Macerich (MAC) Q4 2022 Earnings Call Transcript

Macerich (MAC -1.30%)
Q4 2022 Earnings Call
Feb 07, 2023, 1:00 p.m. ET

Contents:

• Prepared Remarks
• Questions and Answers
• Call Participants

Prepared Remarks:

Operator

Greetings. Welcome to The Macerich Company fourth quarter 2022 earnings call. [Operator instructions] A question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. [Operator instructions] I'll now turn the conference over to your host, Samantha Greening.

You may begin.

Samantha Greening -- Director, Investor Relations

Thank you for joining us on our fourth quarter 2022 earnings call. During the course of this call, we'll be making certain statements that may be deemed forward-looking within the meaning of the safe harbor of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, including statements regarding projections, plans, or future expectations. Actual results may differ materially due to a variety of risks and uncertainties set forth in today's press release and our SEC filings, including the adverse impact of the novel coronavirus on the U.S., regional, and global economies and the financial condition and results of operations of the company and its tenants. Reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures are included in the earnings release and supplemental filed on Form 8-K with the SEC, which are posted on the investor section of the company's website at macerich.com.

Joining us today are Tom O'Hern, chief executive officer; Scott Kingsmore, senior executive vice president and chief financial officer; and Doug Healey, senior executive vice president of leasing. And with that, I'd like to turn the call over to Tom.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Samantha. We're pleased to report another strong quarter, with the majority of our operating metrics continuing to trend very positively. After a solid first three quarters of '22, we had a very strong fourth quarter. We saw robust retailer demand.

And although tenant sales were flat in the fourth quarter versus a very strong fourth quarter of '21, we were up 3% for the year. Our average sales per square foot for tenants under 10,000 square feet was $869, a 7% increase over 2021. We continue to see traffic at about 95% of pre-COVID levels, but tenant sales are exceeding pre-pandemic levels with year-to-date sales up 13% compared to the same period in 2019. The quarter continued to reflect retailer demand that is at a level that we have not seen since before the great financial crisis.

Some of the other fourth quarter highlights include occupancy, which ended the year at 92.6. That was a 110-basis-point improvement from the fourth quarter of '21 and a 50-basis-point sequential quarter improvement over the third quarter of '22. We continue to see strong leasing volumes, which, for the year, were in excess of '21 levels. For the quarter, we executed 261 leases for 900,000 square feet.

Doug will be providing more detail on that in a few moments. We saw same-center NOI growth of 2% in the fourth quarter compared to the fourth quarter of '21, which was a very strong quarter and a tough comp. FFO per share for the quarter came in at $0.53. For the year, FFO was $1.96, which was about 3% -- $0.03 ahead of consensus.

On January 27th, we declared a dividend of $0.17 per share, payable March 3rd to record holders of -- as of February 17th, '23. Since our last earnings call, we've had a significant amount of financing activity, which Scott will elaborate on shortly. The debt markets for our A-quality town centers is improving, and we're getting our deals done. We continue to focus on redevelopment and repositioning our top-quality centers.

Much of this work is mixed-use, diversification, and densification. Some examples of that include at Kierland Commons, we're moving forward with a 110-unit luxury apartment project which leverages a developable surface parking lot at this highly attractive open-air center. At Flatiron Crossing Broomfield, Colorado, in partnership with a national residential developer, we are planning a 330-unit luxury multifamily project centers around -- centered around 2.5 acres of public amenities. At Biltmore Fashion, we're advancing plans for a 10-story, 250,000-square-foot class-A office tower, including best-in-class retail and food and beverage.

Plans are also evolving for a 250-unit luxury apartment complex at Biltmore. At Scottsdale Fashion Square, we're moving forward with plans for multifamily, residential, and up to 500,000 square feet of Class A office. This is in addition to the remerchandising of the Nordstrom wing with luxury brands and dining, which is well underway. At our flagship, Tysons Corner Center, we're building upon the highly successful Phase 1 mixed-use development that brought Tysons Tower VITA in the Hyatt Regency to the center.

We are using a portion of our 2.4 million square feet of available entitlements to plan for another mixed-use project. Also recently, we announced the addition of Arte Museum at Santa Monica Place. Arte is an immersive digital art destination, which is expected to occupy 48,000 square feet of space on the third level of the property in the former Arclight theater space. Arte expects to attract 1 million visitors per year.

It's a great entertainment addition and a major traffic generator that will bring tremendous energy to the third level of Santa Monica Place. As Doug will elaborate on shortly, we continue to be pleased with the strength of the leasing environment. As expected, given the depth and breadth of the leasing demand, we've had a very robust leasing result in 2022. The leasing interest continues to come from a wide range of categories that includes health and fitness such as Life Time and Broadway in Scottsdale Fashion Square; food and beverage usage, including Pinstripes and Round1; entertainments such as Arte Museum; and sports such as SCHEELS and Dick's Sporting Goods; co-working, hotels such as Caesars Republic in Scottsdale; and multifamily projects at Kierland, Flatiron, and Tysons.

Interest continues at levels we've never seen before. Bankruptcies continue to be at a record low, and we continue to expect gains in occupancy and net operating income as we progress through '23. And now, I'll turn it over to Scott to discuss in more detail the financial results for the quarter, significant financing activity, and guidance for '23.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Thank you, Tom. Now, on to the highlights of the quarterly financial results. This morning, we posted solid operating results for the fourth quarter. Same-center NOI increased 2% versus the fourth quarter of 2021, excluding lease termination income.

For the year, same-center NOI increased 7.5% versus 2021, excluding lease termination income. This was consistent with our prior estimates and our prior guidance. This is the second straight year of NOI growth that has exceeded 7%, with 2021 same-center NOI growing 7.3% over 2020. FFO per share for the quarter was $0.53 and was $1.96 per share for 2022.

