The Confederacy of Wusses Cries Again

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As usual, my Foolish colleague Alyce Lomax got it right back in August, when she called the "80 Million Strong" movement a confederacy of wusses. Basically, 80 Million Strong is a group of recent college grads who, feeling "overburdened" by unemployment, credit cards, and looming student loan repayments, are looking for their own bailout from Washington. 

According to the group's website, the mission of 80 Million Strong is to unite "young Americans to own and direct their economic reality. … To do this, we convene stakeholders who propose legislation that creates new jobs for the new economy."

Let me get this straight: You want to bring twentysomethings together to own their economic reality … by asking the government for help. So much for the spirit of entrepreneurship and individual empowerment that made this country great.

Am I taking crazy pills?
Matthew Segal, the co-leader of 80 Million Strong, was on Capitol Hill (no, I'm not kidding) last week with some prepared remarks for the House Education and Labor Committee. According to The Wall Street Journal, Segal said that the recession has helped in "digging a hole that will place a long-term burden on our generation as we attempt to build a stronger future workforce. … Among the many national and global challenges today's 20-somethings face, we are the first generation likely to be less better off than our parents."

As a member of this generation myself, I can't help but feel ashamed that this is what we've come to. You know what? Tough noogies, kid. Our parents may have wanted us to be better off than they were, but it was never a foregone conclusion. And in the end, we may actually be better off for wanting less than our parents did and being happier with what we have.

Rooted in cultural change
To me, this is just one more piece of evidence that our culture of entitlement has truly run amok. It seems that today's college grads expect to live a life like what they see on The Hills, Entourage, or Sex in the City, complete with Manhattan penthouse apartments and dream jobs that pay six-figure salaries without any real effort. That's fantasy. That's television.

There are jobs to be had for twentysomethings. Maybe not the jobs they had in mind, per se, but jobs nonetheless. This past spring, for instance, tighter restrictions on H2B visas meant that Maryland crab houses couldn't find enough immigrant workers to pick out crab meat. It's dirty work, for sure, but $7 an hour plus all the delicious crab you can eat is certainly something to consider if you've got nothing better to do. 

And if picking crab meat isn't your thing, check out your neighborhood Starbucks (Nasdaq: SBUX  ) , McDonald's (NYSE: MCD  ) , and Home Depot (NYSE: HD  ) -- they're often hiring for part-time positions.

At the very least, by doing tough work out of college, you'll have a great story to tell your kids about your first job. Who knows? They may even learn to take your demonstrated work ethic as an example of humility and industry for themselves.

So to my fellow 80 million "strong" out there, I have this advice: Stop whining to Washington like some Wall Street banker from Bank of America (NYSE: BAC  ) or Goldman Sachs (NYSE: GS  ) . You're better than that. Get to work. Any work.

What do you think? Have I sold out my generation, or am I on to something? Sound off in the comment box below.

Fool analyst Todd Wenning cleaned pools, bused tables, and did construction work during college to pay the bills -- and in the process learned the real value of a buck. He owns shares of Home Depot, but of no other company mentioned. Starbucks is a Motley Fool Stock Advisor recommendation. Home Depot is a Motley Fool Inside Value recommendation. The Fool owns shares of Starbucks and has a disclosure policy.

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  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:29 PM, 11x wrote:

    Working at McDonalds for $7 an hour burdened with student loans does not cut it. You're better off not going to college. You're suggesting college grads go work at SBUX? That's terrible advice. At least find something in your industry so you can at least apply your college degree.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:33 PM, miteycasey wrote:

    Having been in my early 20's during the IT bubble and burst I know what it's like to try to find a job.

    I had to move 800 miles and leave everything behind.

    Being in my 20's I didn't have anything tying me down so it was a tough decision, but the one I had to make.

    By my early 30's everything had turned around and I was able to move home while getting a 120% raise.

    It will get better. You just have to survive the bad times to appreciate the good times.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:34 PM, XMFCommodore wrote:

    Well said Mr. Wenning. Plus you forgot to mention the exciting international opportunities available to recent college grads and other young people in areas like the Peace Corp. The opportunity to travel to foreign countries, learn about unique cultures, and contribute some good to humanity, all while drawing a stipend? Not a bad gig if you've got nothing else lined up... Yes your generation may not be as well off as your parents', but you can still live a fulfilling life and make plenty to be content. $$$ does not = happiness. Consider that your free class in real world logic young friends.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:40 PM, TrailerParkJawa wrote:

    I remember going to San Jose State in 1992, I was 20 or 21, and our generation was supposed to be worse of than our parents. Now at 38, it is harder to acheive what my parents did. Two successive bubbles have seen to that.

    But in the end its not the gov'ts job to level the playing field. While I don't think working at a low paying job after college is ideal it might be reality.

    After I graduated I continued my job at Circuit City for 6 months until I found work that paid enough to drop my flexible, low paying, job. But then again I went to an affordable state school.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:51 PM, kkconway wrote:

    I agree with you, Todd. $7 an hour is pretty bad pay, on the other hand, but honest work, rather than sucking your thumb waiting for help, is the way to go. News flash to whiners, recessions don't last forever, and better jobs will appear on the horizon soon, as long as Congress goes easy on the tax an regulation front. Watch out for those Green jobs. Many are genuine, but many more are temporary chimeras, promising a career, but delivering a mirage. I have three kids in their twenties and three more coming. This stuff matters to me for their sakes. What matters is their own initiative, fortitude and commitment, not half-baked promises from Washington, DC.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:56 PM, engrgrad1952 wrote:

    in 1952 engr. grads. were going for $300/mo.

    that is if you were in the top 10% of your class.

    engr. grads could also go to work in an auto factory for $600/mo.

    not the same choice as today grads. but even then you could suck it up and go to work or go back and live with your parents

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 12:57 PM, XMFTheNew wrote:


    I graduated college right in 2002 during the recession after 9/11. Same situation as now. Very little job opportunities. I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to go to grad school to ride out the recession and wait till things got better. And I found exactly what you did. Degrees don't hand you opportunities. You have to make your own opportunities. I took whatever I could find and built my experience through unpaid internships and hourly jobs. Took a couple years to earn an actual salary and get healthcare.

    The only thing I would add is that college tuition is out of control... it should be more affordable (if you're smart and get in, you should be able to go). We don't want to lose those people who pursue good careers that give back to the community like social work or science that might not pay yield big bonuses or salaries in the end... but come with a lofty price tag in tuition and student loans.

    But I'd be willing to bet the kids with $40,000 in student loans are much more motivated than those kids without them. And would make it work.

    Let's hope the 80 million strong isn't another "Me" generation.

    - TMFTheNew

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 1:25 PM, TMFBent wrote:

    "Working at McDonalds for $7 an hour burdened with student loans does not cut it. You're better off not going to college. You're suggesting college grads go work at SBUX? That's terrible advice. At least find something in your industry so you can at least apply your college degree"

    That's the kind of attitude that gets young graduates on the fast road to destitution. $7 an hour is a lot better than zero. I worked plenty of minimum wage jobs when I had to, as have millions of others who prefer to do something rather than just complain about the unfairness of life.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 1:34 PM, TMFBostnbirdy wrote:

    I graduated in 2002 with $30K in college loans and over $10K in credit card debt. For the first 6 months after graduation, I lived in my parents' house and turned down numerous lifeguarding jobs while searching for a job that would actually use my education.

    I finally realized that wouldn't happen, and I accepted a job answering phones for a concierge service. Mind you, I HATE talking on the phone. I don't even talk to my sister on the phone unless she calls me, and sometimes I don't even answer.

    So I sucked it up through a year of that before finally getting a hit on an email marketing job. I took a pay CUT for that job, but it gave me the experience needed to join the Fool advertising operations team a year and a half after that.

    By the time I was 6 years out of college, I had paid off all of my student loans, credit card debt, AND a $16,000 car I bought in 2004. I didn't have anything handed to me. I don't make 6 figures. I just worked my butt off and saved every available penny to make this happen. Now I'm a better person for it.

    For any of those "80 Million Strong" whiners, I know of a Boston Area concierge service that is hiring...

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 1:50 PM, JohnnyAngel33 wrote:

    I'm a 24 year old engineer and I have a question to probably 75% of the people in "80 Million Strong". Exactly what did you expect when you chose to major in things like communications, art, philosophy, etc. Many of you chose to get degrees in things that allowed you to do as little work as possible in college so don't complain when your degree doesn't pay off. It's not like you didn't know before hand these degrees were practically worthless in the job market.

    Actually now that I look at their website, only 30% of the members have bachelor degrees or higher. YOU CAN"T FIND A JOB BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SKILLS! Complain after you've actually put in the necessary work.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Origin97 wrote:

    The Army is hiring....

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:14 PM, BMFPitt wrote:

    As a 29 year old who is stretching the limits of calling myself a "recent" college grad, and who wants nothign to do with this "movement", I have to say for the record:


  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:16 PM, yeunganson wrote:

    I am speaking in a Canadian perspective.

    If you, the US, as a nation, decides that it is normal and acceptable for your best educated population to work in fast food resturants, or Starbucks (which can be serviced without the higher education), then your there is definately a problem with your system.

    Having university grads working in low paying service jobs is a very ineffficient way of using human capital. Regardless of who is at fault, the university grad who fails to do their own start-up company, or the government (who fails to create the proper enviroment to use these students), the one that ultamately suffer would be the US - both the nation and its people.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:27 PM, kedo76 wrote:

    I became an officer in the Marines right out of college. That's open, I guarantee it. But you'll have to serve your country, so keep that in mind (I know the word "serve" is a dirty, bad word). When I got out of the Marines, I worked nights in a warehouse in Ohio (I could have just stayed in the Marines as another option). I KNOW that job in Ohio is open, they couldn't find anyone and I had NOOOO trouble getting it. That was only a few years ago. Now, I have moved on to a pretty nice job during the day in California. Keep in mind that Marines thing; I didn't ask the govt for help, I just joined it, served, etc. I also got a job offer from the DEA, but turned that down; just want you to know about the choices I made for myself. Anyone coming out of college that can't find a job is a lazy liberal moron.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Origin97 wrote:

    Kedo76... RIGHT ON!

    Regardless of what Michael Moore says, Hard work WILL deliver. it has for over 200 years in the USA. and things are still far better that they ever could have been back before the 1950's. Does Hormel ring any bells?

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Origin97 wrote:

    Also... I am an electrical Engineer and I didn't go to college, I started as a draftsman... I'm 31. You could always work your way up from the bottom. My wife is a chef and has seen many people start off as dishwashers, they showed ambition and are now chefs themselves.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:44 PM, jzatopa wrote:

    BMFPitt I am in the same boat as you. I am 28 and just finished getting my Business degree. I had a late start and had to work my way through all of it but the last two years which I took out loans for. I also have worked over 13 years in different fields, including starting a small consulting business, expo design center (home depot), and construction. I have been looking for a real job since May. My whole life I have been employed practically the day I applied. Now I put out resumes, go to job fairs and I don't even get a response. It is a little disheartening, you feel like you have worked hard for years to graduate into unemployment. I can't even get a job in previous fields I have worked in. I have not given up though and I have a phone interview tomorrow that I have been working weeks on getting.

    I don't want a hand out and I don't think anyone deserves a handout, but I can empathize with these former students. There is no way to pay for a place to live, transportation and food along with having 30-40k in student loans. Especially if you don't have any financial support. Even finding those part time $7 an hour jobs is not so easy right now and they just wont pay enough to make ends meet.

    This group speaking about there problems though does highlight something that needs a solution in this country. Personally, if there is going to be anything done about this, I think it is going to involve some sort of modification to how student loans are paid. A hold off period for all underemployed students, perhaps? I don't know what the solution is but a hand out is not, nor will it ever be a solution to anything. A hand up, by improving our system and thus allowing people to make it on their own, may be what we need.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:49 PM, outoffocus wrote:

    ~This group speaking about there problems though does highlight something that needs a solution in this country. Personally, if there is going to be anything done about this, I think it is going to involve some sort of modification to how student loans are paid. A hold off period for all underemployed students, perhaps?~

    Forbearance and deferment are already options included in most student loan contracts. Plus most grads have a 6 month grace period before they have to start paying their loans.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:51 PM, NewVestor25 wrote:

    I see some people posting here are blind to the long term view (another problem with us 20 somethings I suppose). Working at McDonalds or Star Bucks out of college because things might be tough in your industry right now is short term job proposal, not a long term career proposal. Just like investing in the market, in 2008 people told me that it was stupid because people, in the short term, were losing a whole lot of money. Never mind the fact that the stock market has returned an average of 7 or 8% over the course of 20 years or so (recessions included). It was bad because the short term said so, and they never heard of dollar cost averaging or value investing.

    Open your eyes! Things will get better! The government can't wave a magic wand and make it better. If you depend on the government for that, your going to be disappointed.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 2:56 PM, booyahh wrote:

    "There is no way to pay for a place to live, transportation and food along with having 30-40k in student loans."


    Just default on your debt. Millions of people are doing it. The banks are doing it.

    That's capitalism.

    After 7 years your credit rating will be washed clean, and you'll be fine. By then you should have a down payment saved up, so you'll easily get a mortgage.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 3:00 PM, aftaburn wrote:

    If you know anything about current psychology advancements, mind viruses, NLP, the power of influence by Cialdini then you know how corporations have hijacked human nature into unnatural spending habits, especially for the new generations. And television was the medium. Boomers did not grow up with the sickened psychological raping that corporations dished out that subtley turned Americans into overdriven spending machines. On top of that, boomers were drugged, and became wussy mothers and fathers who didn't teach their children how money works lol.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Deepfryer wrote:



    I agree 100%.

    People always criticize the younger generation for being too sensitive. For instance, when they played sports they all got a "participation" trophy, whether they won or lost. Well guess what? The kids never asked for those trophies... but the stupid boomers handed them out anyway.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 3:27 PM, ozzfan1317 wrote:

    You have to create your own opportunities. I grew up dirt poor but went to the navy and now will be finishing my associates degree soon then transfering to a four year school. I have worked as many as two jobs as once sometimes you have to make something from nothing unfortunately too many today do not realize that.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 3:31 PM, ozzfan1317 wrote:

    For those having a hard time finding work I sympathize with your situation. Worst case you could always join a support branch of the

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:01 PM, DukeTG wrote:

    I'm with BMF and Deepfryer. I'm 29 and have been well employed as an Engineer since I was 24, so I may not be in the same boat as the 80 Millioners, but it drives me crazy when I hear the "adults" complaining about the "kids these days"

    Give me a break. If you watched Goldman, Wells Fargo, BofA, Citi, GM, Chrysler, and every other company with some troubles get a bailout right before you graduated from college, I'd think you'd be clamoring for a bailout too. And what's more, I couldn't fault you for clamoring. Frankly, if you expect the next generation to act better than you act yourself, you should try leading by example.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:03 PM, ozzfan1317 wrote:

    Alex Paz I understand your frustration and when I graduate I admit to hoping not to have to still be doing remedial labor however you do what you have to and with enough drive you can accomplish anything.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:04 PM, ozzfan1317 wrote:

    Alex Paz I understand your frustration and when I graduate I admit to hoping not to have to still be doing remedial labor however you do what you have to and with enough drive you can accomplish anything.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:06 PM, kedo76 wrote:

    There are two types of comments on this board; one is from an older person talking about how hard work does pay off, and the other really is from a whining, crying 20 something talking about how hard they really do have it and how hard their plight really is. Just reading these comments proves it all true.

    Dear 20 somethings,

    College degree's are the equivalent of a door knob, it opens the door and that's it, and that's even being generous since they usually don't do that. You'll know that when you are a 30 something and look back about where hard work got you, and where your degree got you, but you can't know that until you are 30, and your ignorance is showing through quite well on this board.

    Maybe if you are a 20 something and don't have a job you should be out looking for a job or working hard at the job you do have rather than posting on blog boards about how rough you have it.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:18 PM, youngicon wrote:

    I'm in college now and I can feel the heat of the recession because I can't find interships!!!!! INTERNSHIPS!!!! I can't work for free, but its just motivation to keep going strong. Im not a player-hater, but come on "twentysomethings" this is apart of paying dues!!! Maybe if we stop Twitter and Facebook from taking 12-15 hours of our day away we can get back to starting small businesses

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:26 PM, warlock1806 wrote:

    While I can't disagree, I worked at a local Best Buy to help pay for my college degree and after graduation until I found the position I'm in now.

    While I don't think another bailout is the answer, further tightening of the H2B visas to slow companies from outsourcing everything and giving companies incentive to hire recent grads and American workers in general would be a good place to start. ( college tuition for me is a whole separate rant )

    Instead of going to the government these 80 million should be asking why they didn't go after any internships and other opportunities to make contacts for when they did graduate.

    My own story...

    I rushed things and at 27 I'm already stuck in a dead end section of the IT world in a company where you are never really sure you won't be training a tech from India to take your place any moment. But I'm still always looking, updating the resume, and going out for some volunteer work that should have an impact on my skills.

    And like another poster said.. the peace corps or armed services are always an option. Should I get laid off in the near future, I may even check out the peace corps

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:34 PM, TMFMileHigh wrote:

    I'm seeing two themes here:

    1. A majority that speaks to the benefits of hard work.

    2. A minority that sees hypocrisy in those older admonishing the twentysomethings.

    There's something to be said about point number two. Crooked old guys helped create the mess we're in.

    But the answer isn't a generational bailout. The system we have tends to honor a combination of risk-taking, effort, and smarts. Corruption lingers, sure, but for every crook there are honest entrepreneurs who've done well for themselves and for their employees and shareholders. The system works. Ask Warren Buffett.

    What's that? You say it doesn't work as well as it used to? Fine. Argue the merits of new and better legislation. Organize. Learn. Start movements *and* companies. Surely you have something to contribute to the conversation as well as the infrastructure.

    And now is the time, twentysomethings -- you're never going to have more energy than you do today.

