensive tests. These are hydrogen fuel cell buses. So you'll see the transit agencies do it because they think that's part of their social compact with getting free money from the Feds is to be able to do this kind of thing.

Private sector is not serious about it. Yeah, so we don't really hear that. Now, in terms of the -- look, you know, I'm not an expert on all this. But I have said, and I do think we'll end up being somewhat right on the fact that we think that RNG will be a very viable green, renewable feedstock.

And it's a bit -- will be available using the nation's pipeline system. You know, this idea that you're somehow going to put in a new hydrogen delivery system, I just don't think that's going to happen. I think that that could be 50 years in the making. By the time you build plants, and you start hauling hydrogen around pipelines of hydrogen, I mean, that is a really a tall task.

So I think the way that it will happen in the bridging to it for hydrogen will be through a fuels -- fuel that will be transported using the delivery system that's already put in place in the United States. And I have to think in the early next five, 10, 15 years, that'll be RNG, that will be reformed at the stations. And I'm not sure, Greg, if it'll end up being somehow put in a combusted as a, you know, hithane, a blend of hydrogen, or if it ends up being put into a fuel cell.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

OK. Very clear.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Others are better [Inaudible]. I think the RNG will be the feedstock for the foreseeable future. And somehow, maybe it gets blended with some hydrogen, you know, perhaps.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

All right.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

This hydrogen thing is very expensive.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Yeah, you know, I --

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

I mean, it's a -- you know, people are kind of casual about it, but it's very expensive. I mean, so I look at the -- you know, we're -- we have 50 salesmen that talk to fleet operators every day that are very interested in the bottom line, and I don't see how hydrogen fits into that at all.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

All right. Well, I always appreciate your color on it, Andrew. Thank you.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

You bet. OK. Thanks.

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Thank you guys very much. I'll turn it over.

Operator

Thank you. And the next question comes from Craig Shere with Tuohy Brothers.

Craig Shere -- Tuohy Brothers -- Analyst

Hi. I just want to clarify on this JV distribution, so upstream to the partners by the decade '25, '26, maybe starting at the end of '24. How should we think about this in terms of self-funding? And any decline rate on equity contribution the partners will have to make over the next couple of years?

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Well, Craig, I think we kind of -- I'll say, we laid that out somewhat in on the RNG Day. So, you know, at some point there, we probably will get to self-funding. And, you know it's kind of at the portfolio project level, all right? I think in our model, you know, at least what we laid out for the five-year plan is we were being fairly simplistic and not getting --we were not going down a variety of kind of capital structure avenues. And so, we kept it fairly simple of cash needed, cash in, cash comes out, we could pay it.

But frankly, you know, we'll be able to lever projects and so there's not -- not in anticipation on our part of, you know, kind of blowing up this case with added equity and that sort of analysis. So -- but we weren't going to lay out five-year capital structure plan on that. And we just kind of took their EBITDA, and it's just -- you know, that's distribution available to the corporate, in which case, we'll pay down some -- we'll start paying down corporate debt. We've kind of funded it through, you know, at the Clean Energy corporate level, would really be kind of how we would lever those deals.

That could be at the project someday.

Craig Shere -- Tuohy Brothers -- Analyst

Gotcha. And this ratio, I don't know if this is what you had in mind originally. But it sounds like it, you know, it could be, you know, 3 or 4 to 1 on the projects and number of dairies feeding into the projects. Are you finding, as you get deeper and deeper in this with your JV partners, that you're finding more and more ways to lower the all-in unit costs delivered? Just getting more operating leverage than originally thought.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Well, I don't know. Yeah, I mean we think --

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

We're looking. I don't know, it's a little early on.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, I think it's a little early, Craig. I mean, we -- our view is there'll be some synergies and some efficiencies. I think some of these early projects have been right in the middle of supply chain and steal, you know, some increased costs. So our hunch is and our view is that some of those costs will come in.