The quarterly result was equivalent to FFO per share during the fourth quarter of 2021, which was also $0.53 per share. Similar to our same-center NOI growth result, this FFO result was consistent with our prior estimates and prior guidance. FFO per share exceeded Street consensus, as Tom mentioned, by roughly $0.03 a share. Primary and offsetting factors contributing to this quarterly FFO per share increase -- or this quarterly FFO per share results are as follows.

One, we had a $7 million increase in straight line of rent due to straight line of rent from the Google lease at One Westside, as well as from straight line receivable write-offs during the fourth quarter of 2021 as we then finalized our remaining pandemic tenant-related receivables last year. Secondly, a $4 million increase from same-center NOI. And third, a $4 million relative improvement in valuation adjustments pertaining to our retailer investments, net of taxes. Offsetting these three positive factors were the following.

One, a $7 million increase in interest expense due to rising rates. Two, a $5 million quarterly decrease in FFO generated from land sales. And three, a $3 million decline in lease termination income. Onto guidance.

This morning, we issued our initial guidance for 2023 FFO, which is estimated in the range of $1.75 to $1.85 per share. Here are some details underlying the guidance. This FFO range includes an estimated same-center NOI growth range of 2% to 3%. This FFO range includes an estimated decline in lease termination income from 25 million in 2022 to a more normalized $10 million in 2023.

In terms of the quarterly cadence for 2023 FFO guidance, we expect 23% in each of the first and second quarters, 25% in the third quarter, and the remainder in the fourth quarter of 29%. Primary factors to reconcile between our 2022 actual FFO that we've just reported and this 2023 estimated FFO were as follows. Same-center NOI growth is estimated to contribute $0.08 of FFO. Secondly, $0.05 of FFO is estimated to come from a relative improvement in valuation adjustments pertaining to our retailer investments, net of taxes.

These factors are offset by a $0.21 increase in estimated interest expense due to rising rates. Secondly, a $0.07 decline at lease termination income. And then lastly, approximately a $0.02 decline in noncash straight line of rental income. To emphasize, our 2023 outlook continues to reflect healthy operating cash flow of roughly $315 million before payment of dividends.

More details of the guidance assumptions are included within the company's Form 8-K supplemental file -- financial information, specifically on Page 15, that was filed earlier this morning. Now, on to the balance sheet. We continue to make good progress in our financing pipeline. In early December, we closed a three-year extension of our $300 million CMBS loan on Santa Monica Place.

The loan extended -- the extended loan carries a very attractive floating rate of LIBOR plus 1.48%, which is converted to SOFR probably in the next two to three months. The loan now matures on December 9, 2025, including extension options. On January 3rd, as we turn the page on the calendar year, we closed a $370 million five-year refinance of the previous $363 million of combined loans that formerly encumbered the Green Acres campus, both on the mall and the tower center. Both of which were scheduled to mature in the first quarter of 2023.

This new CMBS loan bears a fixed interest rate of 5.9% as interest-only during the entire term and matures on January 6, 2028. The company's joint venture that owns Scottsdale Fashion Square is in the process of refinancing the existing $405 million mortgage loan. The new five-year loan is expected to be a fixed rate that will run. The loan balance will be $700 million, and that is expected to generate roughly $150 million of incremental liquidity to the company.

This CMBS loan is expected to close within the coming several weeks. At year-end, we had $512 million of available liquidity. Debt service coverage was a healthy 2.7 times. Net debt to forward EBITDA, excluding leasing costs at the end of the quarter, was 8.8 times.

Now, I'll turn it over to Doug to discuss the leasing and operating environment.

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Thanks, Scott. We closed out 2022 with very strong leasing metrics and leasing volumes. In fact, 2022 was a record leasing year dating back to before the global financial crisis when viewed on a same-center basis. Fourth quarter sales were basically flat versus fourth quarter 2021, but for the full year 2022, sales were up almost 3% when compared to the same period in 2021.

And given the very strong sales volumes we saw in 2021, it was a very difficult year to comp positively against. Sales per square foot as of December 31, 2022 were $869, down just a little from a record of 877 at the end of the third quarter. Trailing 12 leasing -- trailing 12-month leasing spread remained positive at 4% as of December 31, 2022. That's down from 6.6% last quarter and essentially flat when compared to December 31, 2021.

In the fourth quarter, we opened 226,000 square feet of new stores. For the full year 2022, we opened almost 900,000 square feet of new stores, which is just about on par with where we were during the same period in 2021. Notable openings in the fourth quarter include Anthropologie at Biltmore Fashion Park, Aritzia and Timberland at Fashion Outlets of Chicago, Free People at the Oaks, Freebird at Kierland Commons, Lululemon at SanTan Village, North Face at Washington Square, and three stories of JD Sports at Country Club Plaza, Scottsdale Fashion Square, and Victor Valley. In the luxury quarter -- luxury category, we opened Brunello Cucinelli, Dolce & Gabbana, and Gucci Men all at Scottsdale Fashion Square.

We also opened Shake Shack at Kings Plaza and Capital One Cafe at Country Club Plaza. In the digitally native and emerging brands category, we opened Alo Yoga at Kierland Commons, Brilliant Earth at Santa Monica Place, Everlane and Oak + Fort at Tysons Corner, Fabletics at Broadway Plaza and Chandler Fashion, and Vuori at Kierland Commons and Village at Corte Madera. Now, let's look at the new and renewal leases we signed in the first quarter -- or fourth quarter. In the fourth quarter, we signed 261 leases for just over 900,000 square feet.

For the full year 2022, we signed 974 leases for 3.8 million square feet. And as I mentioned earlier, 2022 was a record leasing year dating back to before the global financial crisis when viewed on a same-center basis. Our focus in the fourth quarter was in large part addressing our lease explorations, finalizing 2022, and getting a head start in 2023. In doing so, in the fourth quarter, we signed over 200 renewal leases with almost 100 different brands, totaling 640,000 square feet.