    My point is this: A bailout dishonors this newest generation of workers. It says, in effect, "You're right. You don't have anything to contribute, and you need life support."

    Maybe it's my naivete, or my faith in my own kids, but I just don't believe that's true.

    FWIW and Foolish best,

    Tim (TMFMileHigh and @milehighfool on Twitter)

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Deepfryer wrote:

    To kedo and the others making similar comments:

    Just because there is an obscure group out there called "80 Million Strong", that doesn't mean that they speak for the entire generation.

    I'm in my 20's, but I am not whining about anything, nor am I advocating a "generational bailout". So please, think twice before handing out your condescending, unsolicated advice.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 4:46 PM, 11x wrote:

    I stand by my words, if you are a college grad, you need EXPERIENCE if you plan on getting a job in your field. If you have a supply chains degree but can't find a job in that field, get a job as a buyer. If you are trying to become an architect, get a job doing submittals.

    Yes, you can work your way up without a degree at SBUX, big deal, that's not the point, you don't take on $25 thousand plus in debt and 4 years of your life to work at SBUX and try to become a store manager.

    I graduated in 2004 and my biggest barrier to getting a job was lack of experience. Working at MCD does not give you experience. That's why I'm saying it's terrible advice.

    It has nothing to do with laziness or sloth. It has everything to do with the fact the world is hard and competitive and there a no handouts and no free rides in this country. In fact I am getting ready to go back for my masters because I want to progress my career. So this is not coming from an "idiot" or lazy person. I've already been there done that. And yes I had min wage jobs during high school and college, worked at Osco and Jack in the Box. What was the problem? Firms wanted a degree and experience. MCD or SBUX does not give you experience. What did I do? Work in a warehouse and at least got some experience in the industry I wanted to work in, and I got more than min wage in the process.

    If you want to be an EE, do you work at McD or get anything you can get at a firm that could hire you as an EE? Hmmmmmm....

    There are jobs out there if you want them, you're just going to have to get a little more creative and work a little harder than going to the local McDonalds and filling out an app. To me, that's the ultimate in giving up.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:06 PM, CMFStan8331 wrote:

    AmeriCorps is another good option for anyone who can't find a job right out of college. I was a VISTA and not only did it provide a direct avenue for me to get a job as a state social worker when my VISTA term ended, but the computer admin experience I carved out for myself while a VISTA also ended up leading to my current job in the IT industry.

    Almost any job can provide useful experiences, no matter what industry in which one wishes to develop a career. It just requires a positive attitude and a willingness to learn, adapt and look for non-obvious applications.

    For those who want to cast this as a liberal problem, you couldn't be more wrong. It's a societal problem - I see a whole generation of kids who have been spoiled by parents of every political stripe (conservatives do often talk a better game on this issue, but in the real world their kids end up being just as spoiled). There are so many parents out there who were determined to avoid making the same mistakes their parents made - not being able to express love, having harsh standards that took no account of individual interests and personalities, etc.

    Unfortunately, the desire to avoid making one mistake can often lead us into a different one, and that's what has happened here. Giving kids standards that are too low and boosting their self-esteem to an absurdly high, wholly unjustified level is just as damaging to them as the opposite treatment. Many of today's kids have no idea how to handle adversity and frustration when they get out in the real world because it's something they have never before encountered.

    Our kids do need to toughen up, stop whining and start figuring out how to make lemonade, but to see how we got into this situation, we need only look in the mirror.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:09 PM, kedo76 wrote:

    You know 11x, I hire about 3 snots like you every year and I am 32 years old (my employers thought my military experience was pretty neat as it turns out and yes, I have a BBA in Economics). You all sit there telling me the same thing you just wrote; all about your degree's, and how you went back for your masters, and how great you are, and how that job is under you, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. Then I say, well, let's see if you can come to work on time for 90 days and you usually can't and that's also because of all the reasons you just cited. Good luck, and yes, you do take out your loans to work at Starbucks; at 55 it wouldn't be to bad to be the COO of the company, but you might have to actually work to get there, I bet the current COO did that (and if not, he/she transferred from a company where he/she did do that).

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:10 PM, DukeTG wrote:

    I'm going to keep playing devils advocate: I think you're being unfair, Tim, and here's why: to the best of my knowledge, the 80M aren't asking for free money, they're asking for legislation to create jobs (If I'm wrong on that part then that's another story). That's not admitting they have nothing to contribute or asking for life support, that's asking to be given the chance to work. I'm not sure why that's so controversial, or why it makes college grads lazy. Plenty of people beyond 20-somethings have called for more stimulus (I'm not advocating that, btw), so why pick on the grads? To the extent that they're asking for something they don't deserve, I'd say they're products of the world they grew up in.

    Now, that being said I don't really agree with the movement at all. I just have to stand up for my cohort when I think they're being treated unfairly.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:19 PM, PALH wrote:

    If the government doesn't help create jobs, who is going to? Starbucks has been CLOSING stores, not opening them. The recession is flushing experienced people out of their jobs by the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS. How many minimum wage jobs, Mr. Wenning, have you worked that would make you so comfortable passing judgment on others of your generation?

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:20 PM, kedo76 wrote:


    Mr. Dell and Mr. Gates have created a few jobs.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:23 PM, 11x wrote:

    What I said has nothing to do with arrogance, it has everything to do with reality; employers look for experience. If your experience is McDonalds or SBUX and you're trying to get a job as an accountant, your resume does not look as good as someone who assisted a CPA or worked in the office at the local H&R block, for example.

    <<< (my employers thought my military experience was pretty neat as it turns out and yes, I have a BBA in >>>

    You mean you didn't get that job because of your McDonald's experience?

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:25 PM, KAYESHINKER wrote:

    How about this one Post around Senior Centers Grandchild for rent will teach you how to operate all of your electronic gadgets.

    There are 70,001,000 entrepreneurial jobs. Put on your thinking caps


  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:25 PM, kedo76 wrote:

    11x, no, I got it with my military experience. I was in the Marines for several years and I was in Iraq for a year and proved I can lead. No experience necessary.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:28 PM, TMFBane wrote:

    Hey Todd -- Great article. I don't necessarily disagree,but have another perspective to add to the debate. As you know, I taught at the college level for most of my career. And I found that almost all of my students were very hard working and responsible people. They were both hopeful and anxious about their futures, and needed a lot of guidance on how to tackle the mystifying world of work. Personally, I don't find it helpful to label entire generations, as tempting as that may be. The variability within will always far outweigh the apparent similarities among members.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:31 PM, stonebusted wrote:

    Life can be hell. Live it.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:33 PM, stonebusted wrote:

    Life can be very tough. Live it. I'm a baby boomer, screwed up big and am paying.

    The road is yours. Crying will just make you sadder.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:33 PM, kedo76 wrote:

    Oh, and 11x, I have plenty of McDonald's type positions on my resume, I am as proud of those as my night warehouse position for a little Fortune 12 company called McKesson Pharmaceutical, a position that no one would take and at the career fair they were basically begging for someone to come work for them, a position I gladly took. I didn't have a lot of pharmaceutical experience but what a great company, but, oh, you have to work nights and push a broom when you can't find anyone to hire because it's...yeah, at night.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:34 PM, TMFMileHigh wrote:

    Hello DukeTG,

    >>I'm going to keep playing devils advocate: I think you're being unfair, Tim, and here's why: to the best of my knowledge, the 80M aren't asking for free money, they're asking for legislation to create jobs (If I'm wrong on that part then that's another story).

    Fair enough. Government assistance doesn't necessarily equal free money. But it does mean risk-sharing of some sort, and that, to me, sounds like TARP for twentysomethings.

    Perhaps what we need is clarity from the movement's leaders? Is the goal to have the feds create jobs where there previously were none (e.g., a new agency, the CCC of the New Deal era?). Or is the goal effective legislation that rewards those who use their education to take entrepreneurial risks? There's a good chance I'd at least consider the latter.

    FWIW and Foolish best,

    Tim (TMFMileHigh and @milehighfool on Twitter)

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:35 PM, billcoffey100 wrote:

    My reaction to the "80 Million" is to ask, "Did it ever occur to you that the reason prior generations were better off than their parents was because they got up off their keisters and worked hard enough so it would be that way." The folks who experienced the depression of the '30's, WW II, the cold war, etc. didn't have anybody coddling them along.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:37 PM, BMFPitt wrote:

    jzatopa -

    You may have completely misunderstood my statement. I do not in any way agree with anything this "80 Million Strong" movement believes in. Not only do I disagree with their solutions, I don't agree that much of what they are complaining about is even a problem.

    I simply wanted to point out for those who want to try to claim that these people speak for my generation that first off, that is untrue, and secondly that everything that they want is just a drop in the bucket from the epic generational theft perpetrated by the Boomers.

    booyahh -

    I'm pretty sure that you can't get student loans discharged in bankruptcy. Unless a credit card company was dumb enough to have financed 40k worth of college, then that would work.

    kedo76, TMFMileHigh -

    Turn off your confirmation bias for a second and pay attention. Most of the "hard work pays off" posts are FROM 20-somethings. Just because we're also taking the time to call out the fact that the generation that loves to label us lazy pioneered everything that we are being accued of here doesn't mean we want to be like them.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:42 PM, booyahh wrote:

    hey 11x, don't get a Master's, it won't help.

    Experience is a catch-22 thing.

    The solution is simple:

    1) First you make up the experience

    2) Then you look for a job

    3) Since you now have experience, you are offered a job

    Now, it may turn out that you get fired for making it up.

    But hey, by then you actually have some experience, so you got back to Step 2.

    That's how it's been done for generations :)

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:43 PM, putzthedog wrote:

    As one of the boomers out of work, and the younger crowd has my job now, all I can say is suck it up and find some work as any work is good for experience, it shows a willingness to work, which employers do like. There is so much opportunity out there and it will only improve. You may not find the perfect job now but there are "growing jobs" that get you near the place you are traveling to. Don't take the gov't assistance, as it will just put your head in the wrong place.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:45 PM, TMFMileHigh wrote:


    Thanks for the comment.

    My point wasn't and isn't that twentysomethings somehow don't believe hard work pays off. Just the opposite. I think the 80-million-strong movement doesn't do justice to the generation it purports to represent. Once more:

    "My point is this: A bailout dishonors this newest generation of workers. It says, in effect, 'You're right. You don't have anything to contribute, and you need life support.'

    Maybe it's my naivete, or my faith in my own kids, but I just don't believe that's true."

    Thanks again and Foolish best,

    Tim (TMFMileHigh and @milehighfool on Twitter)

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:45 PM, DrAnalog wrote:

    Well, no wonder we are in the mess we're in. The whining from everyone is too much. I am a little oldfer than the baby boomers, who in my opinion are also whimps. Suck it up people, it will eventually get better.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:46 PM, dcorley wrote:

    Do any of you look at resumes of immigrant Chinese "knowledge" workers? They have two PhDs, have twenty or more papers supporting the patents they hold.

    Are adjunct professors, and are involved in high tech start ups.

    Think they work hard?

    Boys and girls, that is your competition.

    The good news is that the knowledge is free at MIT. All of their courses are online.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the new education model is online courses for free with an open book final. Of course the questions would be immensely more difficult that a final depending on memorization.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:50 PM, Fligglet wrote:

    I agree with Todd 100%. I think you many of you miss the point - get a job - any job (McDonald's was just an example) and apply for internships within the industry you want to ultimately be in...grow your resume, but wait tables people. Whining about the fact that you're well educated and unemployed and asking for a bailout from Washington is an insult to your generation.

    Stop whining. Stop asking for handouts. This is America! Figure it out like the rest of us did when we first graduated from college.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:52 PM, grantrobertb wrote:

    The sad sad truth: When we come into this world it owes us "nothing". And it will cry no tear for us whether we make 7 per hour, or whether we are a multi-millionaire. It owe us nothing. It is what you make of it.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Kamradt wrote:

    One of the most important rules to remember when trying to find a better job, particularly one in your field, is that it is ALWAYS easier to get a new job when you have a job. Being employed makes you more employable. Take any job you can get, and build from there. Climb up from within that company or change jobs to climb the ladder. There's a reason they call it climbing the ladder. You almost always start from the first step at the bottom. The Boomers are going to start retiring in droves and create opportunities for people who are intelligent, focused, and hard working, regardless of your particular degree or lack of degree.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 5:58 PM, kedo76 wrote:

    I'll throw this out there, if any of you doctoral 20 somethings are looking for a job, I am sure that night shift supervisor position is open with McKesson in Ohio, no one will take it. I know you all expect to start in the corner penthouse suite in San Francisco at 1 McKesson Plaza with a cool title, but it's more likely that if you shut up and push a broom in Ohio at night, you'll get further than whining in the lobby in San Fran about how great you are during the day.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:00 PM, aftaburn wrote:

    How you do your job is always more important than what you do, regardless of position. This rule goes beyond your career btw. Follow this rule and you will be amply rewarded.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:02 PM, ritmomio wrote:

    How about some worthwhile investment news from Motley instead of finding some wusses to beat on...oh yea there is hardly any of that and if there is, it is usually a poorly disguised sales gimmick to buy some other report or the like. I'm not in the "wusses" group because I'm in my mid-thirties but they are hardly the ones who got us into this predicament. Many of the people responsible are those you possibly mingle with, heads of banks, institutional investors, talking heads on tv, etc. Basically, you're annoying and should get off your high horse. It is very easy to give condescending advice when you're not dealing with the same issues. In other news, idiots, er fools, at Motley Fool advise homeless to find homes and the hungry to eat. Very helpful...

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:02 PM, NotJesseL wrote:

    I agree with the guy from Canada. There has got to be something better than SBUX. For instance, we have cancer to cure, Alzheimer's, a looming energy crisis, etc. Where is another JFK when you need him, anyway? Aiming at the moon was not such a bad use of talent. There is work to do, not just make-work, that could be set out for young grads and out of work people who are willing to work had and learn a lot.

    The "free market" isn't really that free, (I hope nobody wants to argue that after the bailouts) so some government job creation along the lines of NASA, is ok with me.

    Here is another piece of free advice to people looking for work. "If you help enough other people get what they want, you can get anything you want".

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:03 PM, jzatopa wrote:

    outoffocus - "Forbearance and deferment are already options included in most student loan contracts. Plus most grads have a 6 month grace period before they have to start paying their loans."

    Your right, but as I have graduated in May and am still trying to get a job, I think that a little bit more may be needed to help students deal with these large loans during these tough times. I'm not talking about any money being giving, just possibly extending the grace period and/or increasing the times you can claim a forbearance or deferment. This may be a tangent to the conversation at hand though. Just thought I would add some creative solution ideas to get people thinking in the middle of all this finger pointing.

    BMFPitt -

    I didn't misunderstand your statement. I was just identifying with you in getting my degree later on in life and wanted to share my point of view, which differs from you. That alone should point out that no one speaks for a whole generation. Personally I feel there are issues that need to be dealt with here but I agree that a bailout is just silly. It's a complex issue with many facets, which we could all argue about for years. I just want to pose the question, for those who do feel this is an issue, how SHOULD we deal with this?

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:07 PM, JAKO40 wrote:

    Feed me, feed me, hand me everything on a plate, don't make me work for anything and don't dare suggest that I may face hard times. It is my birthright to be a lazy SOB and why can't the previous generation hurry up and die so that I can inherit their wealth...I wannna live like they do on the TV...not much to expect

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:09 PM, EcoFire wrote:

    The people over forty had better be careful how they treat the youngest working generation. After all, the 20 something’s will be paying for your social security and Medicare benefits, while at the same time realizing that none of these programs will be available to them in the future. I am sorry, but if the older generations are not willing to give up anything then why should the younger generation have to sacrifice. Whether we are talking SS, Medicare or Student loan forgiveness it is all the same thing… deficit spending.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:11 PM, bills442 wrote:

    "I remember going to San Jose State in 1992, I was 20 or 21, and our generation was supposed to be worse of than our parents. Now at 38, it is harder to acheive what my parents did. Two successive bubbles have seen to that."

    Amen to that TrailerParkJawa. I'm 40. gimme a break "first generation poised to do worse"? I'd be lucky to live the luxurious life many of the union and pensioned "parents" of my generation had.

    scandals and bubbles and socialism have wiped out my life's savings in both my home and my 401k. Yes I have a job that pays decent, but I have no future. suck it up 20 somethings. No guarantees in life. I sure didn't get one.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:13 PM, Archipeligo wrote:

    I don't know who to side with in this discussion: Let's review:

    Baby boomers income: Head of household could support a family of five on one income, spouse did not work, Monthly mortgage payment approx: $150.00 month. Employer provided 100% health insurance. A regular savings account at the bank earned 10% interest and their parent's provided them with an inheritance. Steady investments. Pensions, retire at 50. College education fees stagnant.

    GEN Y,Z,NEXT: 2 income household for family of 4. Mortgage payment $1500.00 month. No health insurance. .5% interest from bank. No inheritance, parents do reverse mortgages. Flakey 401K's. Retire at 70. College education fees raisingfaster than inflation.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:13 PM, bills442 wrote:

    you're a little out of touch, these "program" already won't be available for us "40" year olds.

    "The people over forty had better be careful how they treat the youngest working generation. After all, the 20 something’s will be paying for your social security and Medicare benefits, while at the same time realizing that none of these programs will be available to them in the future. I am sorry, but if the older generations are not willing to give up anything then why should the younger generation have to sacrifice. Whether we are talking SS, Medicare or Student loan forgiveness it is all the same thing… deficit spending."

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:13 PM, pkedziora wrote:

    Bravo to the 80 million strong for standing up for their rights. As part of the "older" generation responsible for this mess we are in I say enough is enough. Every business has a moral (and business) obligation to grow their business. If you live in a community you have to give back. And that means more jobs and better paying jobs. I propose a two tiered tax structure: one for companies that add better jobs and a higher tax structure for those that don't. Let's reward entrepreneurs and let those that don't sip their starbucks and eat their crab.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:16 PM, kedo76 wrote:


    I love this, I can't stop reading your comment:

    "If the government doesn't help to create jobs, who is going to?"