And I feel fairly certain of that. But I would say through the projects that have been underway in the last three, four months, that we've come up with dramatic cost reductions, you know.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. But we're certainly -- we're on that path of that kind of mindset and thinking and hiring the right people. Very mindful of this is -- this should be kind of repetitive. I mean, all the farms and families around those are different, of course.

But, you know, the basic setups, I think have room for --

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

The industry is trying to standardize, tanks, and the membrane technologies and the cleanup technologies. All of that's coming into play, we did that. We've done this on the station side years ago. It used to be that every station was built.

It wasn't until that we understood the inlet pressure at a given location that we then went and design the compressor, totally unique. It was a work of art, each one. And, you know, we stopped that 15 years ago, 20 years ago. And the same thing will happen here as we get better at it and do more of these.

Craig Shere -- Tuohy Brothers -- Analyst

Fair enough. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question comes from Matthew Marra with Tudor, Pickering, Holt.

Matthew Marra -- Tudor, Pickering, Holt -- Analyst

Hey, good morning, Andrew and Bob. Bob, I was hoping you could share Clean's revenue from the LCFS either in the fourth quarter, I don't know, you might have a full year number. I think that was -- it was 5.7 million in Q3. Do you have the Q4 number?

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

It was 3.8.

Matthew Marra -- Tudor, Pickering, Holt -- Analyst

Great, thank you. And then, unfortunately, it looks like the New Mexico LCFS bill failed in the state Senate this week after passing their state House earlier in the week. I know it's hard to predict politics, but are you expecting any other states to pass an LCFS program this year? And if so, which ones are on your radar?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Well, I was so -- I'm still hopeful that New York, they're wrestling with it now. This is not easy there either. They're in the throes of it. Looks to me, like we have a fairly nice setup in terms of co-sponsors in both the House and the Senate there, the assembly and the Senate.

But we have more work to do there with the governor and with particular governing chairman there. So more there. I would say, it was New Mexico and New York that were the closest in terms of, you know, ready-to-pass type legislation. And then there's six or eight -- I don't have it right here in front of me, Matthew, you know, there's -- you know, we've had discussions and our industry associations and players have had discussions in Illinois and Michigan and other states, New Jersey and others.

But I'd say they're all a year behind. You know, this -- I think the way we should all think about it is that these are likely -- these are likely kind of two-year type bills. You know, look, you're putting in a whole new regime of regulation and obligations for industry. And also this isn't like passing a, you know, seatbelt mandate or, you know, a motorcycle helmet mandate.

I mean, there's a little more to it than that on this, and lots of interests at stake. And so it's reasonable to think that these are -- you know, will take some fulsome discussion and often in state legislatures that takes two years.

Matthew Marra -- Tudor, Pickering, Holt -- Analyst

Got it. Thank you very much.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

You know, there has been -- maybe this is a good place to put it in. I am starting to read for the first time a carbon, you know, like an RFS, a carbon fuel credit system national. That is starting to percolate up from the industry associations to the different groups in Congress. And I'm imagining, next stop, administration.

There'll be a lot of work to be done there, too. But that's the first -- I've always wondered why you wouldn't have sort of a national federal carbon fuel program, like the RIN. That sort of makes sense to me. And, you know, just this week, I'm starting to read about some of the industry association making those pitches to members of Congress and the administration.

So stay tuned on that, too.

Matthew Marra -- Tudor, Pickering, Holt -- Analyst

Great, thank you.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yup.

Operator

Thank you. And the next question comes from Jason Gabelman with Cowen.

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

Yeah, hey. Thanks for taking my questions. First, I wanted to ask about the RNG production ramp-up that you provided during the RNG Day. There was a dark green bar showing the RNG that's under LOIs.

Can you just discuss what kind of rate of conversion you have from LOIs to getting these projects executed and into the construction phase?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

We know early in this. We've had a very high hit rate, 90%

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

Got it. Is there -- I mean, would you say that a lot of the farms that you're pitching to, you see a lot of competition on them? Or are you mostly the only company in the room?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

No, we see -- no, we're seeing competition. You know, I wouldn't say, you know, it's not quite like, you know, RFP. But no, we're -- these farmers have heard from land -- let's call them the land men and women and developers. You know, I think that Wall Street Journal story the other day talked about somebody --

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

Yeah.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Saying that the particular farmer had 10 different people. And so we're seeing some of that. But, you know, what I said on RNG Day, I think, is true. And, you know, humbly, we like our go-to-market sort of face here.