With that, we now have commitments on 52% of our 2023 expiring square footage, with another 27% in the letter of intent stage. These figures are virtually unprecedented at this early stage in the year. And given the noise and uncertainty that exist in the macroeconomic environment, I'm pleased with these statistics as we are basically taking a great deal of risk off of the table in 2023. 2022 is also a year of newness for us.

Bringing new, unique, and emerging brands was a major initiative for our leasing team and a way for us to really reimagine and differentiate our town centers from our competition. To that end, in 2022, we signed over 100 leases with 88 new-to-Macerich brands, totaling 440,000 square feet. Examples include Arte Museum, as Tom mentioned, Hermes, Balenciaga, Everlane, Oak + Fort, Parachute, Reformation, Work, Rothy's, and Samsung. That's just to name a few.

Turning to our leasing pipeline, at the end of the fourth quarter, we had 140 leases signed for just over 2 million square feet of new stores, which we expect to open in 2023, 2024, and early 2025. In addition to these signed leases, we're currently negotiating nearly 100 new leases for stores, totaling about 0.5 million square feet, which will also open in '23, '24, and early 2025. So, in total, that's over 2.5 million square feet of new store openings throughout the remainder of this year and beyond. And I want to emphasize, these are new leases with retailers not yet open and not yet paying rent.

And these numbers do not include renewals. And I can tell you that this leasing pipeline of new store openings now accounts for $62 million of incremental rent. And this represents approximately 8% of our current net operating income. And this incremental rent will continue to grow as we approve new deals and sign new leases.

So, to conclude, our leasing and operating metrics were very solid in 2022. Sales in 2022 outpaced 2021 by nearly 3%, and 2021 was a very strong year to comp against. Occupancy is up 110 basis points at the end of 2021 and up 410 basis points in at least seven quarters since our trough at the end of first quarter of 2021, and we expect this trend to continue throughout 2023. Leasing spreads remain positive and will also continue to improve as we increase occupancy.

There are no bankruptcies in our portfolio in the fourth quarter and only three for all of 2022. And bankruptcies overall are at their lowest level since 2015, which is consistent with our significantly reduced tenant watchlist. Leasing volumes were at record levels when viewed on a same-center basis. The result of which is a very strong, vibrant, and exciting pipeline of tenants slated to open this year and into '24 and even 2025.

I mentioned this last quarter, but I think it's worth repeating. Although the future remains unknown and despite the macroeconomic backdrop and looming potential recession, to date, we continue to see very little pullback from the retailers. And I think this is the result of the very healthy retail environment that exists today, as well as a testament to our best-in-class portfolio of super regional town centers. Now, I'll turn it over to the operator to open up the call for Q&A.

Questions & Answers:

Operator

Thank you. And at this time, we will be conducting a question-and-answer session. [Operator instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Derek Johnston with Deutsche Bank. Please proceed with your question.

Derek Johnston -- Deutsche Bank -- Analyst

Hi, everybody. Thank you. And thanks for the puts and takes in guidance, Scott. I was wondering, you know, what bad debt assumptions did you forecast in guidance, you know, given the macro backdrop and, you know, any background assumptions on retention ratios or insights or further insights into the 10 million in lease termination income would be helpful.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Thanks, Derek. Good afternoon. Bad debts, we expect to be very normal and not significant at all. And that's consistent with what we're seeing.

Again, Doug mentioned our -- excuse me, our tenant watchlist is very low. Incidence of bankruptcies are low. So, we don't expect a significant amount of bad debts. And that's kind of consistent also with the level of lease termination income dropping so significantly from 25 million last year down to an estimated 10 million this year.

There's just -- there's a lot less volatility. Those numbers obviously escalate during times of volatility. So, we expect, you know, that environment to be much more normal.

Derek Johnston -- Deutsche Bank -- Analyst

And then the retention ratio, the last part of that question.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. Thanks, Derek, for the memory jog. We have, you know, for the last several months, last several quarters, frankly, experienced very strong retention rates. You know, at times where we're remerchandising space, we're certainly choosing to take that offline and upgrade the merchandising mix, which results in some downtime.

But generally, we're seeing very strong retention rates as we've talked to retailers about renewing their fleet.

Derek Johnston -- Deutsche Bank -- Analyst

OK, thanks. And then let's shift to leasing, right? I mean, so, you know, clearly, the way it looks right now, according to the deal pipeline, you know, is shaping up pretty strongly. But are you seeing any shifts given the macro uncertainty? I mean, clearly, '21 and '22 were solid leasing years. But I guess the question is, are retailers still pushing through with expansion projects in your view? You know, how are leasing and rent negotiations progressing or changing early in '23? And I guess, lastly, you've been through downturns before.

Are you seeing any leading slowdown indicators at this point? You know, any further leasing info certainly is valuable.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Derek, I'll start, and then I'll pass it off to Doug. We're seeing actually quite a bit of interest, but I would say even a heightened sense of urgency to get deals documented and done. So, we just announced a big one at Santa Monica Place and there's two or three that are going to follow that are not subject to mentioning the retailer's name yet, but you'll be seeing announcements for the next few weeks. So, anything -- if anything, we're seeing a heightened sense of urgency to get deals done and documented and not a lot of pressure on rate, at least on the bigger, higher profile deals.

Doug, you might care to speak more of the, you know, inline spaces.

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Yeah. Hey, Derek. I mean, it's early days in 2023. But I can tell you, and I mentioned this in my remarks, that, to date, we really see no retailer pullback.

Retailers are honoring the leases they signed or opening the leases they signed. And they continue to negotiate the leases that are out. And I think, you know, if you think about it, we have a very, very healthy retailer community out there, environment. And so many of the retailers that were suffering pre-pandemic fell during the pandemic.