    Jeez, yeah, who in the world could create a job if the government doesn't? Man, right on. Exactly.

    You must be 22 and a democrat.

    You should have just said,

    "If the government doesn't give everyone everything they want, then uh, totally not fair."

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:24 PM, mtracy9 wrote:

    The bank CEO's got their bailouts. What about the rest of us?

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:39 PM, jpknlnd wrote:

    As another member suggested, the military option is always open to those "who want to serve their country". I volunteered in 65 and ended up in Vietnam. It was no picnic, but I grew up hard and fast which has served me in good times and bad. Stop looking to D.C. to bail you ain't happenin' bro.

    All you idealistic yuppie wannabes who voted for Obama....You got your "CHANGE" deal with it!

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:40 PM, wyrdmage wrote:

    I am pleased to see so many people of both generations (actually I saw a third in there) express their belief that hard work is sometimes necessary and is beneficial in the end. I worked my way through college and then ended up working at Mickey D's when I graduated because I couldn't find a job. It was frustrating, frightening, and downright unfair. I learned more from those unfair experiences than I did in all of my college classes, so I hope that my children have to sweat through some hard work and difficulties that don't go away unless they persevere. I'm doing fine now, even though the agony of defeat happened again when I was laid off...I eventually obtained training & experience that landed me a more pleasant & higher paying job than where I was headed before the layoff. I remember the janitor of our company who had a PhD in Psychology but couldn't find employment that would use his degree; I was impressed that he was willing to work (at any job) for a living instead of trying to get the govt to take care of him.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:42 PM, TominSJ wrote:

    As someone who, due to my youth, did it the hard way, I have found that there is value in every job. I have been trained by bus boys, janitors, some really great Sergeants, and CEO's. My time spent as a bus boy/dishwasher at 13 years old taught me that you can earn respect of the people you work with even if you hold the lowest job.

    At 17 and in the Army, I was lucky to have some great Sergeants who taught a very young Private about leadership and honor. Leaving the Army for college, I realized that I didn't qualify for financial aid and didn't want to take out a loan. So for the next few years, it was one or at times two jobs and college -- not much of a social life.

    Years later, I look back and can see those moments and people who helped make me successful. I respect those people who make their own way in the world and have found that there are always opportunities, even if it may not be what you want to do. If you are just starting out and nothing else is available try McDonald's, Starbucks or another company. These places are great for learning skills that are useful later in life. You may find that these companies may even offer you a better life than what you initially wanted.

    The bottom line, if you expect the government to give you something -- you are wrong. Government is not a gift giving organization, though some may argue that point, but is there to assist with the large scale issues such as defense.

    For you twenty somethings, which includes my children as well, life is what YOU make it, not what someone gives you. I wish you the best of luck to live your life and not let others live it for you.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:48 PM, makmetall wrote:

    I agree with Todd 110%, I too was a twenty something that was working at ups part time trying to figure out what i wanted to do. Talk about manual labor. I had no college degree because I was going to make it on hard work alone. Well years passed and I was promoted to a driver with no college degree and they told me I could not be promoted until I got my degree. So I did some more hard work, worked 50 hrs a week and went to school at night to finish my college education. Point being nothing is given it is earned. You will learn more with age and see, just because you have an education it is only one thing that may get you an interview, experience and adversity will help you make the right desions in that job you are looking for.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 6:58 PM, lewdRT wrote:

    I am going through my 2nd round (3rd maybe?) of what is basically a career "do-over" almost. I had, up until 2 months ago, a very lucrative job. Now I am looking. So I am working day-to-day as a substitute teacher for now. Low low low paying, but at least it is SOMETHING. I graduated college in 1991 with a Bachelor's in Physics. And with that I delivered pizza for Domino's for nearly a year, living with my parents. I then had 17 years of good-paying positions. I could have one now, if I move or stay away from home during the week.

    I'm not saying it isn't tough; but do it yourself. Don't beg Uncle Sam for pocket change.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:07 PM, tkell31 wrote:

    What a pathetic country the US is turning into. When I was 20 working my way through school I was offered a foreman's job with the construction company I worked for. At 22, after graduating, I was offered an assistant manager position while delivering pizzas. Currently I'm a director for a major insurer, and I started at the bottom handling claims. It's amazing what a little hard work and accountability will get for you. I never had my hand out begging for help. I never blamed my problems on anyone much less the govt. There is a reason it is called work and not play or goofing off or charity. I blame parents. Give your kids everything and all they will expect is someone to keep giving them everything they want.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:11 PM, smallcapmanny wrote:

    LOL— First, To the Canadian’s comments on educated people working at low paying, unskilled jobs like StarBucks, McDonalds, etc… Well guess what buddy, I’ve been to Canada and I have met many young college grads working in the same type of jobs. You act as if Canadian graduates have $100k jobs waiting for them. That’s such a B.S. position to take. Reality is that most workers start at the bottom and work their way up the latter. For all you whiners, move your lazy ASS to Canada to get your government hand out like state of the art health care… yea right…

    Reality Check… College grads/Educated people are what companies look for to help propel that particular business towards growth and profits… Keep in mind most franchise owners are prior associates; hint... they started at the bottom...

    As for college expenses, well join the military, but then again that would require dedication, service to country, and god forbid. Hard work…..

    Well I should apologies... I just realized my tone of cynicism. Just because I served 20yrs in the Air Force, achieved my degree in Aeronautics and my wife worked part time, raised two kids and achieved her degree as well through the means of student loans, which we paid off. And now that my son is serving in the Air Force, working on his electrical engineering degree, and my daughter working full time and going to school full time, living at home—well I shouldn’t expect others in our society to sacrifice and work hard.. That’s unfair of me...

    OOP”S – Did I mention my co-worker who has 7 kids at home, he works full time and attends college full time…

    Did I also mention the cleaning lady here at my job site, legal immigrant, she works full time, takes care of her family and she attends college part time…

    80 Million Whiners… Hard work and sacrifice is the drive of success. Nothing comes easy, so get your whining ass out there, work hard and fight for your success because no one is going to hand it to you.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:12 PM, Howard1ii wrote:

    This group sounds like an excellent reason to restore the draft, maybe the military can teach them a little self-discipline, and help them get their feet on the ground. As college grads they can become commissioned officers and learn some leadership skills. Future potential employers look at military experience as a major plus. 9 years in the Navy gave me a lot of experiences I never would have had if I had sat home and waited for a government hand-out or went back to stay with mom and dad.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:15 PM, gladlylearn wrote:

    Times change.

    The US had WWII from 1941 through about 1992, when Russia imploded. We all had something to do, particularly in 1942. We had ups and downs to some degree, but we had 50 years of hot and cold war driven growth with significant work for everyone. It has taken us about 8 years for it to sink in, but the world has changed. It tends to.

    All this activity masked another problem. In 1900, 50+% of the population was employed on the farm. Today it is 4%, and only 2% actually work on the land. The depression of the 1930's was arguably about the movement from the farm to the city - and manufacturing. Reason? Farm machinery and the tractor. In 1950 ~50% of the population worked in factories, like GM. Now, 12% are employed in manufacturing, and this is declining. Reason? Not outsourcing, but continued advances in machinery and automation. John Henry was a steel drivin' man, but he died trying to compete with the steam drill.

    So, we have new times and will have to find - more likely create - new jobs. It is possible. Who would have thought that places like Microsoft, Yahoo and Google could make so much money selling something that you cannot drop on your foot? (A British definition of a product vs a service). The Web may not be the future, but it is one of the new parts of the future. We are in for a slog until it all sorts out and we see how to create the new world for us to live in.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:18 PM, rgore1 wrote:

    I'm sorry to say that this generation has become a generation of give-me's, that want things they did not earn! Don't want to work at SBUX? How about having an engineering degree and ending up working two jobs just to make ends meet. You do what you have to to provide for your family and see it through. I NEVER considered taking a handout for anything. We called it PRIDE back in the day. My best suggestion for you is to suck it up and stop looking for others to pay your way!

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:21 PM, LACEYLEE wrote:







  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:24 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    Well, well, well.

    Some of these posts get right to the heart of the matter for once.

    The problem is not the system, but the people in it.

    Older generation, I am younger generation. I make no excuses for feeling disheartened about my job hunt. But I also ask that you do two things

    A) stop enabling me, I don't need nor want your help - nor does is build me as a person. DONT HELP

    B) stop taunting me, lest I get discouraged - all I really need is someone to empathize with me. Are you too old or too strong to remember what it is like to still be young and emontional? just shut up and listen if you dont have a kind word or sage advice to give me.

    Now, as a side note:

    And are you guys stupid? it is not 25,000 or 40,000 in student loan debts thats the problem it's when you have 109,000 in debts and degree in a field that is currently going out the window and can't find job but working part time as a server.

    You people are funny you say it like you can go get two jobs right now? Most people are having a hard time getting ONE job that is FULL time at any pay rate. Check your unemployment numbers, the real ones not the ones the government is advertising but throw back in the numbers for discouraged workers, and then factor back in the fact that they now count 32hours a week as a full time work.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:27 PM, 2young2cry wrote:

    Despite the user name I am heading into my mid 40s. I dropped out of college three times before I realized I needed to get to work at something I found meaningful. My experience in the working world confirmed what I had been led to believe; namely that lacking a degree my opportunities would be limited to begin with. I worked for about 6 years before I got to an entry level in my field. I haven't really run the numbers, but I suspect that I would have made out better financially if I had invested the time to complete the degree and shorten the time to get to an entry level.

    When I talk to kids (mine or any other who might listen) about college I typically recommend they go to school and get a degree because the investment of time tends to lead to a positive financial outcome. As with any investment, there is some risk. There is no guarantee that your degree will improve your opportunities - as is the case in an economy where fewer jobs requiring degrees are available.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:36 PM, jeturcotte wrote:

    I can't quite agree with the article. IF [I stress] it were an entitlement, then I might be more inclined to agree... and maybe I am misreading your version of what this individual said, BUT [I stress], using government funds to put people to work is not even remotely the same thing as 'hey, pay off my loans, give me free healthcare, food, and, oh, I don't wanna pay any taxes either.'

    I would agree that getting ANY job is good because, even if you are a MS in GUI design and your first job was at Micky-Dee's, you have shown your potential next employer that you will put your shoulder to grind stone when necessary. This, however, can also be said of said same GUI guru repaving roads, rebuilding bridges, guarding coasts or, if they're lucky, pushing papers for some local administrative office (of one variety or another.) Meanwhile, they have a paycheck, which bleeds taxes which goes back into the government to hire more younguns who will pay more taxes, not to mention... oh, I dunno.. BUY products from so many of the favored stock tickers around these parts.

    Someone said that the government is not a 'gift giving organization' and I agree with the theory that people should not be EXPECTING handouts... but this is not an accurate representation of the government. It is US... negotiating with US... to balance out OUR needs with OURSELVES, collecting enough money so that it accomplish things on OUR behalf that we could not realistically do individually.

    Those needs may be protection from crime, fire, foreign invasion, industrial carcinogens and atmospheric imbalances, space aliens, whatever... but it includes what we collectively decide it should include... including jobs programs when the quote-unquote free-market trips over its own blind greed (as it has a few times now.)

    If we're going to cut our young off from the fruits of our collective labor, then we should, at the very least, be doing the same for all these businesses and corporations who are every bit as wussified. No?

    Welp, it's an opinion. Take it or leave it. =)

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:36 PM, paducah5102 wrote:

    in the words of Lucinda Matlock: "...weak and degenerate sons and daughters, life is too strong for you

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 7:44 PM, EMP70 wrote:

    I'm old (47) but have a 20 year old in college on full scholarship. Yes, it's a state school and her scholarship pays her dorm, tuition, etc. She also worked during the summer and applied for other grants. We're not in a low income bracket so anything she received was not based on financial need.

    Had she not gotten these things, she'd be living at home and we'd help her with tuition. I think too many 20 somethings want to live the high life, go to the "right" schools, and get into massive debt to do it. Sometimes you just have to suck it up for 4 years, live at home if you have to, work and go to school if you have to, in order to try to graduate with a minimum of debt. Your choices are a lot easier if you're not burdened with a $50,000 bill upon graduation.

    I think the point Wenning is making is to get out there and work, wherever you can, and not march on Washington asking for your share of the hand out. If that's our future, we are truly doomed.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:00 PM, LessGovernment wrote:

    Todd ol' boy, you are on to something.

    I don't think we have to get too technical to see what has happened.

    When I was a lad in the early 50's, I had chores to do like cut the grass, take out the trash, weed the lawn, clean up your room, help in the garden, wash the car, etc. If I did a good job, I got a small allowance. I was taught to save part of what I made in a passport savings account (I wonder if they still have these accounts now?). I also wanted to play baseball and had to try out for the team. I practiced with my Dad throwing and catching and hitting the ball and when try outs came, I made the team. I also learned that there were rules to follow in baseball and I learned to work as part of a team.

    Now, let's just stop right there and look at where we might have gone wrong.

    Young kids today and for the last generation, have not had chores except from the most enlightened of parents. They were mostly entitled to an allowance and most everything else they wanted. I routinely watch in utter amazement as my neighbor, he is as old as I am, cuts his own grass while his teenage son frolics on a skateboard or finds other ways to waste his time doing nothing productive.

    If kids don't have to earn money, if kids are not forced to save part of what they earn, then who is going to teach them the value of a dollar, the pride in a job well done, and a sense of the value of work and money. Who will teach the work ethic if kids are not shown from early childhood that one has to work. The answer is obvious. They don't learn these most basic of life's lessons when they are young, so they end up with strange sense of value (will pay $120 for a pair of athletic shoes), and have no sense of what it is like to earn money.

    Worse still, we have now for over a generation promoted the most boring game on the planet (if played by the inept), soccer, as a game in which everyone makes the team, everyone plays, so kids don't learn the lesson of perseverance as a means of dealing with failure. So, later in life, when they do fail they don't know how to respond to failure.

    80 million. Yeah. That sounds about right. 80 million spoiled brats. Their parents should be spanked.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:01 PM, ibropin wrote:

    After school in the 70s jobs were tough also and paid very little . I found the guy that was doing the best of anyone I could find . I went to him ask for a job as his gopher (which he did not have but liked my attitude ) $49.00 per week , rent cost me 50.00 a month it took everything I could make to live but I surely after a year knew how he made his money . Have not looked back since and have done very well. I did not look to the government to hand me a job. wake up son , have a back bone get out there and figure it out stop crying to the feds to give you a hand out . They will but, every time you will lose a little more freedom and pretty soon we will have a country filled with people like you

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:03 PM, scumminsusaf wrote:

    Amen to this article, unfortunately my generation and the up and coming generation is a bunch of whiney, "give me, give me" babies.

    I have another institution that is always hiring, the United States Military. As an active duty member myself I feel a sense of pride giving something back to the country that gave me life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What have the 80 million strong (weak) done for their country lately, other than ask for a handout because times are tough?

    Sign up, serve your four years, and get out with a massive amount of experience and perhaps even a usable skill or trade (other than slinging burgers at Mickey D's). Oh, and earn a salary, money for higher education, and life skills. At the very least you will have done more than 98% of the rest of the country.

    This country was built on those in unfortunate circumstances who had the wherewithal and the spine to stand up, ruck up, and get elbow deep in hard work to earn what was theirs.

    If you don't believe me, as your grandparents who lived through the last "economic downturn". Guess what, most of them where to proud to take a handout, and if they did, they damn sure did something in return for it.

    If these 80 million are the future of America we are all doomed. We might as well move to China, afterall, communism is equality for all. If you need the government gives. Sounds right up their alley.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Tobyonekenobie wrote:

    I wish I could have had a job at the crabshack paying $7 plus an hour and all the crab I could eat in 1981 when I was shucking oysters for $2.25 an hour. My way out was enlisting in the Navy...28 years later I still love my job and I've reached the rank of Commander. Point being...times were tough in the past and people did what they had to...turns out I made a great career choice. I guess things aren't bad enough yet for college kids to join.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:14 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    actually. i was planning on finishing my degree and then joining the AF. ^ ^

    only joining for the money, though. I'll be honest, I have absolutely no other reason though for wanting to join. none of the delusioned pride in country bull crap my father's generation feeds me about the country. to me joining is just a paycheck.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:20 PM, nin4086 wrote:

    If you don't whine you will get nothing. Yes, they are wusses but

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 8:38 PM, peters46 wrote:


    That may have been for some boomers, but sounds more like our parents. In the late 70s most households of four were supportted by working parents (both). It was a side effect of women's lib - so many women went to work outside the home (to keep up with the joneses that the cost of living went up until most women had to work outside the home just to survive. Mortgage payment closer to 200/mo. If there was any health insurance, it required a significant contribution from the employee. Ten percent interest? Perhaps for one or two years when inflation was 15-20%. I inherited some family photos from one and got about $180 from the other's life insurance. Pension? Retire at 50? Forget it. I wasn't in the government. Laid off at 50. Got a degree in computer programming just in time for the tech bust in 2000. Worked my way thru college bagging groceries, and used up all investments for college and living expenses. And I am one of the lucky ones. Our parents life savings (in the bank) were cut way down in value by the double digit inflation, with prices doubling and tripling in a few short years (73 to ?). You can afford a savings account?

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:05 PM, smallcapmanny wrote:

    TO; thisislabor….

    I have many fun facts for you about working hard and busting your ass instead of whining… I am a first generation American born Cuban…. My parents came to America in 1958, just before sht face Castro took over…..No silver here spoon buddy…Just pure American pride and HARD ASS WORK---

    You have a point about unemployment, I concur…However, let’s be clear that unless you’re becoming a doctor etc... Your $109K college bill is of your choice and coupled with a field that is “going out the window” (your words). Seems you dug your self a hole... Be honest, bad economy or not. If your choice of study is “going out the window” then it was a bad choice. Inevitably your chosen career would have failed.