You know, we're in the business. We've been in the RNG business one way or another, not necessarily at the dairy level, but for a long time, 14 years. We've worked with our partners, Total and BP, in this business for a long time. Our partners have deep pockets.

And, you know, we have financial capability as well. We have a long-term offtake interest. A lot of these farmers have heard about us for a long time. So we have a reputation, and they know we have a national distribution system.

So we like -- you know, we're not really afraid of competing because we think we have a lot to offer. And we -- as you can tell by the pipeline and all that we've been in the business now nine months. And our hit rate, we are able to move nimbly. And so we like our -- we won't get every deal.

Of course not. But we like our conversion rate, and we like our chances.

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

Got it. I also wanted to ask about California's LCFS program. I know we previously discussed that the petition to remove RNG from the LCFS program was denied. But I believe it's still being discussed within the scoping plan that's ongoing this year.

Can you just talk about what you're hearing coming out of CARB right now and the appetite to amend, if at all, the carbon intensity or carbon -- or LCFS credits that are generated from RNG?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

You know, the last -- I think the most current thing that I've seen from the ARB, and we have people who worked this real closely, but the most current thing is two public statements from the ARB and one in the Gannett papers and the other in the Wall Street Journal saying they like the program.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

And it's working.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

And it's working. You know, now, they didn't have to say that, and they get those things cleared. And so I think that's a fairly strong public statement that happened in the last couple of days. Now, you know, look, the petition you're talking about is a letter from the environmental justice community, and that's not going to go away that you're going to see that continuing.

But what I think has happened on that particular interest, which is moving dairy farms out of the state of California, if you really want to understand what that really means is, you know, no dairy cows in California. That's what was really what we're trying to get at here, right? And so that was referred to the scoping, which is -- let's -- no, we deny your request here and let's talk about this later in another, you know, discussions format in another, you know period. So I think this probably is not the last we've ever heard of that. But I think the fact is that the program is working.

The situation is you're capturing a lot of methane that you otherwise weren't capturing. And so, you know, it's nothing like success here.

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

Got it. And if I could squeeze just one more in. Just want to ask if -- do you see any benefit in your business from California's cap-and-trade program? Are you able to capture any value, given that those credits are moving higher?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

I don't know.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Not really.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

I mean we're probably a little more on the receiving end of the cost, if you will, right?

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Right.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Because we have a little bit of some of our stuff like say our LNG plant and things like that, that come under cap-and-trade. And so we've -- you know, so -- but it's a hard one to, you know, necessarily complain about because, you know,

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Correct.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Frankly, I'm also quite happy when the LCFS is at 200.

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

Right.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

So, yeah. No, we're not benefiting from it, and it has been a little bit of a cost to us. But relatively speaking, we have a very small footprint when it comes to that. So we're not talking about really -- even, you know, really big bucks.

But, you know, we've noticed that.

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

All right, super. Thanks for all the answers.

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

OK. Thank you.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

OK. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. And this concludes the question-and-answer session. Now, I'd like to turn the floor over to Andrew Littlefair for any closing comments.

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Operator, thank you. And thank you all for joining us today. We look forward to updating you on our next quarter.

Operator

[Operator signoff]

Duration: 69 minutes

Call participants:

Robert Vreeland -- Chief Financial Officer

Andrew Littlefair -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Eric Stine -- Craig-Hallum Capital Group -- Analyst

Rob Brown -- Lake Street Capital Markets -- Analyst

Manav Gupta -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Pavel Molchanov -- Raymond James -- Analyst

Greg Wasikowski -- Webber Research -- Analyst

Craig Shere -- Tuohy Brothers -- Analyst

Matthew Marra -- Tudor, Pickering, Holt -- Analyst

Jason Gabelman -- Cowen and Company -- Analyst

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