So, we're left with a lot of big public companies that are long-term in nature and are really being opportunistic when it comes to best-in-class real estate, which we have.

Derek Johnston -- Deutsche Bank -- Analyst

Thanks, guys. That's it for me.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Greg McGinniss with Scotiabank. Please proceed with your question. And Greg from Scotiabank, you're now live for questions.

Greg McGinniss -- Scotiabank -- Analyst

I apologize, I was on mute, rookie mistake. I apologize if I missed this in the opening remarks, but what is -- what's the land sales expectation built into 2023?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. Hey, Greg. 2022, we had about $0.09 of FFO from land sales, net of taxes. We still have a pipeline that we're executing on numerous transactions that are under contract.

If we're looking at 2023, I'd say that'll land somewhere between 40% to 50% or so of '22 levels.

Greg McGinniss -- Scotiabank -- Analyst

OK, great. Thanks. Then back to the leasing, on that pretty sizable pipeline that's expected to open up over the next few years here, I believe you said 2.5 million square feet, if I'm not mistaken. What's the net increase in NOI that's expected to benefit from that? And is that occupancy already reflected in that 92.9% just to check?

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Greg, the occupancy does reflect that pipeline. So, it's included in the 92.6. The pipeline of square footage is 2 million square feet. Although Doug is rapidly trying to add to that.

And it's a top priority for us to get that space, you know, signed. We've got to get it open because really the high fives come when the tenants start paying rent. And I think Scott or Doug may have mentioned that 62 million of incremental revenue top line, that may not all hit NOI because, obviously, we're in inflationary times and we're fighting some rising operating costs, but the vast majority of it will. So, I'd estimate, you know, we can see north of 55 million of NOI pickup as a result of getting those pipeline deals open and paying rent.

Greg McGinniss -- Scotiabank -- Analyst

OK, so that was a net number. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Craig Schmidt with Bank of America. Please proceed with your question.

Craig Schmidt -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Thank you. One, I'm just wondering, are you still getting signs from the consumer that they want more restaurants at your property, and how has the success rate been of restaurants that you have opened in the last couple of years?

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Hey, Craig, it's Doug. Yes, restaurants, food and beverage, fast cas continues to be a huge priority for us. In fact, food and beverage and restaurants were the highest comping in terms of sales in our portfolio in 2022. So, there is a lot of demand.

And we are seeing -- if you read what's out there, we are seeing a shift in sales from traditional apparel and retail to services, including travel and including restaurants. So, to answer your question, yes, we're seeing it in the demands there.

Craig Schmidt -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Great. And then maybe you can tell me a little bit about Arte Museum at Santa Monica Place. The visitors seem very impressive, but what exactly would you be seeing at the museum?

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Well, it changes constantly, Craig. They control the content. It's immersive video. So, you walk in and you feel like you're part of it, you know, a wave crashing over you, for example.

And you can go to their website. They're open in Korea. I think they've got one other U.S. location, maybe in Las Vegas.

But they certainly generate a lot of interest, a lot of traffic, a lot of visits. And we think it's going to be beneficial -- very beneficial for the third level of Santa Monica Place. And we're hoping the concept can travel a little bit through the rest of our portfolio. But it's exciting.

There's nothing really like it around, and it's going to be a tremendous addition.

Craig Schmidt -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Great. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Samir Khanal with Evercore ISI. Please proceed with your question.

Samir Khanal -- Evercore ISI -- Analyst

Hey, Scott or Tom, how are you thinking about variable rent or percentage rent this year with the conversion to fixed rent? And I guess, you know, on that point, is there any sort of potential upside from sort of international tourism coming back, whether it's from China or other areas?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yes, Samir. Good afternoon. Or should I say morning out here now on the West Coast? We expect percentage rents to continue to decline as we renew leases and convert those variable rents to gross rent -- or excuse me, to fixed rents. That's a concerted effort on our part.

We saw some of that in 2022, and I think you'll see that accelerate in '23. You know, we've -- just by frame of reference, we budget our sales to be neutral in 2023. So, you know, we'll see how the rest of the year pans out in that regard. But we'll certainly see variable rent to continue to convert over to fixed rents.

And then, Samir, on the second part --

Samir Khanal -- Evercore ISI -- Analyst

Go ahead. Sorry. 

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

And the second part of your question was?

Samir Khanal -- Evercore ISI -- Analyst

No, with international tourism coming back, you know, I mean, from China or other areas, is there a potential upside to that number, you think? I mean, is it -- are you baking in any sort of upside to the percentage of rents coming from international tourism coming back here potentially?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

No, we're not getting that specific. But if you think about it, you think about the revenge spending that occurred domestically here in 2021 as the Asian consumer gets back out into the world, you know, we'll certainly see some benefit, probably see some benefit in markets like Santa Monica and Chicago and Tysons Corner. So, we're not building that into the guidance. But there's certainly room to think that as those consumers start to venture into the United States that we'll see some of that international tourism that's been missing for the last few years start to return.

Samir Khanal -- Evercore ISI -- Analyst

And any color you can provide on sort of what your assumptions are for occupancy for '23, how much of an occupancy pickup will we see you think?

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Well, we're going to continue to push that. Obviously, the higher the occupancy gets, the tougher it is to get there. But we were about 94% pre-COVID, dropped as low as 88. And we've leased our way back to 92.6%.

And, you know, we'll be -- our expectation is to be somewhere between 93.5% and 94% by the end of next year.

Samir Khanal -- Evercore ISI -- Analyst

Got it. Thank you, guys.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Floris Van Dijkum with Compass Point. Please proceed with your question.

Floris Van Dijkum -- Compass Point Research and Trading -- Analyst

Thanks. Hey, guys.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Hi, Floris.