    I am 48yrs of age, in the mid 80’s through, even now…I saw the writing on the wall when these self righteous groups where pushing the PC (Political Correctness)mentality. They, PC Advocates, created this mess. The PC attitude took power away from parents to discipline their kids, took power away from the community to tell a neighbor hood kid to stop destroying that mail box. The new wave of thinking was to reward your child with money for doing well in school or doing house hold chores…WHAT A Fn JOKE….

    Now that you college grads have to flip burgers…life sucks... Welcome to life...

    Your parents should have spent more time raising you instead of pampering you.

    My kids understood that it is their responsibility of performing their best in school, doing what is asked of them at home. They understood from mom and dad that when they ask us to buy them something, pay for their sports etc…they are actually asking mom and dad to work for them.. When they reached their teens, instead of buying them $120 pair of shoes, I would give them cash… Amazingly they would come home with several clothing items as suppose to one pair of shoes… This is why my son, in the Air Force, at the age of 22, has nearly $10K in saving, started his IRA and TSP from day one and has already paid for his GI bill, giving him $75K towards college… He’s finished his associate toward EE, He’s stationed in England; he’s taken vacation to Spain, Amsterdam, Canary Island and France… And no he’s not perfect.. he loves to drink, chase woman and fight….He’s a hell raiser--- By the way, he’s flown home 5 times from England, not once did he ask to help pay for his ticket or car rental….

    So you see “thisislabor” quit your whining, get your hands dirty, work hard…

    PS.. Who’s stupid? The guy that paid $109K for a doomed degree or the burger flipper that just got promoted making $50k plus a year---Yes its hard work…

    By the way, I do make excellent income in my communications field which is not related to my Aeronautical degree from Embry Riddle... I am also teaching my self stock trading to supplement my income.. I average about $600 a week…

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:07 PM, MartianHost wrote:

    A good war would clean out the surplus grads. They got off easy with Iraq and Afghanistan. As Michael Moore puts it, Capitalists love a Dead Peasant. Bring back that the draft. That will solve the unemployment problem. Keep on crying, don't be fooled, this is a depression.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:09 PM, Baggerdude wrote:

    I agree with Todd Wenning ... I am the 1st in my family of generations to have a college degree. Small town with small jobs. Little future. My folks decided I should go to college and I did ... with fits and starts and stops. Worked in steel, construction, farming to get funds to get the degree.

    Received a teaching degree because little for a zoology major to do in 1967 ... taught school, when to school nights/weekends and summers for 3 years. Applied to every dental school in the country. Accepted by 2.

    Funded my dental school with savings, selling a car, selling a house, government loans (no, not the ones Obama is talking about), scholarships. All paid back early.

    Now, have several dental offices with high a 6 figure income (and 6 figure taxes to boot).

    Here's my advice to the new graduates: Who promised you a job? What makes you think you are worth more than $30K a year at best? You have no experience, no real world skills, just a degree. Take what is offered ... work hard and become something other than a drain on the economy. Don't expect 'hand outs' (but, I'm sure this administration will find you a job in government to wipe out your loans).

    And ... STOP WHINING !

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:20 PM, FoolTheRest wrote:

    In perusing the 80 Million Strong Website, I noted an “Add your Idea” section. I added mine, though I doubt it will be published on the site: “Graduating students with degrees for which there is no demand should be considered a form of fraud.”

    As an unemployed person in my late twenties, I can certainly understand the trouble people have finding a job similar to his/her last one right now. Young or old, it is tough; I know. But how does this make it the government’s responsibility, or by extension, all of our responsibility?

    For young people, I propose the following advice:

    1. In high school, get a part time job and apply for every single scholarship you are eligible for. (Literally, several hundred applications. If it does not take you 5-10 hours a week, you are doing it wrong)

    2. Start saving and investing.

    3. Go to college for something you enjoy, find interesting, and understand there is a future demand for. (TMF MileHigh should encourage Mines for his kids ;) Once you realize you can handle the work load, get a part time job. It will provide pocket money, an understanding for the value of a dollar, and how to manage your time.

    4. When summer comes, get a full time job. If masochistic, get two. Repeat step 2.

    5. Graduate and become a Military Officer. Gain leadership and management experience.

    6. Deploy. Since you are being paid extra and have fewer expenses, repeat step 2.

    7. Come home. Use your down time and benefits, whether tuition assistance or GI Bill to pursue an advanced degree.

    8. Deploy again (make no mistake; it will likely happen multiple times in four years). Repeat step 2.

    9. Exit the military and leverage your skills into a well-paid, enjoyable management or sales position. Repeat step 2.

    I cannot recommend this for everyone, as it involves hard work and sacrifice of immediate pleasure for long-term reward as well as service to the country that so many seem to instead want to open their hands to. Hopefully, though, you will notice a theme to the steps. Then, maybe when you are laid off in a recession in your late twenties, you will feel comfortable searching for the right job rather than joining a coalition looking to place your own risk and responsibilities on the rest of the nation.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:24 PM, smallcapmanny wrote:


    Listen don’t join the AF, your positive attitude will only serve to get you dishonorably discharged. Face it, your not cut out for hard work and sacrifice…Just go get your welfare check and watch Oprah, and Dr. Phil or sit home and play PS3 while the rest of the world works hard at fixing the economy so you can get that six figure salary… We’ll call you when we have it all sorted out….

    Oh did I mention I am 48yrs old, I am going on 7 weeks of work with out a day off…

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:38 PM, timeinthewind wrote:

    I picked suckers off tobacco plants as a teen and serviced copiers right out of college. I ended up in a great career in the long run but never thought twice about whether those early jobs we're beneath me. I needed money just to pay for college and any paying job was a good job at the time.

    It is not the parents, the governments or anyone else's responsibility to give you more prosperity than your parents enjoyed. It takes work and it is as possible today as it ever was.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:55 PM, hmcmcole wrote:

    I got my first programmer-analyst job because I was crazy enough to include my short order cook and retail clerk jobs on my resume.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:56 PM, standridge wrote:

    I seriously doubt they have 80million. I guess thats just a number of some age group and the few slackers who marched claimed to have 80 million followers because they assumed, notice that starts with ass, that everyone in their age group agreed with them.

    There are plenty of people in this country who need help taking care of themselves but not the young and the strong. If things get truly bad, and things aren't truly bad now, these young people protesting for their share of the bailout would not survive.

    My Dad has been to at least 15 different countries fulfilling his passion for mission work and although I do not share his passion his work has had a profound effect on me. Send these bailout kids to any of these countries where they minister to common ie mostly poverty level people who live with the most basic necessities and they would come back appreciating the fact that their playstation still works.

    There are plenty of hard working, sincere, passionate, and genuine people left to take care of this country and the truth will prevail.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:57 PM, bbaird3 wrote:

    I was digging a foxhole at Ft. Bragg for my 19th birthday and my 20th birthday was spent in Saudi Arabia. I earned the money I needed for college and never begged for a bailout. These bunch of sniveling kids need both the spanking they never had and to learn about the value of sweat. No wonder they voted for Obama in droves, they swallow the pill of dependency on govenment like the Ritalin they took growing up.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 9:59 PM, 26yrstogo wrote:

    To the 20 somethings: I was in your shoes. I was 1 of 12 kids who worked my way through college with multiple jobs. I graduated and thought the business world would welcome me with open arms ... I was wrong. I was engaged to be married so I took an honest job in a retail store. The hours were brutal but I met some great people. One day I met a man who changed my life. He was a self made millionaire and he was impressed by my service and attention to detail. He offered to mentor me and introduced me to a book written in the 1920s. The author of this book was Napoleon Hill and the book was "Think & Grow Rich''. This book set me on a path to success that continues some 30 years later.

    There will be bumps and bruises along your journey. Hard work, determination, intense focus, and a great attitude will propel you ahead of the competition. The world will give you what you ask for if... you are willing to pay the price. You are in the greatest country the world has ever known when it comes to economic opportunity. Determine what you want and then pay the price in time and labor Before long you will be successful. Now go ahead and achieve your dreams!

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:02 PM, Amritraj wrote:

    To all those people who 'served' in various branches of the military, did you ever consider that to a significant extent the U.S. military IS a government handout. Of course some military is essential, there's always the chance that Canada or Mexico might invade us.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:11 PM, daniel940 wrote:

    Yup, I came out of Cornell in '92 when jobs were still slim pickings for Liberal Arts grads. I did office temp work for almost a year, living at home until I got a $19,000 job at a midsized PR firm in NYC. If I had actually worked just 40-hour weeks, that would have been the equivalent of $9/hr. However, no one at that level left before 7pm, and I commuted 90min each way (uphill in the snow, ha ha). It sucked, especially after the promise of a gilded life after graduating from an Ivy League. You make your way, you make do, you reinvent yourself over and over, and like most people, you hit a stride somewhere in your 30s. You can't sit there at 22 and complain about your professional life. You're literally protesting an imaginary future. There's plenty of money out there for all of us, you just have to put in your time for the later payoff - Starbucks, bagboy, secretary, bartender, whatever. When my sister graduated Wharton MBA in '87, most of her class got waiter/waitress jobs - many on campus. They were also told the world would never be the same, and eventually those who worked hard and kept their noses to the grindstone did fine.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:13 PM, yatooma wrote:

    Where is the sense in moaning that you are $50-100,000 in debt for a college degree? Possibly that is where the root of the problem is. Thinking y

    an expensive degree from a big name university will actually improve your position in life. Unfortunately that degree has the same value as a much less expensive state school degree. In reality most people would be better off with no degree and no student loan to hang over their head. I graduated debt free because I kept a job the whole time I was going. I will agree, your true character is revealed during times of pressure and hard work.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:26 PM, SissyTheClown wrote:

    Right on, Todd! You, LessGovernment and bbaird3 have them pegged. I worked from the time I was 15: suckering and priming tobacco that summer to get money so I'd have bus fare to go to my department store job at 16. I worked from then on until I was 56 and became disabled. These kids today have no sense of the real world...they just expect to get the best immediately. They get degrees in philosophy or some such idiotic subject and expect somebody to hand them a six-figure job right out of college. Get real boys and girls! Work for your money. You gotta climb the ladder from the bottom up and show employers that you are willing to WORK hard!

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:45 PM, AirForceFool wrote:

    We live in the best country on the planet (MHO) with more opportunities then has ever been witnessed in the history of the planet, and folks are saying the last generation has "wrecked" it for them.... utter silliness. Thanks to tons of programs out there like the lotto scholarship, grants and finincial aid, more and more "kids" are going to college... and those that are smart and persevere will graduate... never mind that nearly 60% of college students do not have their degree after 6 years... how that's possible is beyond me... even the engineering students should be able to finish in that time... and good for them.... but like others have said, with no practical experience, what do you think a degree gets you? Especially a non-technical degree. I don't think I owe anyone a hand-out... not the banks that were "to big to fail" or the not-so-smart college kid that felt the need to take on $40K in loans for a Political Science degree (my undergraduate) because the were to lazy to work extra hours while getting their degree so they'd have less in loans.... seriously... I've seen college kids using loan loot for everything from going out to vacations... how smart is that? And YES, the military is hiring... provided you're qualified. If you come to my office and tell me that you have a non-tech degree, and a GPA of 2.9, I'm going to tell you the truth... you're not going to be very competative... oh, and that's if you don't have any medical conditions or civil involvement that would disqualify you from even applying... but you know what... starting salary for an Lt is $45K... we'll train you to the max, and after 4 years, you'll be making $70K... we'll send you all over the world, we'll get you a government security clearance so if you do decide to seperate after 4 years, you can hopefully get a nice job as a contractor.

    But I digress... hard work is rewarded... and although sometimes laziness is also rewarded, you have to live with taxpayers saying enough and cutting you off. I feel bad for the students that are having a tough time finding a job that pays well... welcome to the real world... college is over... time to step up, do the best you can and thank your stars that you're American... the recession won't last, and times will get better.... and then they'll get worse again in 10 years (or however many)... so save some loot for a rainy day, and when you do get a good job, make sure that you're completely indespensible...


    One raise away from six figures.... yes ladies and gentlemen... that's a military salary... :P

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:48 PM, technomanslade wrote:

    Amazingly, I'm not that much older than these people - but I'm stunned that their work ethic is so much different.

    I started working when I was 15, and after earning my Business Degree, I went into the Navy as an officer. I wasn't content to go into the standard "ship driving" community either - I took the much more painful route and became a nuclear propulsion engineer. (Now my backup plan is better than a lot of people's primary plan!) Six years, two deployments, countless underway time and four years of geographic separation from my wife (she's working on her PhD) later, and I'm staying Navy and we're doing just fine. It just took a some sacrifice. The Navy is always looking for others willing to serve - but its competitive. It's not the milk-and-cookies, no-pain-all-gain the 80 Million Strong want, so I don't think we'll be seeing their applications any time soon.

    To amritaraj: Sounds like you don't understand that the freedoms you enjoy in this country come with a significant cost. Here's a quote for you: "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you're reading this in English, thank a Marine."

    To anyone else who doesn't believe the sacrifices made on your behalf by our fighting men and women are necessary: "When you [soldiers] get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a p**sy."

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 10:54 PM, AirForceFool wrote:

    amritaraj wrote: To all those people who 'served' in various branches of the military, did you ever consider that to a significant extent the U.S. military IS a government handout. Of course some military is essential, there's always the chance that Canada or Mexico might invade us.

    Feel free to sleep under the very blanket of freedom that is provided to you by the brave men and women in the armed forces and expect them to protect your right to complain about it. You've earned that right... through birth... also, please feel free to sign up for your free government handout at the nearest MEPS. I'll go nuts, and guess that you're qualified in spite of your belief that the biggest threat to your safety is Mexico and Canada (though I have been worried about a corss-border excursion from the north for our delicious bacon).


  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 11:13 PM, skoog8 wrote:

    These 80 million people with thier apathetic entitlement attitudes are exactly the reason why Obama, the King of Entitlement, is our President. NO ONE is entitled to anything. Hard work, determination, and a heavy does of humility would serve these 80 million wusses well.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 11:19 PM, tocker100 wrote:

    If you don't have a are a fool (small f) if you don't take a look at the military.....fantastic training, education and work experience, cutting edge technology, better leadership development than any corporation (bar none) and money for college when you get out. For those with a pile of college debt already...the military might help you pay that back.

  • Report this Comment On October 06, 2009, at 11:23 PM, thisislabor wrote:


    thank you for the sage advice.


    that is a great book, "Think and Grow Rich" I have read this one too. several times in fact. I think I probably need to read it again. Thanks!


    same conclusion I had come to actually! Rediculously good benefits, and great pay if your willing to stay in there for more than four years.


    interesting thoughts, one I have been slowly coming to myself. Unless ofcourse it is a law degree but otherwise same conclusion I have been forming.

    Airforcefool, and technomanslade,

    And you guys know the real numbers on what it pays in the military? and yet you do not think that is absolutely rediculous by comparison to 4 years spent in the "business" world?

    well even if you are delusional, I still am planning on joining, I just wont tell my buddies I think their full of it. yep I can hear my hoorah! now with the best of them.

    engineering is probably a career I should consider when I go in, and yes I can get in, I missed one question on my asvab.


    Your responses indicate your age. Only thing I have to say is:

    "Ah, there there now, I know these young kids these days are just whiny. I hear it all the time from them now a days. It will be ok though, eventually they'll get hungry and realize they got to work to eat like you and me."

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:10 AM, Bootstrapsforall wrote:

    Sure, seven bucks an hour isn't enough to make rent, but think of the crab meat.

    A generation has been lied to, preyed upon, exploited, all the while doing everything they were told to, is a bunch of whiners when they realize that the true value of an education is an insurmountable debt and at best a part-time job?

    It takes a massive ignorance of basic psychology to blame 18 year olds for wanting to go to college, a path that they have been told is absolutely critical for future success.

    I'm sure none of you ever got help from anyone, huh?

    I'm sure none of us hated it when our elders told us that we didn't work hard enough and just wanted a handout. Even though that mythical "culture of entitlement" is a completely natural result of the societal norms.

    Lets just ignore that tuition rates have been exploding, wages have stagnated, and financial aid opportunities have dropped. It sure is great to have a minimum wage job to barely manage paying off the interest alone on the student loans. At least they learn some character. That's all the payoff they need, right?

    You all need to get off your high horses and realize that, no, a little elbow grease is not all you need to get a good life.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:21 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    I'm sorry I guess maybe it is my response that indicates my age. Must have been a typo up there.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:26 AM, gayledon wrote:

    the reason they're not better off than their parents is they spend way too much time sniveling instead doing. we have a generation of bright people that may not be real smart. perhaps they should try using a little ass-power and quit blaming their parents for every thing that's wrong in their life.



  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:36 AM, 0hman wrote:

    I went to College in the 90's. Got a degree in EET. I found myself delivering pizza's at first. Then I landed a job in a small R&D lab. It didn't last long. I bounced from job to job. I'm still bouncing. If I could get together with 80 million other people to demand a better stake I would. I'm 45 yrs old now. I was in the Army too. Business is not shy about spending money to lobby the government to rig the game in their favor. They do it all the time. So 80 million kids want to do the same. I don't understand how it's bad for them but good for corporations. In Minnesota, Northwest Airlines lobbied for and got lots of taxpayer money to build an airport. They didn't take long to show us all how worthless that was. Our govt subsidizes all kinds of garbage that lobbyists demand and get. I guess if the socialism isn't benefiting you, in this discussion, you are dead set against it. It will be interesting to see how this 80 million strong voter block influences the next elections. I'm sure the people here are doing nothing to curry any favor with them. Ah well. I am also glad of one decision I made early on. To never have kids. It seems more and more people are doing that these days. I wonder if it has anything to do with the way we manage our economy.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:53 AM, jmerrittdevoe wrote:

    Right on! Todd Wenning. I grew up on a farm in Montana where the work ethic was strong and the mantra was: "Use it up; wear it out; make it do; or do without." When I became head-of-household with a young child in 1976, I didn't have a college degree and no experience in the work force. So I took a job as a grunt on a sheetrock crew and worked circles around the young jocks who "wouldn't walk through the door" for what I earned. Something better came along and I "worked my way up" to satisfying and rewarding employment. No one needs to go without a job; one just has to recognize that he or she is responsible for his/her own welfare and that any honest labor is a good place to start.


  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 1:30 AM, PALH wrote:

    kedo76: Of course Mr. Dell and Mr. Gates have created a few jobs. My point is that there is a recession. Their plaintive martyrdom aside, there is a large core truth to what that group is saying. The irresponsible, tunnel-visioned destructiveness of the financial industry, abetted by regulation-phobic so-called conservative political leadership, has sent the country to the brink of an economic abyss. The situation IS the fault of the generation,my generation, that preceded theirs. Their sense of entitlement may be ridiculous, but it is no more ridiculous than the presumptuousness of the wannabe plutocrats who have blithely stuck this country in the mud and STILL expect gigantic bonuses. Just because Mr. Wenning had the good luck to land a job in the midst of this chaos hardly gives him the right to stick his nose in the air and proclaim himself the better of his peers.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 1:33 AM, PsycheDaddy wrote:

    When I went to college and as now, students really don't have a plan. They must make one, asking theirselfs some simple questions. What do they like to do? What are they interested in? How much money do they won't to make? Where are the jobs and what's the availibility? And things like that. One of the biggest things they don't take advantage of is "career week". When companies come to their school seeking employees. They must go and meet these people, find out who they are and stay in contact with them. How many companies are there to apply at and not just once. They have to have some perserverance. I wish I could go through it one more time.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 1:39 AM, PALH wrote:

    ``These 80 million people with thier apathetic entitlement attitudes are exactly the reason why Obama, the King of Entitlement, is our President. NO ONE is entitled to anything. Hard work, determination, and a heavy does of humility would serve these 80 million wusses well.''

    right, skoog. It's completely Obama's fault the unemployment rate's at 10%, his fault that Bush had to pony up $700 billion in no-strings-attached corporate welfare and didn't even bother to follow the money they gave away. The real entitlement monarchy, the Bush Administration and his rubber-stamp GOP congress, squandered a Democratic-built surplus on a massive giveaway to the coddled rich of this country and then started an off-the-books war in Iraq to boot.

    What happens to the millions who have lost their jobs despite hard work, determination and humility because of conservatives' bungling at the economic levers?

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 1:55 AM, rmiers1 wrote:

    A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I caddied for a dollar fifty cents for 18 holes, If you doubled bagged ya got 3 plus tip, if ya did it morning and evening ya got a minimum of 8 bucks with fees and tips. YOU were rich at 14-15 years old. Hot, sweaty, long hour work (lots of salt pills). But I was rich.

    After high school grad I got a job selling cars. They fired me on the third day because I complained about a used condom on the floor of the demonstation of a gentleman and his 10-11 daughter, He saw it and was polite but drove back to the dealership and didn't say goodbye.

    I didn't see the humor and was fired for it.

    It pissed me off and I walked down the street and a kind cajun hired me without the story of my firing.

    I loved selling cars and meeting people and it resonated with my customers. I was top guy at the end of the summer and had made 2200. I could have paid cash for a sport impala.

    Fast foward, I became a nationally recognized young sales guy at 23 and made training films for GM I went from chevy to cadillac and MB, and ended up manager for a metro pontiac deal (2nd in metro), Figured out I would never own my own deal because they were overpriced, I did several other thing and now am doing OK.

    Enough of that, just want to document from a caddie to a master salesman and the end result.

    Lastly, my nephew, several years ago, graduated *BBA)with a average grade point average and could not get a job. My brother, extremely skilled also worked for months trying to get his son a job. Finally, he landed a entry level sales position, (selling HMO's) and after a hard first year hit gold with the sale of a major US retailer. This kid had the wherewithall to go after the big one (nobody helped him) Bingo, the pro bowl....hasn't made less the six figures since.

    I hope this helps many,,,,,,,but if only was worth all this darn typing....hard times build character and thankfulness


  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 2:31 AM, NOTvuffett wrote:

    If I told you the hardships in my life and also my business partner's, you wouldn't believe me. I am tired of these crybabies. I had to take jobs i didn't want, why should they sit at the house with a government check and say "i put out 10 applications and nothing happened?".

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 6:18 AM, JFT45 wrote:

    Mr. Wenning is correct, the sense of entitlement in this country has most definitely run amok! I worked in a Jack-in-the-Box, a gas station, various retail positions, college work study, earn $$$ to pay my expenses while in school and contract positions way out of my field that did not pay much after graduation just to survive and pay my student loans. With patience and perserverence I now have a decent career with no help from the govt. thank you very much. I also do not delude myself into thinking the company I work for owes me a living and therefore spend significant time keeping current in my field.

    For your own sakes, stop crying to the government that life's unfair, get off your duffs and give up the ridiculous (and self-destructive) notion that you are entitled to good times.

    Things could be worse, you could be getting shot at in Afghanistan.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 6:46 AM, CalliGraf wrote:

    I find all the "Enlist, you lazy brats" comments interesting. My family served (mostly Navy, one Marine [we loved him, too]) in every war since the Revolution. The military does have fairly strict physical requirements these days, though. For example, my hearing loss (deaf in one ear due to a childhood virus) means I didn't qualify. And reasonably so--do you want a half-deaf person on sentry duty? Still, that's about 700,000 people in the US who can't and shouldn't join, and that's just for hearing issues. So while I think the military and peace corp are great ideas, I will suggest that they aren't going to be options for everyone.

    I finished college in '91 and found no jobs in my field of study. I'd been looking for teaching jobs, but there were no full time ones in my area. As I'd been born to older parents and knew it would be my duty to take care of them soon, moving too far away wasn't an option. (Remember duty to family? Some kids do actually consider it.) So I took a minimum wage job, and lived with a crazy roommate (literally--she was institutionalized later) so I could pay back my student loans. While on the job I learned everything I could from my coworkers and, while they didn't have a promotion path, I was able to move into another job that paid better. And then I found another job that paid the same, but taught me a whole lot of computer skills that I needed. I held on to that job while taking care of my parents as they died of cancer (Dad's VA benefits were a joke, by the way, don't count on them if you do take the "join the military" advice in this thread). Then I got my current job which is paying pretty well and offering me a chance at management--in the field for which I went to school, way back when.

    So yes, there are responsibilities, opportunities, and roadblocks to be juggled. It's a winding road, as the song says. I can see why the current crop of school grads are scared--I was, too. And if we put together a Depression style WPA for them, I'd be ok with it. But check out the film and photos from that era, kids. Those jobs were way harder than working at McD's. Good luck! And remember, pushing a broom never killed anyone. Think of it as the upper body workout that you can't afford to get at a gym.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 7:44 AM, calmdog wrote:

    BRAVO! Here's to the end of the "age of entitlement!"

    Did we baby boomers actually create that frame of mind?Thanks for putting into words that attitude that was leading me away from hiring ANYONE under 30!

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 9:30 AM, nothingdoingpal wrote:


    you're hiring now? i wake up everyday at 5am... does that impress you? i'll definitely be on time...

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Biergeliebter wrote:

    Well said! And I've read some great comments too.

    As for my two cents, it makes sense that the recent college graduates are having trouble finding jobs in their field. With the current economy I know plenty of recently retired that are jumping back in the job force or people who were laid off who are also looking for employment making for stiff competition. When going through applications recently for a health educator position we were filling, I was amazed at the number of outstanding backgrounds I saw for a mid-level job in our rural town. Which would you choose to educate the community; the person with no degree who had successfully organized and marketed a statewide Pre-K program or someone who had a masters in public health but no experience? Now what if they only had a bachelor's degree?

    Last I heard, the percentage of people working in the field of their degree was ridiculously low, but it has been below 50% for a decade or two. And with the stiff competition in the work force right now and businesses closing up, these wusses should be happy when they get the job at McDonalds because at least it wasn't the Dominos that just went out of business.

    As someone who learned more from my stint in the Army than my time at college, I have to agree with kedo76 and others that the kids in this group are lazy. When I got out of college I was working 3 jobs so I could pay the bills. So yes, the $7.25 an hour at Mcdonalds won't pay the bills, but add it to the tips you make delivering pizzas when not working at Mcdonald's and you will get by. And when someone is looking at your resume next year and sees that you are working 2 jobs, neither of which are related to your degree, they will see determination. That's worth a lot more in the job market than a degree. Let's face it - how many people have you met that have degrees but are complete idiots?

    This group is just another example of the 'entitlement mentality' that has taken over America. Recent reports I've read said that over 60% of federal government spending went to entitlement programs and interest. Think about that. 60%. Is it any wonder that this bunch of yahoos thinks the government should take care of them because they are too lazy to do it themselves?

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 9:43 AM, JibJabs wrote:

    The movement is silly and misguided but they are tuned into one thing: massive generational theft from debt-fueled entitlement programs. We will pay the taxes to cover the shortfall or the USD will default, and that is the worst consequence of all. We've been dealt a rough hand disguised as a royal flush. Should it be that surprising that some want the man behind the curtain in Washington to wave his magic wand as we have been taught to expect our whole lives?

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:15 AM, nwind wrote:

    I am at "the apex of the pig in the python; 53 years young and I'll be honest many of these kids make me vomit.

    Now I'm not painting them all with the same brush, but give me a break here.

    I built homes with my Grandfather when I was in high school. Yes I'm going to tell one of those stories so maybe one of you entitlement kids will change the way you act and think.

    My Grandfather came from Holland in the early 50's with 5 kids and nothing but a dream for an OPPORTUNITY TO WORK HARD !

    He along with my father who was 20 at the time where made to work in a lumber camp for 2 years in northern Ontario. We live near Toronto now.

    Now back then immigrants had to prove themselves that they would and could contribute to our country.

    Now in Canada immigrants are given it all.They are given dental coverage ,eye coverage,full health coverage,money for recreation that my kids don't get and they where born here,credit card, and to top it off around $2500 monthly for living expenses.

    My parents and their brothers and sisters,which numbered 12 in total all from Holland eventually became very well off by starting in very low paying difficult crapy jobs.

    Here's a kicker for you though.All of those siblings above who worked their butts off for 40-50 years are entitled to $1040 CA monthly in Canada pension. Les than half of what the immigrants get.

    Less than half of a person who contributed nothing but making his way to our country.I know I'm not PC. I don't care it's wrong.

    All of them made their way starting with hard work and no promises until all of them became middle class,upper middle calss in their earnings. One of my uncles who is the son of the Grand Father I mentioned became a milliopnaire through realestate.

    My Gramps was a depression era worker and completely opposite of these entitlement wuses.

    His favorite saying was; The only free cheese is in the mouse trap!

    I learned very hard phyisical work but was happy to do it because it gave me spending money in high school and college.

    So now without going through my last 30 year story I am 53 in 2009 and for the last 10 years because of circumstances beyond my control I have had to reinvent myself. I have and am doing that successfully through internet marketing.It has been super tough raising kids in this situation.I had to go back and work crappy jobs again making 1/3 of what I was making..I made it halfway through 30-50 and out at IBM. My wife who also had a so called good job has been in and out of work in those same 10 or so years and she is a model employee.

    So what !

    When do we get our bailout ? lol

    I blame many things including some of us bably boomer parents and now their offspring to me are actually even worse than some of us boomers in giving their kids everything because yuo know we want them to have no challenges and never struggle and have life just go along with no problems.

    What planet are you folks living on ?

    This is hurting us all in produciing a weak society.

    We go by the same thinking as my Gramps; we make our kids work and get discipline. Forced if we have to.

    I tell the kids no one will care when you get into this real world and make a living so you better get mentally tough.

    Anyway I'm looking 6 figures in the eye again soon and I did it without the government.

    Imagine that !

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:22 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    Fine I'll be honest. I'll just say it. I want a free bail out too. I mean everyone else on this board has gotten one so far. Especially the people about take up SS retirement benefits and save a thing for their retirement.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:23 AM, pompanobeach wrote:

    Imagine that. Baby boomer are responsible for all the economic evils in the world. As an over 50 BB who started working at the age of 14 delivering papers, washing dishes, painting garages, doing garden work, etc. I never thought my midwestern work ethic would be pegged as the root of all evil. I would apologize to all of the downtrodden students who can't find a job, but since I was there once myself and dealt with it as best I could thru hard work, I really have very little sympathy for this problem. My daughter is 11, facing a lower standard of living perhaps than I have enjoyed. As a parent I am trying to teach her that being self-sufficient, well-educated and self-motivated are her best tools for surviving in the coming years. After that, it is up to her.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:36 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    you people having children you can't even afford to pay off the debts you took out against those same kid's futures. man I will just never understand what your generation was thinking to raise up a 12T debt on top of generation income shifting of SS and then exporting every manufactoring job overseas by raising corporate tax rates. and you guys stood around and allowed it too.

    ok. so anyways, I have now argued both sides of this arguement if you read all my posts. I feel I have stirred up enough BS and will kindly move along with my day, I have stuff to do besides talk about this kind of stuff.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:44 AM, jarrett1953 wrote:

    You seems that this 20-something generation feels they are owed something. Unless you are a rich kid with a trust or likely to receive a big inheritance, you probably ought to get off your derrieres and find a job. You may not get the job you think your education and "status in life" deserve, but America was based on strengths...determination, character, guts, ingenuity, and the opportunity to succeed. BUT it means you have to be have to take the might have to swallow your pride and take a lower level job for a while. Suck it not assume the job is going to fall into your lap.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:53 AM, pompanobeach wrote:

    In response to thisislabor.

    1) I prepaid my daughters college tuition thru money my wife and I SAVED for that purpose.

    2) I have no debt except a small remainder on my home mortgage.

    3) I did not have my first credit card until I was 30, my first new car until I was 32, my first house (which I paid for) until I was 35.

    I have worked for what I have. I paid back my college loans, never borrowed nor do I expect money from my parents. I did not vote for Reagan, Bush, nor Clinton. THink what you will, but tagging Baby Boomers as the root of all evil is incorrect. THe current economic problems will hit me harder than you.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 11:33 AM, tuner2008 wrote:

    You make a huge leap in assuming that these college graduates are not working. Most of the people I knew had to keep their low paying full and part time jobs after college to pay rent. I would guess the unemployment rate of the supposed "wussies" compared to the unemployment rate of the general population is not much different than a similar comparison for other generations. If I'm wrong, show me the facts.

    Also, entrepreneurship is a great suggestion. But, if you take a look around your office this morning, take a quick poll on how many entrepreneurs you are looking at. The vast majority of the population are employees, not entrepeneurs.

    So, the entrepeneurial spirit would probably cover a single digit percentage of the 80 million wussies.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:15 PM, SteveVaughan100 wrote:

    I think every generation has had a rough time of it. I remember the 81 recession - hitting every retailer/outlet on a 6-mile stretch and not being able to find a minimum-wage job (I was still in high school) or going to apply for a night-shift janitorial job while in a community college and competing against middle-aged men in suits.

    There are some challenges right now for college grads - a lot of jobs were off-shored (especially manufacturing) and white-collar jobs are leaving as well now. I think if we were able to make our health insurance more portable, we'd have more entrepreneurs in our society. I think that's the direction we need to start looking in. However, you don't necessarily need a college degree for that either.

    If we fix our health insurance mess - I don't care how it's done - we need to dump ideologies and go with what works - it will help some older people to retire earlier - that would really free up the job market as I know a lot of people who work just for the insurance. It would also provide a little more of a safety net for people wanting to take the big plunge and start their business.

    It's always the best of times and the worst of times, I think if we stick together, we can really make something happen. As the tail-end of the boomers, I can tell you we have our share of wusses and crybabies. Once we get past 'boomer', 'greatest generation', Gennext, etc, we'll realize we have more in common than we think.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:21 PM, biotechmgr wrote:

    Good for you Todd. Even with a college degree I worked my way up from the bottom. My first job was $6.25 per hour. I struggled. I paid my loans. I went into debt to survive then worked to pay it off. I worked hard at whatever I did and created situations. I "made it" in my career but it took many years. I expect others to do the same, no one hands it to you.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 12:51 PM, ET69 wrote:

    If there is any 'Confederacy of Whusses' here its the old farts like the author ! Ya blame the kids for wanting to do as well as their parents did. The fact is the American Empire is in decline and these guys have the whole economic game stacked against them. Its not like the 50's and 60's when a college degree was the road to success.

    Hell my generation essentially lived off the good luck and success of my fathers generation who just happened to be on the winning side of WWII. I cannot tell you how many people I have met in third world countries who have a college degree but there is no work for them and they are working at menial jobs FOR LIFE. In case you think that, " well that's third world countries...but this is America", then I suggest you take a look around! This country looks more and more like the third world everyday. Don't believe it? Get out of your walled burbs and take a drive to east L.A. or southside Chicago or farm towns like Yakima if you got the guts. Whusses? You are the whusses!

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 1:10 PM, phall1221 wrote:


    It was your choice to borrow - pay it back.

    You picked your major - own that.

    Nobody is entiteled to a job - It's a privilege.

    Capitalism is opportunity - not a set entitlements.

    If jobs in your field are scarce - choose another area where jobs exist or create your own without borrowing. Learn a trade like carpentry to get you through the slow periods.

    Quit complaining - I got my Master's without borrowing, never worked for anyone but myself and after 20 years of working have more money than I know what to do with. It comes from hard work and taking responsibility for your entire life.

    And please, when you have kids, raise them to take responsibility for themselves and all the choices they make NO WANKERS !!

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Bootstrapsforall wrote:

    I find it hilarious that someone was paid to write this claptrap, even though the author admits that his co-worker had already done so. To complain about the work ethic of others, while not actually contributing takes a great deal of delusion.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 3:07 PM, yeunganson wrote:

    Guy from Canada again.