Floris Van Dijkum -- Compass Point Research and Trading -- Analyst

Hey. Question, where do you think -- you know, what points do you expect you're going to recover '19 levels of NOI in your portfolio? And obviously, your portfolio has changed a little bit over the last couple of years. You made a couple more asset sales, etc. But it'd be good for maybe for the market to get a sense of what the reference point is and how quickly you can get there.

And obviously, clearly, your guidance assumes a slowdown in your NOI growth from the 7%-plus levels that you've achieved over the last two years, so maybe I can get some comment on that as well when you get a chance.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, with the same-center growth, I mean, that's coming against some very tough comps. You know, 7% growth, you know, for two years in a row, that's extraordinary. So, that's a little bit, you know, out of the norm. And this year, we're getting back to a more normal level.

But in terms of when we get back to pre-COVID NOI levels, you know, we've said for some time we believe it's going to be, you know, around the fourth quarter of '23 and going forward from there. And it'll track, to some extent, with the occupancy level as we get closer to that 94%, which we're pushing for this year. So, we think we'll be there in the fourth quarter. And that's not inconsistent with what we've said, you know, the past few quarters.

Things are moving along nicely. And if Doug keeps doing a great job with his team on the leasing front, we'll get there later this year.

Floris Van Dijkum -- Compass Point Research and Trading -- Analyst

Thanks. Maybe if you can -- one comment and maybe on -- or if I can get your comments on your recovery ratios. One of the things that obviously you're -- you know, part of what's going to be a drag on your earnings a little bit and your NOI growth this year is the fact that expenses are going up perhaps in excess of your fixed CAM bumps which will -- you know, which could drag your NOI growth, which benefits from your 3% bumps in your occupancy gains and hopefully some positive lease spreads as well. But if maybe if you can give a little bit more comments on what's happening, or in new leases, are you asking and receiving higher fixed CAM? What other initiatives do you have underway that improve your recovery ratios? And presumably, moving from a turnover-based rents and temp tenancies to permanent tenancies should hopefully improve your recovery ratios and your margins as well going forward.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, Floris, we -- as you know, we've been a fixed CAM shop for many years. In fact, most of our leases are on a fixed CAM basis, with annual escalators that are ranging between 4% to 5%. So, you know, if I were to say '22 and '23, inflation has resulted in an abnormal increase in our shopping center expenses, perhaps that slightly outpaced the annual bumps that we're getting in fixed CAM. But bear in mind, year after year leading up to this hyperinflationary environment that we're currently experiencing, we've been, you know, clipping along with annual increases that well surpassed inflation.

So, I think we've had, you know, plenty of, call it, "bank," you know, to absorb the increases that we're dealing with right now in operating expenses for things like labor and real estate taxes and insurance. And we're certainly going to see -- you know, we are getting those fixed bumps, you know, in our deals with very rare exceptions. And we're certainly going to see our recovery rates continue to improve as we convert temporary space, which, today, is about 7.5% of our occupancy over to permanent. We'll certainly see a continued growth in our recovery rates from that.

Floris Van Dijkum -- Compass Point Research and Trading -- Analyst

Great. Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Alexander Goldfarb with Piper Sandler. Please proceed with your question.

Alexander Goldfarb -- Piper Sandler -- Analyst

Hey, good morning out there. So, two questions. First up, Tom, on the sales, obviously, we know, you know, stuff can be -- you know, you always get a mix in sales. But curious, in the fourth quarter, sales were down relative to third quarter.

Is this, you know, mix? Is it inflation like our tenant -- I understand obviously tenants are strong. They're -- you know, they're leasing. We firmly understand that. But at the sales level, are customers pulling back, or was it a mix of what merchandise they were buying? Just I would have thought in the fourth quarter, you know, people splurge and go out with a bang for the holidays and then maybe pull back once they get the credit card in the first quarter.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, Alex, the comparison was versus the fourth quarter of '21, and sales in the fourth quarter of '22 were flat with the first quarter of '21. But '21 was a very strong quarter, fourth quarter of '21. And so, that's not necessarily bad news or an indication that consumers are pulling back. I think it's just we were going against a tough comp.

You know, a lot of the retailers blame weather issues. I'm not going to go there. But, you know, we weren't uncomfortable with that result. We were up 3% for the year.

And, you know, in terms of traffic and activity, the consumers are still there and proving to be very resilient. So, we weren't necessarily concerned about what happened with sales and traffic in the fourth quarter. It was just going against a very tough fourth quarter of '21.

Alexander Goldfarb -- Piper Sandler -- Analyst

Yeah, I was comparing it to third quarter of -- the trailing 12 to third quarter versus trailing 12 to fourth quarter, but I'm guessing your response would be the same. Second question is on the -- going back to the occupancy build, you guys clearly got a lot of lease term in '21 and '22, recaptured a lot of space. Your overall occupancy is still a few points behind your public peers, although they have a different portfolio composition with outlets and malls versus you guys. But it would seem like you guys would still have a lot of oomph in the tank, if you will, on occupancy rebuild that would get maybe better NOI growth.

So, are there other things there? Is that -- maybe it's just the length of time it takes to physically open the space, get the tenant in that's really the hindrance, so the occupancy build will come in time, but maybe it's just physically getting it there. I'm just sort of curious because it seems like you guys would --

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

You're right about that. I mean, you know, we announced the deals the day we sign them. They go into occupancy. But in some cases, if you look at something like a Pinstripes or a Life Time Fitness, it's going to take, you know, close to a year to get it built out, and it doesn't start hitting NOI until the build-out.

So, a lot of the stuff that we're talking about today, like Arte Museum, you know, we're going to get the benefit of that in '24 and '25 as it relates to NOI growth, but not in '23. So, that big pipeline does bode well for the NOI growth as we look forward into '24 and '25.

Alexander Goldfarb -- Piper Sandler -- Analyst

Thank you.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Linda Tsai with Jefferies. Please proceed with your question.

Linda Tsai -- Jefferies -- Analyst

Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I'm sorry if I missed it, but did you outline bad debt expectations for '23?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, we spoke about that just briefly, Linda. We do not expect those to be significant at all. As a result, we just did not disclose the guidance. It wasn't trying to be opaque or anything, but we just do not expect that to be significant.

It's a very, very small line item when you're looking at a company that generates, you know, nearly 800 million of NOI.

Linda Tsai -- Jefferies -- Analyst

Thanks. And then what's demand like right now from digitally native retailers? That's something that you've talked a lot about in the past. Is that still kind of going on at the same level of velocity as you've seen in prior quarters?

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Hey, Linda, it's Doug. I would say that the digitally native, the ones the retailers that are currently online that are starting to open bricks-and-mortar stores, that slowed compared to the last two, three, or four years. But then you think about the brands that were born online that turned into bricks-and-mortar retailers. Think about Warby Parker and think about Vuori and Allbirds, they were all born online, but now they're just basically traditional retailers.

They have as much business in their bricks and mortar than they do online. So, the new ones are slowing, but the ones that are emerging are really picking up.

Linda Tsai -- Jefferies -- Analyst

Thanks for that. Just one last one, are the luxury retailers turning their store opening plans back to Asia given the reopening or what are you seeing as it relates to domestic demand from the luxury retailers?

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Well, where that's most relevant for us, Linda, is at Scottsdale Fashion Square. We had such great success with the luxury wing and the food and beverage that we added a couple of years ago that we're converting the Nordstrom wing to luxury brands. And the demand has been very, very strong. So, not a big sample size, to speak to your question, but where we are looking to, you know, put in luxury brands, we're having pretty strong demand.

I don't see it pulling back at all. Do you, Doug?

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

No, not at all. It's only going to get better.

Linda Tsai -- Jefferies -- Analyst

Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Todd Thomas with KeyBanc Capital Markets. Please proceed with your question.

Todd Thomas -- KeyBanc Capital Markets -- Analyst

Hi. Thanks. Good morning out there. Just a question about the same-store NOI growth forecast of 2% to 3%.

As occupancy is expected to increase, which you indicated, and it appears rent growth is, you know, holding steady here. Obviously, a lot of other factors, including expenses and recovery income that you discussed. But, you know, can you just provide a little bit more detail around that buildup to the 2% to 3%? And sort of -- I guess my question is, you know, what's kind of holding it back a little bit? You talked about, you know, the $62 million of incremental rent or I suppose $55 million of NOI that, you know, is expected to come online. You know, that's pretty significant growth off to your current base.

So, I'm just curious if you could talk about that a little bit and a little bit more detail around the 2% to 3%?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Sure, Todd. This is Scott. The biggest factor, you know, I think we touched on it earlier, is downtime. You know, as you take large space off the market, most of which is committed, some of which is not, you know, you've got downtime which impacts you.

And as we took a step back as we were doing all of our detailed work looking at our business plan for 2023, we realized that, coincidentally or not, some of our better space and some of our higher rent-generating space and our New York assets were, in fact, spaces that we were taking offline. So, you know, that downtime certainly cuts against growth. You touched on the other component. Obviously --

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

It's a -- it temporarily cuts against growth. It ultimately -- so we talk about the 55 million of income -- incremental pipeline, that doesn't all hit in '23. You know, a significant percentage of that hits in '24 and maybe some of it even in '25. So, as Scott was saying, as we take space offline, it's a temporary hit to NOI to be picked up as we put the new tenants back in.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

And, Todd, just refer to the disclosures we have on our pipeline. Those will actually get a little bit better than the one we had over Investor Day because of the improved leasing demand that we continue to see. But you can take a look and see what the incremental pipeline is by year.

Todd Thomas -- KeyBanc Capital Markets -- Analyst

OK. That's helpful. And how much of the 62 million or that leasing pipeline, how much of that is in the same store?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

The vast majority of it is same store. We don't have a lot of development -- ongoing development projects that are significant where we pull anything out, north of 95%.

Todd Thomas -- KeyBanc Capital Markets -- Analyst

OK. And just last question on the occupancy specifically. You know, you're looking to sort of be in that 93.5% to 94% range by the end of the year. You know, just in terms of seasonality, you know, you talked about, you know, sort of low levels of bankruptcy.

And, you know, last year was obviously very muted in terms of what occupancy was lost after the holidays. You know, do you have visibility on what that sort of seasonal occupancy decline might look like early this year, you know, whether that will be similar to '22 or more of a, you know, historical sort of average if we think about that occupancy trend throughout the year.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, we're really going to see occupancy -- physical occupancy tick up by the time we get to the end of the year. Today, when we looked at physical versus leased occupancy at the end of 2022, it was approaching nearly 3%, which is pretty elevated for us, Todd. As our pipeline continues to get built out and new stores start to open and start to pay rent, we'll see that gap start to narrow. So, I expect physical occupancy will really start to pick up in the latter half of the year, which certainly sets up a good backdrop for cash flow and NOI growth in 2024.

Todd Thomas -- KeyBanc Capital Markets -- Analyst

What about seasonally moving from, you know, 4Q '22 into early '23, right, 4Q to 1Q, sort of 1Q to 2Q, are you expecting any seasonal occupancy loss or do you expect this to be another year where there's just very little, you know, muted sort of levels of occupancy loss early in the year?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

You'll always see a drop after the fourth quarter. You know, January is typically when leases roll. You've obviously got the temporary tenancies, which are seasonal in nature, and those guys may roll off. So, you'll always see a little bit of a tick down from the fourth quarter to the first quarter.