    For any country, using university grads for low-paying low skill jobs is a waste of human resources especially when the university/college education itself is partly subsidised by tax-payer's money.

    If you have too many highly educated people with no job, government can just organize them to do some projects - like building a shuttle to mars (for all those no-job engineers). Hire all the excess scientists to find a cure for various cancers - you guys did it for the Manhattan Project (funding a nuke bomb). Why can't you guys do it for something good.

    For those generations before us, you do owe us (for Canada and US). You racked up a huge deficit and you're generation will leave us bills when you pass away. Somehow, we are suppose to magically repay all the debt you guys owe or we would have to pass it to our children.

    If there is actually a heaven and hell, all those contributed to the deficit will have to work until all their bills are paid before allowed to enter heaven.

    I think government can provide meaningful work. Grads in Canada don't make 100k, but start around $30,000 a year doing office work (read meaningful work). If you find no job, live with parents. If you are unfortunate and couldn't find any job for some odd reason for many years after graduation, the government will forgive your student loans.

    We welcome immigrants, especially the rich, liberal and elitists. Gays and Lesbians also very welcome, as gay marriges are legal here.

    Hey. Somebody have to pay for our government-run pension plan for the masses. We definately welcome the rich Chinese (stress the word RICH) and other ethnic groups for immigration, and a few people who are being politically persecuted. Give us half your money, accept our values, pay our taxes and we'll welcome you as proud Canadian.

    We are not powerful nor rich, but come here we'll give you universal health care, a comfy life and a welfare state in return you will need to pay high taxes. You may not be as rich as being in America, but you'll live longer and healthier.

    Oh. If we see Russian tanks rolling from the North, (and somehow didn't sink through the thin ice) and the US isn't there to save us, we'll surrender. We have no army, navy nor aircraft carriers.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 3:10 PM, PauvrePapillon wrote:

    You've got your Marxist President. Now you will just have to suffer through your Marxist economics lesson. You've made your bed. Now you get to lie in it... for a long time.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 3:57 PM, madhat007 wrote:

    wusses for sure...America is ion deep trouble and we must go to the source of the problem..get in the face of our congress and make them pay for their great ideas! and then get in the face of elitist corporate executives....good luck! take cit for example...the mutual funds own a large piece of the equity but do you see any of them questionin g the ceo of the company who is vowing to destropy the shareholders throught reporgaization..this at a time where his proposal will wipe out the government's tarp usual the poversight committee will waqnt to investigate this sometime after the fact and make sure it never happens again...but rest aSSURED GOLDMAN sACHS WILL GET THEIR MONEY!

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 4:04 PM, gojotv wrote:

    Mr. Yeung,

    Please do not claim to speak for Canadians. I can do my own speaking, and that from the perspective of a person who never bargained to live off a system.

    A college degree represents a limited education... A mere, specialized sliver of the great fund of human knowledge. That's all. It is not a job entitlement.

    Two of my brothers completed University, one with a Bachelor's in Computer Science, on with a Master's in Chemistry. One other quit University in his second year. I did not go, because I have a love of learning, and without a specific goal, I knew that I would be spending years in Universtiy treading water. I did my own learning, was testing at University levels in all subjects when I was in grade 9, and decided that that was enough. I was seeking a more complete definition of success than to limit my area of knowledge for recognition printed on a sheepskin.

    So, after nearly twenty years on the job market, how did we fare? The brother with the Computer Science degree earns the most, but saves little. Investments he's made with his friends means that he now has approx. 1/2 million net worth. I gave him a stock tip recently, for which he was grateful. I don't think he knows anything about equities investing.

    The brother with the Master's degree spent years feeling that his education entitled him to a great career, and spent years unemployed while he waited for the knock at the door.

    Same thing for the one who quit University, (always too good to take orders) who lived off my parents until my father's death 6 years ago.

    I earn a good income, in a job which allows me to travel and learn languages, and I manage to stay in the lowest tax bracket by contributing to my RRSP's every year. I started out living thriftily, and took my good spending habits with me when I moved 3000 miles away to get my current job. I spent a lifetime asking not what employers could do for me, but what I could do for my employers. Being female, the group which earns 70% of a man's wage for work of comparable value, means that my strategy probably paid off best. I also have the median net worth for my age, although I'm not married, and never depended on man for anything. I study. I invest. I prosper.

    Meaningful work goes to the people who can make meaning of their work and their lives. I've met numerous boneheads with a University degree. And it behooves all people, after witnessing the fragility of the illusory economic system, and the cupidity of our governments, to realize that a University degree, too, has illusory value. Have goals first, or don't go.

    And don't come telling me that you're entitled to public monies because you won't be able to afford a T.V. in every kid's room. I'd rather spend public monies on roads and healthcare than bratty, entitled kids.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 4:30 PM, QwertyHero wrote:

    Afriad I'm going to have to throw my hat in the ring and endorse joining the military.

    You will literally be choking on the amount and intensity of the "experience" you gain and can intelligently discuss with future employers.

    Not to mention that fact that you will effectively become a member of the largest fraternity in human history - talk about connections!!!

    Caveat - if you are a liberal - please don't join. If you are a member of the "80 million vaginas" - please don't join. You wont like it and we wont like you.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 4:39 PM, karenbe111 wrote:

    Gee, you must be a Republican! After causing the currect economic disaster, Your solution to the current economic disaster brought about by Republican ideology and policy is for college graduates to work at McDonald's for $7/hour?

    I guess this makes sense to Republicans who do the bidding of those who would profit from such a scenario, the ultra rich and corporations.

    So what if America becomes just another third world country, as long as the rich keep getting richer, right? Scumbag!

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 4:53 PM, TominSJ wrote:

    I believe the problem lies in what is expected vs what is reality. I did an unofficial poll with my kids, their friends and several other twenty somethings. I was very suprised that out of the ten I spoke with, only one thought he was entitled to a good job after college.

    The rest, all working jobs and going to school, including my kids (luckily), said they understood that there were no guarantees in life and that though life isn't always fair, they had to make the best of it. These weren't their exact words, but the nine realized that if they wanted something -- they had to earn it!

    Though not a scientific poll, only ten percent thought they were entitled to a job. What this means is that the 80M is really only 8M and because of their entitlement mindset, probably wouldn't be motivated enough to actually work to achieve change. That's a good thing, because of the other ninety percent who are actually working and will be running our country in a few years.

    For the ten percent though, you can always go into politics where your representatives are complaining about the three day work week and that they are so effective that they can complete all of their work during that time. It's just a shame, if they are so effective, that they can't take the time to actually read the bills they are voting on. Of course, they are entitled to their time off and it really is a tough job having to work one Friday this year to vote themselves a raise.

    For all the "Ninety Percenters" good luck, learn the lessons of today and try not to allow the same mistakes to be made in the future. For you "Ten Percenters" please stop whining and get to work. You are giving the "Ninety Percenters" a bad rap.

    BTW: This article has more comments than I have seen in a while.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 4:56 PM, ET69 wrote:

    To QwertyHero,

    I did my time in the army and frankly people like you give the military a bad name. When one reads the stupid nonsense like you have written one has more sympathy for the TALIBAN ! Where is a jihadi suicide bomber when you need one ?

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 5:15 PM, perugino wrote:

    When I read about the "80 Million cry babies' I'm glad I'm 82 years old-- lived through the tough times of the '30s, started working for my own spending money when I was nine years old because when I asked my father for an allowance, he said, "get a job, son and I'll match your money with an allowance"-- no free lunch in his house-- and what kind of a job could a nine-year old get? I carried grocery bags for shoppers and got, maybe, a dime no matter how many blocks I walked, on a good day I made fifty cents-- he taught me self-reliance-- I fought in two wars, came out of the service, finished high school put myself through college, got a "nothing" job in a Fortune 500 hundred company, proved myself and got promoted and advanced in Advertising and Public Relations, held several managerial jobs in other large companies-- started my own advertising agency, raised four children (and they all had to get jobs in high school if they wanted spending money)-- and all the years I worked, I saved and invested in companies with sound fundamentals, put together a portfolio with the help of a trusted financial advisor with whom I've been with for nearly 40 years-- and now I'm living a good life in a small apartment and watching the sun go down most every night while have a glass of wine... hey, kid, ya want the good life, get a friggin' job and prove yourself valuable to the company you work for-- or start your own business-- but get off your whinny butts and put your action where your "poor me" mouth is.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 5:24 PM, foxxx333 wrote:

    "80 million strong." How about "I am individually strong." College does not prepare you for work; it can give you needed skills such as accounting, writing, calculating and persuading. If work seems like work, perhaps you should play. Find something you love to do, get better at doing that something and decide how your love of something can benefit another someone. Take responsibility for your life. Republicans are not to blame, nor are Democrats, for your failure to act. Their policies may impede your actions, but you are the one who needs to act, whatever the circumstances. Our culture is in love with the collective. Collectivists gain identity by association with other collectivists. Try to avoid them. They seldom produce. Live your own life. Get your identity from your own values. This means, choose the values you need to gain to sustain your own life. Pursue those values you have freely chosen. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Sounds a bit like Jefferson. Nothing new. Now, go do it.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 6:10 PM, shmuesn wrote:

    If there's anything I feel sorry for it's our formerly great country being held up to scrutiny by a generation of crybabies who happen to have a college degree. I have served my country and at 75 I'm STILL working in my chosen profession 2 days a

    week, and my wife at 74, still works in hers. We help out with our grandchildren and we don't feel sorry for ourselves, thank you. Yes, we collect social security which we"re grateful considering all the years we"ve worked. We're probably better off than many retired persons our age , some of whom are taking full responsibility for families which have broken down. My advice to those grads who are whimpering now is to grow up and get down to work.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 6:20 PM, freightdog89 wrote:

    If this is the sign of things to come, where everyone is looking for a hand out, Socializm, is not that far off.

    Hard work never hurt anyone, do what you must and get on with it. There is no garantee or warranty on your degree or diploma, or at least I never saw one that implied such. Hard work builds character and things in life change, based on your experiences and how we react to certain challanges. So start building some character and everything will come in time. Forget about instant gratification it's over rated, due your time, you just can't add water and stir and expect the salary you think you deserve.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 6:26 PM, QwertyHero wrote:


    I don't believe you for one second guy. Thanks for hoping im murdered by a jihadist though... Sure that isn't YOU that gives the military a bad name?

    Food for thought...

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 7:36 PM, nothingdoingpal wrote:

    Life gets harder and harder as you grow older. And you get more and more rewards.

    You work hard on your relationship, and have a wonderful wife.

    You play hard with your small children, and they grow up loving you.

    You toil at your job, and you develop skills and make more money.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 7:56 PM, mythshakr wrote:

    As a childless boomer I would have to agree that boomers have made absolutely terrible parents. I made a decision at 18 that I did not want to be a parent because I would be bad at it. What never occurred to me was how bad everyone else was going to be. The coddling and esteem building BS is just unbelievable. When I was 12 my father got a sign and hung it over my door. it read,

    "Around here I have a very responsible position. If anything goes wrong I'm responsible."

    And he meant it. If the roof leaked it was my responsibility. If my mother's roses died it was my responsibility. The point was it was my responsibility to learn how to take care of everything because someday I would have to.

    When I graduated in 1975 with a degree in mechanical engineering I wanted to work in nuclear power. There was nothing available at the time so I spent the next three years working as a maintenance mechanic at an apartment complex and heavy construction as a laborer. When 3-mile Island happened in 1978 the prospects for working in nuclear power vaporized. So, I joined the USAF as a communications officer.

    Now I'm a network engineer. Bottom line? I have never had the opportunity to use my mechanical engineering knowledge and that's OK, well sorta OK, I really enjoy mechanical things better than computers.

    It's my understanding that the majority of college graduates never work in their major field. When I was in college only about 10% of freshman graduated in the area they started. Flexibility and dealing with adversity were as much a part of my college experience as academics. Have boomer professors done away with that too? As much as you may bemoan the degree now it will open doors down the line that are closed to those without college degrees.

    Life is full of twists and turns and those that take advantage of them will do fine in the long run.

    MCD may not provide meaningful experience but going to an interview for something you do want will go better if you tell the interviewers you're doing that rather than sitting around waiting for the "right" thing to come along. Having the MCD manager as a positive reference is a huge difference from no references or personal or academic only references.

    If you watch TV watch "Dirty Jobs" and seek out one of those. I'll betcha those are available. Make the first domino fall.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 9:08 PM, yeunganson wrote:

    It remains true that the older generation over-spent, leaving a pile of debt. The terrible part is the debt doesn't go away after you're gone, it ask us, the 20 somethings, to start paying it back or if we fail, pass it to our children. There ought to be a rule of all generations saying that their generation cannot enter heaven unless they pay off their portion of the national debt.

    It is absolutely a waste of tax-payers money and a society's resources to have highly educated people doing unskilled/minimal skilled jobs. University/ college eduation is partly subsidised by tax-payers through grants.

    Live off parents homes as long as possible. It's cheaper. It's financially wise and it's more enviromentally friendly.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 9:31 PM, yeunganson wrote:

    For those in their late 70s, 80s and 90s, you guys get a pass. You went through World War II and many of your generations did fought. Then there is the Korean war that seems like a victory then but now it looks like a mixed bag as Crazy Kim blows a nuke in North Korea. It is generally believed that your generation sacrificed for the freedom we have today. I will have no problem supporting your medicare.

    You're children's generation ought to get whipped.. They are called the Baby Boomers and the Generation X (Obama's Generation) When they rose in power, their generation came with a desaster in Vietnnam, 2 guilf wars, another one in Afgahastan and overseaing a horrible foreign policy casuing religious terrorism. Financially, there was the huge deficiet and living beyond means. If there is a generation that marks the beginning of the decline of the USA, it would start at the Baby Boomers.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:07 PM, 1phenom wrote:

    This is a crazy plan, but not all graduates are 20 something. My daughter is 36 and received her bachelor's in 2006 after attending several collages over many years and doing the part time dirty work.

    Last Dec. 2008 she received her masters and had been working at an editing job part time for 2 years. Now she cannot make ends meet and is faced with a huge student loan and credit debt.

    She has sent out close to 1,000 resumes and had a few interviews, but no solid response. She is mature, professional, experienced and presents herself very well.

    I help her all I can, but as a retiree on Social Security it's not easy. She has never asked for help and has accomplished everything to this point on her own.

    I feel bad for all the unemployed, particularly those who cannot find work because illegal aliens have taken so many jobs. I know what unemployment is like; try it with a family of four!

    I don't have the answer, but the government is making things worse and worse!

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:21 PM, hischoolgrad wrote:

    I see many college grads who remain as burdens on their parents after graduation. I know many parents struggling to protect their babies from the harsh realities of the world of earning a living. Parents and teachers have trained this generation that “good job” complements and good grades have been relatively easy to collect and they believe they have done a good job with little significant effort or risk and discouragement. This misconception is reinforced as parents struggle emotionally and economically to continue to support this generation in the life style to which they have become accustomed.

    I do not see the graduates recognizing the burden they are to their parents and so I do expect these grads will long be “easy marks” for politicians promising help, and fairness, world peace, and justice for all. The parents may die early and broke from their efforts to help their babies... This probably foretells the direction of our economy as this generation is expected to “take over.”

    My hippie dippy generation did eventually get down and go work but evidently we did not pass on some important reality lessons. Life is tough. Hard work may improve your chances of success but there is no guarantee. Persistence and resilience are the most useful qualities. Fairness is only a gift you can try to give others but it should never be an expectation.

    Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged” gives us a glimpse of the world as the “looters” gain political power. She would not ask for God’s help but I pray that we have not already gone too far towards her foretold destiny.

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:30 PM, Bootstrapsforall wrote:

    The opinion of anyone who takes "Atlas Shrugged" seriously should be ignored.

    Let me guess, you all think you're Galt?

  • Report this Comment On October 07, 2009, at 10:48 PM, 1phenom wrote:

    I just posted a comment about my daughter's situation, but after reading most of the comments I wanted to add more. I am 66 and started mowing lawns, delivering papers and shoveling snow at 13. My first real job was part time at a market stocking shelves for $1.15/hr. After high school I got a production line job 3-11, but went into the service because I was refused a promotion due to my draft status.

    After I got a job as a technician and went to school nights for 6 years for my degree, then later 2 years for my masters. The masters got me nothing.

    My last job which I resigned from earned me $140k, I started my own business3 yrs. ago and lived here in China most of that time. Just as the orders started to come in the economy went south. I have been teaching some English and enjoying it.

    They are desperate for English (and other subjects) teachers, but do not require a certification, just a decent education and the ability to communicate. You can earn 1-2000/mo. (tax free) get a free room and at least one meal. A great experience and a chance to learn about a very interesting culture.

    The lowest tier are the sidewalk sweepers, but they take pride in their work and try not to leave any refuse behind! Yes, McDs and SBUKs can give pride if you work hard. And as someone who has looked at many resumes, a person who has had the EXPERIENCE of working their way through college is a strong plus!

  • Report this Comment On October 08, 2009, at 2:58 AM, MyDonkey wrote:

    This article (like the Alyce Lomax article it copies) is another example of blame-the-victim. Did job-seeking students cause the financial crisis? No. Has their request for money been granted? No. Did the financial/corporate oligarchy cause the financial crisis? Yes. Has their request for money been granted? Yes - to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. The vast majority of taxpayers said NO to bailouts of big banks last fall but the bailouts were rammed through anyway. Why? Because taxpayers don't control the government; the financial/corporate oligarchy does.

    Do we investors feel better now that we've beat up the young and the weak (i.e. students with no jobs and little money)? Are we done thumping our chests with endless "I worked like a dog at crap jobs" stories? As middle class investors, aren't we all hoping to become rich by doing nothing more strenuous than sitting around like slobs waiting for our money to "work for us"? If so, let's stop criticizing the weaklings among us, and instead direct our opposition toward the people who orchestrated the financial crisis from day one: Big Business.