It could perhaps be a little bit less. We'll see how that pans out. But that's just traditional with our business.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, historically, if you go back over the last 15 or 20 years, it's been a range of, you know, 20 basis points to 60 basis points decline between the fourth quarter and the first quarter. And I would expect it to be very similar to this year.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, If I recall, Tom, last year was about 40 to 50.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, correct.

Todd Thomas -- KeyBanc Capital Markets -- Analyst

All right. Thank you.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thanks, Todd.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Mike Mueller with J.P. Morgan. Please proceed with your question.

Mike Mueller -- JPMorgan Chase and Company -- Analyst

Yeah, hi. Scott, what is the actual retailer valuation income assumption in the '23 forecast? I think you said it was about $0.05 higher year over year. But what's the number?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

It's about a penny in aggregate. Very small. Very hard to predict also, you know, where these market valuations are going to be. But it's nominal in 2023 to be conservative.

Mike Mueller -- JPMorgan Chase and Company -- Analyst

Got it. OK. And then on some of the densification opportunities that you talked about, can you just run through some rough timelines?

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

It's -- those are really going to run. Some happen -- the ones I mentioned relating to multifamily, it takes a little while to get the entitlement perfected and move forward. Those going to mostly hit in '24 and '25. As it relates to, you know, the retail projects such as SCHEELS sporting goods and Arte Museum, those will be opened late '23 or into '24.

So, it's a variety. We expect to spend about 150 million, Mike, in '23. You know, I would expect a like amount in '24 to get those entitlements up and going. Biltmore might be a little further out there as we protect the entitlement there.

That's probably more like a '25 opening, '24 or '25.

Mike Mueller -- JPMorgan Chase and Company -- Analyst

Got it. OK. Thank you.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Ki Bin Kim with Truist. Please proceed with your question.

Ki Bin Kim -- Truist Securities -- Analyst

Thanks. Good afternoon. Can you just talk about the trends in operating costs that we should expect in '23? And as these costs go up, you know, as -- and as you post higher lease prices, I'm curious how much of those higher lease prices actually can translate into the bottom line versus maybe being dissipated into higher costs?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, our operating expenses will continue to tick up, Ki Bin. We expect about a 3% to 4% growth in shopping center expenses. You know, it's a range of outcomes from labor costs to property taxes, big line item insurance, big line item sale. You know, we'll see that.

Leasing spreads are kind of independent, right? You're -- you manage your expenses in a fixed CAM world. And, you know, the spreads, your ability to generate pricing power is really driven by growth in occupancy and creating that tension between supply and demand. And we think we're there. We've started to see spreads over the last couple of quarters in the mid-single-digit range.

I think it's reasonable to assume we'll continue at that level. Doug, do you disagree?

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Yeah. No, I agree. And the one thing I would add, Scott, is for the first time probably since pre-pandemic, we're starting to see competition for space again, especially in our better centers. And that's just, by definition, going to drive the rate up.

So, you know, you combine competition with increased occupancy, we're starting to see it in terms of driving rate.

Ki Bin Kim -- Truist Securities -- Analyst

And when you negotiate with tenants, how often is the topic of crime and safety being elevated when you discuss leasing with tenants? And can you talk about some of the things that you've done as a landlord, maybe in conjunction with the city, to make a safer kind of shopping environment?

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, I'll take the second half of that. We work with all of our cities pretty closely. You know, Santa Monica, for example, we spent a lot of time with the various people in the city, as well as the police chief, to try to make sure that we make Santa Monica Place the safest environment possible for shoppers. We have a lot of urban properties.

And as a result, we're very sensitive to those issues. I think, you know, one area that we don't scrimp on as it relates to expenses is security. And we use one of the biggest firms in the country, if not the world, to handle our security. And it's something that we're in close communication with every single municipality we do business in to be aware of issues that are happening.

And that's, you know, really all you can do. Doug, you can speak to the retailer side of it and how they're reacting or what kind of feedback you get.

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Yeah. So, we don't really negotiate security when we're negotiating leases. But what I can tell you, and this is happening a lot, we're having the retailers' security departments reach out to us to partner with our security department and vice versa. So, there's meetings, there's functions, there's conventions, if you will, that marry up our security and the retailer's security.

So, we're starting to see a pretty dynamic partnership there. But it's not really a function of the lease.

Ki Bin Kim -- Truist Securities -- Analyst

OK. Thank you.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Craig Mailman with Citi. Please proceed with your question.

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

Hey. Just a question on what are you guys are baking in from a perspective of delivery times on leases? I mean, are lead times getting better on that? Are you guys maybe taking -- or is there some conservatism of guidance around timing of some of that stuff that you're saying could be hitting in the '23 or in '24? Is there any chance of that hitting earlier on?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, correct. You know, Tom touched on it. Probably the most sensitive are the larger spaces that generate a significant amount of rent. And just as a practical matter, there's take a fair amount of time to, you know, get permitted, get built out, and ultimately start paying rent.

You know, we look at this space by space, and we coordinate with the tenants' construction department to determine what those estimated rent start dates are. And so, I'm not sure that we're necessarily being conservative. We're trying to be as realistic as possible because, again, we've got a fair amount of this space that came back to us during the pandemic. It's an exciting space.

We really want to get it open as soon as possible. But each circumstance is different. Each municipality you're dealing with is different. So, it's very space-by-space specific.

And I think we've got a pretty realistic perspective of when we think that rents are going to start to come online.

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

Are labor issues still a bottleneck for your tenants in terms of opening new stores, getting employees? Is that still an issue or is that easing up on the margin?

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

I think -- it's Doug. I think it is easing up. I mean, we're talking to the retailers all the time, and that was a real issue, you know, last 12 to 24 months. But it's really quieted down.

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

OK. And then just one last one --

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

That and the supply chain issues that were often discussed in the last 24 months.

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

Right. And just on the financing side, you guys had mentioned Scottsdale, the new loan there is progressing. Are you guys looking at the same type of costs that you were at the Investor Day? Is there anything, you know, positive or negative on that front to report?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, Craig. You know, during Investor Day, at that point in time, you know, the market was pretty locked up. As we started '22 -- or excuse me, '23, there's certainly a fresh allocation of capital. So, bond investors are, you know, back in the game.

Investment banks are starting to form pools. Transactions are getting done. Generally, we think it's going to be a slow first half of the year. And while things have improved, it'll take a little while for things to start to get back to normal.

You know, all that said, we've seen a pretty significant rally in credit spreads over the last, say, four to five months versus the fall. You've obviously seen, you know, benchmark rates, you know, 10-year Treasury, five-year Treasury bounce all over the place, including over the last couple of days with a recent employment report. But net-net, I think rates have improved to the extent the refinancing markets are open for certain assets. I think, generally, rates have modestly improved.

But it's very volatile still, and that could change on a dime. The good news is transactions are getting done. We've got one refinanced complete. We've got one refinance expected within the next few weeks.

And, you know, more to follow. As we look at the balance of the year, we do think that the second half of the year should be much better than the first half.

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

What do you think is a good placeholder for timing and rate on that loan?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

On the Scottsdale loan?

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

Yeah.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

We'll close -- that'll close in the first quarter. And if I were to estimate rate, it's probably going to be in the low to mid-5% range.

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Ronald Kamdem with Morgan Stanley. Please proceed with your question.

Ronald Kamdem -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

Hey, a couple of quick ones. Just going back to some of the targets on leverage at the Investor Day at the end of '23, just trying to tie those comments with sort of the sources and uses. You talked about sort of 315 in operating cash flow. You know, you take the dividend out, I guess you don't want 60.

You know, after you sort of put development spending in, you don't really have a lot sort of leftover. Just trying to get a sense of if that -- how we get to that leverage target. Is it just basically contingent on an equity raise or how to think about it?

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. We -- if you look at the chart that we talked about on Investor Day, we did have a placeholder for a nominal equity raise. That doesn't mean we're committed to raising equity at $13 a share, but that was a placeholder in there. If you look at the footnotes.

In addition, NOI growth certainly is an important component to us, ultimately getting our target leverage below 8% -- or excuse me, eight times over the course of the next year or two. So, those are the primary factors. You know, we think that we're certainly headed down the right path of achieving reasonable NOI and EBITDA growth between now and next year.

Ronald Kamdem -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

Got it. And then going back to sort of the refinancing questions, just to thaw in Washington Square, some of the pay down for that loan, only 15 million. But just curious of your commentary both generally in terms of what the servicers are asking for and those specifically on Danbury Fair or Fashion Outlets of Niagara, if there's any updates there? Thanks.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, sure. Every case is specific. You know, if you look at Santa Monica Place, it's an asset where there's still a fair amount of leasing to be accomplished. We talked about the Arte Museum with a couple other names hopefully to be announced in the near future.

If you were to look, Craig, at taking that asset to market, the outcome would have been dramatically different. So, an extension was very efficient for us. It resulted in no repayment of the loan proceeds. Again, that's one isolated example.

But generally, you know, the extensions have been very efficient from both a liquidity standpoint, as well as a rate standpoint. Frankly, you know, if you step back and look at what's happened historically if you look at the Fed funds chart when the Fed has increased rates, there's typically been a fairly significant fall off of those rates shortly thereafter. So, if you think about extensions for three to four years, not only is it efficient in the moment, it's very efficient from a rate standpoint as you're not locking yourself into higher rates for a longer period. So --

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Well, it's combining not just what we expect in terms of rate, but also taking a look at the inverted yield curve and trying to find the right duration. And if you combine those, you end up with a three- to five-year term that seems to work best for us. And that's the strategy we pursued.

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

And then if you look forward, you know, we do have some financings that we do think will be able to get accomplished. A couple of the highlights for the balance of the year will be financing Tysons Corner toward the end of the year, obviously, a marquee asset for us, and we think that should very well likely be an incremental liquidity event for the company. And, you know, we attempted to finance Danbury Fair last year. The markets closed up on a couple of different occasions.

I think it's very realistic to assume over the next several months that we could get that asset financed. It's got an awful lot going for it, trending in the right direction from an occupancy and absorption standpoint. So, I think that's a financing we'll be able to get accomplished here within probably the next couple of quarters.

Ronald Kamdem -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

Great. Thank you.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thank you.

Operator

And we have reached the end of the question-and-answer session. I'll now turn the call back over to Tom O'Hern for closing remarks.

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Thank you for joining us today. Again, we're pleased to report a strong conclusion at 2022, and we look forward to reporting to you over the coming the year as 2023 unfolds.

Operator

[Operator signoff]

Duration: 0 minutes

Call participants:

Samantha Greening -- Director, Investor Relations

Tom O'Hern -- Chief Executive Officer

Scott Kingsmore -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Doug Healey -- Senior Executive Vice President, Leasing

Derek Johnston -- Deutsche Bank -- Analyst

Greg McGinniss -- Scotiabank -- Analyst

Craig Schmidt -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Samir Khanal -- Evercore ISI -- Analyst

Floris Van Dijkum -- Compass Point Research and Trading -- Analyst

Alexander Goldfarb -- Piper Sandler -- Analyst

Linda Tsai -- Jefferies -- Analyst

Todd Thomas -- KeyBanc Capital Markets -- Analyst

Mike Mueller -- JPMorgan Chase and Company -- Analyst

Ki Bin Kim -- Truist Securities -- Analyst

Craig Mailman -- Citi -- Analyst

Ronald Kamdem -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

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