    And while we're at it, let's stop playing the self-abusive word games of Republican/Democrat, Bush/Obama, Capitalist/Socialist etc.; the government and its politicians are controlled by the financial/corporate oligarchy, and there's just one big dollar sign at the top of that pyramid. If Big Business asked me to design a piece of divide-and-conquer propaganda for the masses, I couldn't do a better job than this article - or Alyce's article before it. The people at the top love to see this kind of stuff because it makes it easier for them to steal taxpayer money when the masses are busy fighting among themselves over non-issues such as "entitlement".

    Please, fellow investors, let's stop doing this to ourselves.

  • Report this Comment On October 08, 2009, at 3:15 AM, ET69 wrote:


    Believe it.! Did my training at Fort Lost in the Woods and San Antonio. Had my unit mobilized for the First Iraq War. Knew more about Iraq than anyone in my unit before it was even deployed. Speak a smattering of arabic and fan of Lawrence of Arabia and read all his books...have you? In fact traveled in Muslim countries when I was even younger. When you imply that Liberals have no place in Uncle Sams army it makes me wonder if you were ever in the military. There were every kind of people one can imagine in my unit, mormons,christians,jews , atheists, ex drug dealers, highschool kids from Jersey, Indians, black ghetto kids, musicians, even conservative red name it we had it.

    Your attitude tells me you wouldn't know how to fight the Talaban if your life depended on it. It starts with reading every thing they read..(.like the Koran- I have ...have you?) and then NEVER under estimate your opponent and in order to do that you must respect him ,even if you hate him.

    So believe it...and thats backbone of the army Sgt. First Class ET to you bud.

  • Report this Comment On October 08, 2009, at 12:42 PM, CoachBen wrote:

    I think this short clip ( sums up the 80 million... and a lot of other folks over the years. The problem has been that too many of the "immediate" solutions have put off consequences until much later (e.g. the current deficit that started many decades ago).

  • Report this Comment On October 08, 2009, at 1:01 PM, 80sBaby wrote:

    dear fools,

    i clearly understand the arguments coming from both sides. as a 20 year old college student i am lucky to understand that the job market is getting more and more competitive whether we are in a recession or not. the idea of obtaining a degree and easily finding a job no longer holds true because more and more people are starting to further their education and having a degree is almost always requried nowadays to earn any good money. previous generations had it a little easier then us by simply moving up in the ranks of thier employers without ever being requried to have any degree to land thier job in the first place. i wouldnt say we deserve a bailout but i would say that i dont think anyone does. some of you guys employed buy companies lucky enough to have been bailed out can thank us 20 year olds. we will be paying for you. i am not complaining just being practical and truthful. but to the younger people of my generation, dont see here and complain about what anyone has caused for us, we will have to make best of it and only we can control our future. dont rely on the government to make things easier for us, we are the future .

  • Report this Comment On October 08, 2009, at 2:00 PM, koolmon wrote:

    I understand what the author means. Stop whining,get out there and work for a living, don't expect any free lunches. Make your own luck, nobody owes you anything.

    But, today's graduates are starting their careers with much heavier debt loads than previous generations, even in inflation adjusted dollars.

    I can't help but have empathy for people in their 20's coming out of school with $80,000 to $100,000 worth of student loan debt. It is a lot of pressure to put on anyone.

    Furthermore, these students didn't screw millions of people out of their retirement plans like Wall Street "genius" investment bankers have.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but shouldn't there be some degree of fairness in the system?

  • Report this Comment On October 08, 2009, at 3:03 PM, VolsAccountant wrote:

    I worked hard for 4 years to get a college degree and to be commissioned as an officer in the US Air Force. 3 1/2 years into my career, I was one of several thousand officers laid off in the AF's recent RIF (Reduction in Force). Now I am back in college working on the start of my second "career" at the ripe young age of 29.

    As a student in school now, I think a lot of the blame for the attitudes of recent graduates lies directly on the shoulders of their schools and professors. I am studying accounting with the hopes of landing a decent paying job in the future.

    Every time I am asked by the faculty and staff about my future plans, I get the same negative reaction from all of them when I mention that I am gunning for a staff accounting job paying around 45-50K a year. All they seem to care about is pushing the "big four" accounting firms and touting six figure salaries. Every guest speaker in my classes points out as their first order of business, the starting salary of accounts (almost always 80-90K then over 100K after a few years) and the students just eat it up.

    So in my opinion, business schools are not only providing a most worthless piece of paper, but also expectations (of future salary potential) that they don't have to manage or deal with when students can't find jobs.


  • Report this Comment On October 09, 2009, at 10:46 AM, scootrnc wrote:


    There is far too much bad hair in this country. Get yourself a real career in hair styling, restoration and replacement!

    Don't EVEN think of trying to find work in manufacturing or engineering. There are WAY TOO MANY people with real skills already out of work in those sectors and many more to come given our complete LACK of anything like an industrial policy that spurs development of new products, new markets and new wealth.

    And stop whining! Those delightful Vietnamese nail artists have lots of fun stories to tell!


  • Report this Comment On October 09, 2009, at 11:18 AM, davion13 wrote:


    It's worse than that. My wife is a 1st year hire for one of the big four in a major metropolitan area.

    She was offered 55K starting +5k bonus for passing the CPA exam. This year, new hires were offered 50K.

    No raises, firm wide, this year or last.

  • Report this Comment On October 09, 2009, at 1:24 PM, richobi wrote:

    What ever happened to working hard and earning what you want? Everybody wants to be the CEO. From personel experience, today's generation wants all the gadgets, cars, phones and lifestyle of an older generation without any of the work. Perhaps mommy and daddy impressed ths sense of entitlement into their heads when the brats went into tantrums and gave into what they wanted to shut them up instead of just saying no.

  • Report this Comment On October 09, 2009, at 5:28 PM, ahoythere wrote:

    Your generation won't be as well off as your parents? Sound the alarms this is BIG.You better start worrying about the next generation instead of yourself.

  • Report this Comment On October 09, 2009, at 7:42 PM, skipper5457 wrote:

    My Lord does my Wii generation whine. By boomer dad was a great 'old school' example. We saved for things we purchased, I worked part time in college, didn't wait for dad to pay for it, and yes graduated with little debt a degree with technical skills. I interned for free my senior year, networked my ass off, and magic... received a job offer. Yes, It was not so much money at first, but behold 3 years later I'm a manager. Just bought a house (30% down you subprime smucks), and started an investment portfolio for retirement. Suck it up.. start work early.. work harder than your peers,,,and it will pay off. Buy the way, Foolish GEMS rocks!

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 1:13 AM, robbingusblind wrote:

    Ha! You guys are completely missing out on the fact that the young people organizing this have great careers ahead of them as high-paid Washington lobbyists!

    They're simply doing what every large corporation is doing, trying to make sure their interests are protected on Capitol Hill. You have to tip your hat to them for getting Motley Fool to give them several healthy doses of free advertising. Pretty sharp PR guys :)

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 1:19 AM, jim9100 wrote:

    One of my employees (a very hard working employee, in her twenties) graduated from college last December. At her request I attended a Friday afternoon ceremony the day before commencement recognizing and honoring the graduates from that college of the university. She received a special award for leadership, and in her thank-you statement she said "I want to thank my parents for not being wealthy, because it taught me that I had to work for everything I've accomplished". A few weeks ago, she notified me that she might be leaving my company within the next six months; she plans to move back to her home state to start a business with her brothers.

    Her job within my company is dirty, strenuous, and not high-paying, but it is within the field of her college education, and she recognized three years before graduating that she was going to have to start on the bottom at an entry-level position and "pay her dues", and that the earlier she got started the more ahead she would be by the time she graduated. Yet, there were many times when I was looking to hire and asked her to pass the word on to her classmates that she came back exasperated that none of them were interested because the job was too hard and too dirty for their liking! That's the problem with some of today's college graduates -- they seem to think that their degree entitles them to skip over the entry-level positions and start in the middle.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 3:10 AM, ooogyman wrote:

    Has everyone who has made these overarching generalizations of my generation (and I am 27) actually look at the 80 Million Strong website? Specifically, the organization says its mission is to "propose legislation to create new jobs for the new economy." Where exactly does this organization ask for a handout? I admit that the site lacks specifics, but until there is legislation on the table that actually mentions shuttling taxpayer money to twentysmonthings with no strings attached, characterizing an entire generation as a bunch of whiners and beggars is uncalled for.

    Personally, I don't see any problem with 80 Million Strong's mission. The country is looking for educated worker to rebuild the economy, and young people with college educations and heavy debt load want to work. Why not solve both problems by lobbying Washington to facilitate job creation among young college grads?

    And I juggle two part-time jobs that together pay less than 18k to pay the bills, and my gf (who is 22) is about to graduate basic training from the Air Force, so don't talk to me or my generation about entitlement.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 5:31 AM, psitech wrote:

    There ARE a lot of people my age (mid 20's) that feel that because they have the sheep's skin, they are entitled to a great job and excellent benefits. I quit college when I realized that my degree would pay me less than I was making at my full time job that I was doing to pay my way through school. I was constantly criticized and ribbed by my buddies. I ended up working on an oil rig, chipping paint. Over the last 5 years, I moved up in the company, switched to a specialized service company that is regularly lauded here on the Fool, and I have a very stable career that I love. Oh yeah, still no degree. The difference between my friends and I is that I was willing to get my hands dirty. I am writing this in Nigeria, Port Harcourt, and I have some AMAZING stories to tell my kids.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 5:55 AM, weg915 wrote:

    It's the balance between access, opportunity and hard work. I can see both sides to this argument.

    I do think that young people were sold a bill of goods on college. Just like most people they were encouraged to take on more debt then they should with the promise better paying jobs after graduation. Jobs that were outsourced not for better workers but for lower paid ones.

    I think that this will be changing in the coming years. You will see more and more going to community colleges or taking online courses. I don't know what my financial situation will be when my daughter goes to college (7 years away) but we have talked about the importance of not graduating with debt.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 6:42 AM, wuff3t wrote:

    There seems to be an inherent contradiction in some people's arguments on this board. You can't on the one hand state that the young generation of today have never lived through tough economic times and have been able to get everything they wanted due to easy access to credit, then on the other hand accuse them of being pathetic, whiney and selfish.

    We all become accustomed to whatever seems to be the normal state of affairs. Judge the youth of today in 20 years time - if they're still whining then, some of you may have a point. After all, I'm sure many of the Great Depression generation sat around with their heads in their hands for a while following the stock market crash of 1929, but boy those people didn't half buckle down and work hard to rebuild America....

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 9:33 AM, coachinfool wrote:

    At age 9 I started driving a tractor in an orchard. My legs were too short to reach the pedals so if I needed to use the clutch or the steering brakes I had to stand. I was paid to do the work so that is when I entered the work force. When I was 13, my father took me into the woods, placed a chain saw in the ground and said "Boy, I'm gonna teach you how to be a faller and I want you to know that there are two kinds, good ones and dead ones, and we are fixin' to find out what kind you are". For the next 30 years I used that skill to help pay for my college education and to provide for my family. I worked at least one job while going to college full time and only borrowed money to finish my last semester of college. I have worked any job available to me, some glorious, some mundane but I am now 57 years old and have never been unemployed. 48 years of continuous employment has made it possible for me to help both children pursue their dreams, which required them to get a college education, and to be totally debt free, and have "money" saved for the future.

    What was I given?

    An opportunity.

    A series of mentors to train me.

    A work ethic that was modeled to demonstrate its efficacy.

    I presently have a wonderful job as an 8th grade English teacher and a football and track coach, but I will create time for anyone of the "80 million strong" who would choose to be "given" what they need.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 11:19 AM, JFT45 wrote:

    To Karenbe111,

    Don't just blame the Republicans. The current crises was brought to you by a gloriously bipartison scandal starting with the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act during the Clinton administration. Just follow the money honey and you will see how much $$$ "populists" like Barney Frank (D) and Orrin Hatch (R) have taken from the investment banking industry over the years in the form of "campaign contributions." I am $ure after careful and thoughtful con$ideration of the banking indu$try lobbyi$t$ alway$ above board de$ire$, Mr. Frank$ et al legi$lative vote$ were ca$t in a completely objective and hone$t manner ($arca$m).

    So, as a Democrat (I assume you are one as well) I suggest you take your head out from up your bum, come to grips with political reality and form a few constructive opinions based on facts and not some tired liberal blame the evil opposition mantra. Oh, and please stop referring to people with different opinions as's not nice.

    Respectfully and with best regards,


  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 11:22 AM, ilandgurl wrote:

    I agree that a lot of college grads expect to walk into jobs and lives like those seen on tv. I also agree with the idea that any job that pays is a good job when fresh out of school, but people are not paying attention to the fact that those low paying, entry level, or manual labor jobs that we relied on in our younger days are now being taken by hispanic workers. I used to pass by construction sites and see lots of college age guys working on roofs, and now they are all hispanic. Busboy positions, lawncare jobs, and many other jobs that should go to America's youth are instead going to 30 and 40 year old Mexicans. Whether they are here legally or illegally isn't as important as realizing that the jobs we held while starting out in the 80's and 90's are no longer available to college kids. And before everyone up north jumps on me for making this comment, I'll say now that while I can't speak for the work situation over the entire country, I can most definitely tell you what I SEE while driving in the south. It isn't as easy for college grads to find work as it was 20 years ago. They have competition from a workforce people my age didn't have to contend with. I've heard some of our "Washington leadership" say that immigrants (legal and illegal) take jobs no one else wants to do, but I don't believe that is true. I know a lot of young adults struggling to find work, but competing for jobs against hispanics much older and more experienced than they are. I can understand the frustration of today's young people.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 2:38 PM, 1Douggie wrote:

    I am 55 y.o. own an automotive repair shop and have been going to school my whole life and in real world terms, most lilkey have 3 degrees. I never expected the government to give me anything. I have interviewed techs coming out of the techinical schools with an idea planted in their head that they are going to make 60-80k a year out of the gate... what a shock it must be when they hit the real world. Someone has lied to them- probably to justify thier tuition $$$. For some reason some people, mostly "educated ones", have this entitlement mentality. I frankly don't get it. It must be the liberal teaching in our education system these days...

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 7:11 PM, RevMother wrote:

    I am blessed with two adult children who do not think the world owes them a living. The second one just qualifies for the 80 Million...only she was willing to work at Sbux while looking for a 'real' job. She was also willing to leave that 'real' job to follow her dream and is now an established pro in her field... not Wall Street or anywhere near it. She and her then boyfriend, now husband, had loans, too, and other expenses. Neither thought their parents or their country 'owed' them a job. They found their own. I did not know how lucky I was to have these young people as part of my family until I heard this latest whinefest.

    People who have worked at honest jobs all their lives are homeless and living in their cars. So your dream job isn't available. Take what is and make something of it and yourself.

  • Report this Comment On October 10, 2009, at 9:00 PM, boblea wrote:

    I graduated from college in 1975. I got a job for 2.50 an hour(min wage then was 2.35). Together with four other grads( 2 of whom made the princely sum of 2.65/hour!) ,we shared rent and eventually got better paying jobs. I had a lot to learn, and I think of the great people who "mentored" me along the way. I try to do this now. No, it it not fun to struggle,but usually hard work is rewarded.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 10:39 AM, QuixoteP wrote:

    BMFPitt and following -


    I'm a baby boomer. I completed my undergraduate degree with the equivalent of over 5 years' income in student loan debts. I paid off every one of them.

    It took me a year to find a job in my field as a teacher in social sciences and language, and that paid a grand salary of $6500/yr. During that year of unemployment, I applied for every job I could find, including waitressing, which I hated. I finally found a part time job with a travel agency that paid minimum wage. Throughout my job search, I was continuously faced with the "but you don't have any experience" response. It frustrated me, just as it's probably frustrated every person looking for a foot in the employment door. Face it, employers want employees with a track record for work, not school.

    Luckily I had the option to live at home, and my parents were willing to loan me the money to get a start on a graduate degree during the first year after graduation. I paid that back, too.

    After two years of teaching, "downsizing" hit (wasn't called that at the time) and I was again unemployed. I spent the following year as a substitute teacher and a cashier at Montgomery Wards. The latter paid minimum wage, the former paid less than minimum wage.

    With a masters' degree in hand, I took a job as a purchasing agent for the Navy Medical department as a GS4, and was grateful for the job. Although the job didn't require any education beyond high school, it paid enough that I could finally leave home.

    Eventually I completed my doctoral degree (I paid for it), working full time through out and commuting long distance to help out my parents.

    I do not think I had a hard life. I worked hard, as my parents had worked hard. I took up a career in education (eventually got back to that after the detour to purchasing) knowing it wouldn't pay well, but it was what I wanted to do with my life. It took me the full time to pay off my student loans, and I won't say I paid them cheerfully. I had other uses for the money, believe me, but I chose to go to the school I went to, and those loans made it possible. 'Nuff said.

    Now, what was it we Boomers taught you?

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 11:04 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    that instead of doing what we should do we should live at home for a long periods of time, take out rediculous somes of money to pay for rediculous amounts of schooling, to get jobs that we want and pay to rediculously low for the amount of effort put in?

    that is what I heard you say to me. That you wanted to live your life they way you WANT TO instead of the way you SHOULD. and you try to tell me that it was a lot of work, to do what you want instead of doing what you should.

    that is what I heard you say? - I don't get it, I am suppose to be impressed because your a teacher with a PhD?

    man, it's a good thing I have had to teach tax lectures before, because yeah I sorta am impressed, but then again you sorta brought your own life pain on yourself?

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 11:08 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    so now that I got your attention, teacher-with-a-PhD, you need to get your head strait when you analyze a specific persons opinion and you need to consider where they are coming from.

    you happen to be a very select individual among the boomer croud. statistically how many boomers have a PhD?

    so for an extremely educated person please understand the other side before you comment, because not every boomer did the same thing you did.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 11:12 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    A big problem with the Motley Fool readership board I see as a group whole is they play the blame game all the time.

    Perhaps it is merely a reflection of what is inside me that is playing out on this board, and that is all I am seeing.

    but, I feel as though this whole posting community alot of the times needs to attempt view things through the other persons eyes first, THEN attempt to give some advice that will help them. after that they need to stop doing the "Blame Game" because that game has been going on since kindergarten now and it is getting really old to read 200 comments all blaming someone else and never acknowledging or advising people.

    getting old people.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 11:23 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    you know if people are being lazy, they will figure it out with good time. just give them some advice, and then watch they do with it.

    if you aren't emotionally strong enough or willing to empathize with someone then DONT DO IT. but people dont play blame game, and for gods sakes dont whine either about how hard it is to find a job. we all know this.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 12:44 PM, FOOLTOCROSS wrote:

    the cia and irs are also hiring, please get off your high horse.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 3:13 PM, WhiskyTFoxtrot wrote:

    The problems that the wusses are whining about are the reason that we had to build walls at our borders to keep U.S. citizens from escaping. No. wait; I may have that backwards.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 3:50 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    fooltocross - I might have perhaps lost my temper. I would like to say I'm sorry but I'm not sure I am.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 4:21 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    the IRS is a really good idea, ty.. I'm probably a year from finish my EA.

    Thanx for the encouragement.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 4:25 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    yep, that whole others are your self-removed thing again, huh?

    wth... if only I could see that before I go off. Yeah, I might feel bad now about that... sorry fool board that lacking in tact.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 4:32 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    wth - for what it's worth, all the illegals have been leaving because of low employment here in Arizona.

    you on some terms don't have that backwards.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Gorm wrote:

    Reality is life is all about expectations!

    Just look at our population! Whose offspring are the most successful? Poverty, overall, begets poverty, etc.

    SO, when graduates EXPECT better opportunity, it is because they have been conditioned that "IF" they follow the rules and accomplish the certificates / diplomas, etc they WILL be rewarded for their efforts.

    SO, if you take this same group, throw out the rules, the expectations, etc and tell them they have been equipped with an education so go out and earn a living they are left to their devices to make it happen. That is a far different scenario when you have conditioned them to certain expectations.

    Yes, things will be DIFFERENT going forward!!

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Gorm wrote:

    Reality is life is all about expectations!

    Just look at our population! Whose offspring are the most successful? Poverty, overall, begets poverty, etc.

    SO, when graduates EXPECT better opportunity, it is because they have been conditioned that "IF" they follow the rules and accomplish the certificates / diplomas, etc they WILL be rewarded for their efforts.

    SO, if you take this same group, throw out the rules, the expectations, etc and tell them they have been equipped with an education so go out and earn a living they are left to their devices to make it happen. That is a far different scenario when you have conditioned them to certain expectations.

    Yes, things will be DIFFERENT going forward!!

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 6:52 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    of course if one has an EA they can just represent clients before the IRS courts instead. probably a whole lot more money that way...

    but that is scales of labor away for me at the moment I think. not today's goal, that is for sure. but, it is an option.

    and what do we know about options? options are cool.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 7:22 PM, thisislabor wrote:

    yep and from there you are at a should versus want conversation...

    thankx grom. I had the perspective a year ago today and lost it somewhere along the line.

  • Report this Comment On October 11, 2009, at 7:26 PM, BMFPitt wrote:

    QuixoteP -

    Your generation as a whole taught us pretty much the opposite of everything you just typed. Do you really believe otherwise?

  • Report this Comment On October 12, 2009, at 11:01 AM, carolsmithhsa wrote:

    I read this entire thread with great interest. My summary advice instead of any whining to government is to join the military or start your own business. Do not say you have no money to start your own business. Even a dog-walking business or pet-sitting business allows you to be your own boss with little to no investment. And pay can be pretty good. In the meantime, you can look for positions in your field. Going to the government for any form of bailout without any personal inititave otehr than applying for classic jobs is unbelievable.

    When I lost my job due to downsizing in my industry 8 years ago after the dot-com bust, I started my own consulting business. I have never looked back and expect no boo-hoo help form the government.


  • Report this Comment On October 12, 2009, at 6:13 PM, guiron wrote:

    "As for college expenses, well join the military, but then again that would require dedication, service to country, and god forbid. Hard work…..

    "Well I should apologies... I just realized my tone of cynicism. Just because I served 20yrs in the Air Force"

    So, what you're saying to everyone else is: Don't look for the government to help you, even though the government took care of me at taxpayer's expense.

    Yeah, you worked, but we paid your salary as well as your benefits. You're welcome.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:02 AM, andros153 wrote:

    80 million? The US population, by official statistics

    is only 300 million. So roughly one third of the

    population is applying for "ruling class" status?

    More than half (about two thirds) of college students,

    are female, and how many graduates are female?

    Females work at fast-food places, and now they

    want even more "office work" positions? Most of

    the middle management, or office worker population,

    is female. Just the top positions, such as CEO, are

    held by males, as if to disguise the fact that most

    office workers are female. I have concluded that

    females do not LOVE males, their sons, their

    brothers, their fathers, etc. But that they USE

    males. But given that most males use profanity,

    can barely speak, read, or write, intelligibly, can

    you blame them? Who is not "lazy"? Some gather

    together to seek economic advantage over others,

    they play "team sports" (are "racists"), and so why

    should it surprise anybody that females should do

    the same? If somebody has to be on top, who would

    you it rather be, for the males appear to be bereft of

    wisdom, caring, or nurture. Rather they would drink

    alcoholic beverages and watch mindless sports

    spectacles, not giving a moment to consider them,

    ex-atheletes, lying somewhere suffering from spinal

    chord injuries. God hates football. But I imagine he

    loves them who would rather pick up a book to read

    than an M-16. Beware of Jezebels and Goliaths,

    for they now refer to sexuality as if it were a skin

    colour, and skin colour as if it were a team uniform.

    Behaviour is gender specific. Are you "A Mary Can"

    or are you anti-American? Let, means, allow, which

    implies self-will. Let females build houses, schools,

    and hospitals for males, especially the boys, to live

    in. Love is only love, if it is freely given, rather than

    coerced, as if by incentives (paychecks) or by

    intimidation (threats of incarceration). Where is the

    nearest "women's only" prison, given that 95% of

    the prison population is male?

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:12 AM, andros153 wrote:

    A couple of quotes:

    The opposite of war isn't peace...It's creation.

    It doesn't matter if we're talking about schools,

    hospitals, and homes...or relationships...once

    the fighting stops the rebuilding must, begin,

    whether we're ready or not.

    - Wonder Woman, from Wonder Woman,

    Issue #13, 2007

    Humans are all about filling everything, you work

    hard to fill your wallet to buy stuff to fill your house..

    or in my case, a very small apartment. You need

    a car to get to work to fill your wallet, and then you

    need to fill your car...If you work hard, you can

    afford to get a bigger car to take you to work...

    And you can work more to afford to get a bigger

    house to fill with more stuff. I thought being human

    would be easy...I may have been wrong.

    - Wonder Woman,

    Wonder Woman Issue #6, 07

    Literacy is important. During riots, people seem

    to avoid newsstands, bookstores, and libraries,

    choosing to loot liquor stores instead.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:21 AM, weg915 wrote:

    Everybody is a wuss sometimes.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:23 AM, andros153 wrote:

    It's "the world".

    The words of Shakespeare:

    A plague hath both your houses, they have made

    worm's meat of me.

    - One of Romeo's friends, after he has been stabbed,

    and lies bleeding.

    Was Shakespeare referring to 'Liberals versus

    Conservatives', 'Protestants versus Catholics',

    'Males versus Females', 'Aliens versus Predators'

    (no matter who wins, we lose), or simply, the

    Montagues versus the Capulets?

    What is the difference between capitalism and

    communism? It seems to me that communism

    is just a conspiracy to replace one ruling class

    with another. But which "party" will best represent

    your economic interests? Which "party" will not

    send you to work in a coal mine in the face of an

    energy crisis? Alimony or Prison? Too bad that

    you do not have a legal right to be homeless.

    Because if you have to choose the lessor of two

    evils, you should refuse both.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:29 AM, andros153 wrote:

    Of course, if a man will not help somebody he

    hates, but who needs his help, will the government

    not step in and do the right thing? Is that not

    how segregation in the South ended? By government

    intervention, when many refused to do the right thing?

    Not everybody is able to hold a power tool,

    such as a buzz saw, without fainting. Should

    they be denied housing, food, or clothing?

    A legal right is not the same concept as a moral

    right. It is a good idea not to rely on government

    to spell out legal responsibilities. Teddy Roosevelt

    once referred to the American Presidency as a

    "bully pulpit". What sermon are you hearing these


  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:37 AM, andros153 wrote:

    The love OF money IS the ROOT of ALL evil.

    OF means FROM, or BELONGING TO.

    What is the "love of money" if not, Shopping?

    "What can I get with this..." Wilst thou trust in

    earthly riches?

    A sparrow IS a bird, but a bird may not be a sparrow.

    Shopping may not be the love of money, but the love

    of money is shopping.

    Beware of NEEDS versus WANTS.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:41 AM, andros153 wrote:

    The Word of God is Truth:

    The love OF money IS the ROOT of ALL evil.

    The word is OF and not FOR...

    OF means FROM, or BELONGING TO.

    "What can I get with this..."?

    The love of money is SHOPPING, but

    shopping may not be the love of money.

    A sparrow IS a bird, but a bird may not be a sparrow.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 6:04 AM, andros153 wrote:

    What is a "legal responsibility"? That is a strange

    ("odd") phrase. Legality and morality ought to

    coincide, but oft do not. By morality, I refer to

    the commandments of God (that is the one true

    God, who is the God of Israel). And by legality,

    I refer to the ordinances (laws) of man.

    Laws, by definition, must reflect some value

    system, seeing as how they are not written

    "willy nilly". But which value system do they

    reflect? Do not confuse a legal right with a moral

    right, as in "you are wrong, it is not right to put

    milk and meet upon the table together, for that

    is not kosher".

    Enforcements are first legislated, before legislation

    is enforced. And that is called, the rule of law.

    It's not them, you see, but it is the written law,

    that compels them to see the action enforced.

    And so, "they" might install a draft,a legislation

    saying that males of a certain age,

    chosen by a lottery system, will go to "serve",

    will kill "the enemy, or enemies", whereas females

    will have the option of not "seeing combat". And

    then politicians, or pastors, or both, might speak of

    "legal responsibilities".

    Legal rights versus moral rights: "Hell no, I won't go"

    versus "you will go, for it is the law of the land".

    But from the perspective of the person who feels

    the cops are "molesting" him, or her, there are no

    legal responsibilities, just "the law" and "they who

    enforce the law". You have to do this, is what is

    called a "legal responsibility" versus you can do

    this which is called a "legal right", but are these

    legal responsibilities or legal rights, moral?

    Slavery is not to be confused with servitude.

    A slave is a servant, but a servant is not a slave.

    For a servant is able to say, No, that is not a good

    plan. Be a servant of righteousness.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 6:18 AM, amanahana wrote:

    As a parent of someone from this generation, my child has been able to obtain a dual degree (graduating this semester), while working and saving almost $30K. She attended school without student loans.

    So to claim that student loans are a necessity for an "80 Million Strong" member to attend college is not true. It is all about the choices you make in life. Attend a more expensive university or a less expensive one? Work when attending college or take out student loans? Live at home while attending school or go to an out-of-state university?

    You can still attend college loan-free. And the job challenges are faced by all ages, not just new college grads.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 6:25 AM, andros153 wrote:

    Pierre Elliot Trudeau, the former Prime Minister

    of Canada once said:

    I, for one, will be convinced that the Canada we

    know and love will be gone forever. But, then,

    Thucydides wrote that Themistocles' greatness

    lay in the fact that he realized Athens was not

    immortal. I think we have to realize that Canada

    is not immortal; but, if it is going to go, let it go

    with a bang rather than a whimper.

    - Testifying before the Canadian Senate in

    opposition to the Meech Lake Accord


    It would seem that the USA is mortal, and that

    Americans are content to allow the US to go with

    a whimper, for the illiteracy rate is quite high in the

    US, and the great orators such as Lincoln, or

    Kennedy, are now nowhere to be found, if the

    message boards are any indication. For the

    message boards seem to speak of a "score board

    mentality", one of, Here is the team I play for, and

    the rest of you can just "go to hell". How are

    comments like that supposed to help?

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 6:27 AM, andros153 wrote:

    Team Jesus. We rule.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 10:14 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    so what your saying is: it is ok to want more money, but it is not ok to fall in love with all the things it buys me?

    not really clear on that of and for thing, though I have pondered it before.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 10:42 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    I guess that love of money thing is more like it is OK to fall in love with my job, or what I want to do - but doing it just for the money because I want "more", and "just" more money, is NOT ok?

    anyways, it was refreshing to see something positive andros, thank you.

    so if the word is of and not FOR, then that means I don't have to have an internal moral conflict with my self for actually enjoying my Finance and Investing classes at ASU? because quite frankly I love learning about it some times - it is totally neat to see. I just don't know how driven I am to go out and use that knowledge.

    of ... as in meaning belonging to. if the love is belonging to the money, or if i am just doing it for the paycheck, it is not a healthy process then, huh?

    correct me if I am wrong on that andros153?

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 11:25 AM, andros153 wrote:

    When you think, or say, "what can I get with this

    quarter", that is the love of money. But when you

    think, or say, I want a soda-pop, and you see one

    in a coin-operated machine, or a store, you might

    then think, or ask, How will I get that soda pop?

    Using a crow-bar, or a quarter? For I thirst

    exceedingly. Shopping then, is not necessarily the

    love of money. As to what you want, beware of the

    lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride

    of life. Jesus said, Your father in heaven knows

    what things you have need of, before you ask him:

    see, Matthew 6, KJV...As for what is money?:

    Consider how they asked him if it was lawful for

    them to pay taxes to cesar, or not: A penny is

    a piece of metal with engravings upon it. Jesus

    said, Render unto cesar those things that are

    cesar's, and unto God those things that are God's.

    He was not referring to rendering (handing over)

    coins, in the form of taxation policies, but rendering

    as in drawings, as in, Whose picture (engravings)

    and words (superscription) is upon what you call

    a "penny"? Everything under Heaven, belongs to

    Him, including all the copper, silver, and other

    metals found beneath the earth, or above the earth.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 11:30 AM, andros153 wrote:

    I actually got the soda pop story from a Barbara

    Walters interview with Tom Cruise. He was

    saying that when he was a kid, he was really

    thirsty sitting on a sidewalk, and after seeing

    a soda pop machine, he prayed, and asked that

    he might have a quarter to buy that can of soda

    pop with. And behold, a woman walked out of an

    alley, came up to him, and without saying a word,

    placed a quarter in the palm of his hand, and walked

    away...From hence cometh wisdom?

    See, Proverbs 8, KJV.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 11:42 AM, andros153 wrote:

    As for falling in love with the things you purchase

    with money: Well, that sounds like gambling,

    not that I think gambling is immoral. For who does

    not gamble when he opens a carton of milk, or

    crosses the street, or makes a purchase over the

    internet, or at a used car lot? Neither is it a sin to

    drink strong drink, such as whisky. Gambling and

    drinking as passions are much maligned, I think.

    Just don't be stupid, and drink too much, or

    decide to tempt the Lord your God, by jumping off

    of a high place thinking you will surely land safely.

    And certainly do not trust in earthly riches (money)

    by "putting all your eggs in one basket" or thinking

    your retirement plan is the answer to all your future

    woes, or is even secure, will be there for you in

    your old age. Do not trust in riches. Trust in the

    Lord your God. You can own things in a legal sense,

    without getting attached to them. Some feel pain,

    when their car is dented, as if it is an appendage:

    That is a sign that they are attached to an earthly

    object, that is not supposed to be a part of their

    physical body. Focus not on the temporal, for these

    things upon the earth shall surely pass away, but

    keep your focus on the eternal: It is a question of

    priority. Faith, as many have said, is about believing

    in that which you cannot see. You also need love.

    What do you love? How do you love? God is love.

    God is a spirit. Love is a feeling which may, or may

    not, express itself as an action. To love another is

    two things, an obligation, and some thing freely

    given, with no expectation of some thing in return,

    but you may hope to receive. A hope and an

    expectation (a sure thing) are two different concepts.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 11:45 AM, andros153 wrote:

    OK, three things: a feeling, an obligation, and per

    chance, a hope.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Theonay wrote:

    Hmm...I can't say I completely disagree, but I can't say I'm all for this article either. You haven't sold us out, dude, but I think you're being a little unrealistic. I'll explain:

    For the most part, our generation has lost the plot as far as what it takes to be hard-working; starting off low and rising gradually. People really do expect to come out of school and live some dream lifestyle in some massive apartment here in NYC making 200k +. I remember a lot of friends back at school ('sup, Morehouse) who constantly talked about being BMW's right out of school, trying constantly to live up to this idea of wealth and success that is not only unsustainable, but is quite frankly inconsistent with reality.

    But our set isn't all to blame for it. For one...the reason we can't surpass the generation above us is because that generation has laid mines all over the path behind them, making it impossible to follow. The generation above us is the generation of rogue hedge-fund managers, 50-something oil-execs, overpaid CEO's...a legion of wannabe millionaires who over-spent on credit and taught us that nothing mattered but getting rich, turning a profit as quickly as possible regardless of the cost in integrity, work ethic, or mental evolution. I'm going to throw college-dropout tech billionaires and record label execs who pay entertainers millions to flaunt easy-come-easy-go riches and a money-cash-hoes lifestyle.

    When they weren't busy setting bad examples, our parents were busy creating fake wealth through bubbles of various sorts.

    At which point in our orientation were we to learn that hard work is admirable and leads to success? We've learned to emulate Gordon Gekko over Joe the Plumber. Actually, we mock Joe the Plumber for not having a house as big or a car as fast. And quite frankly, McDonalds won't cut it for those Lexus car payments.

    Now..I'm not saying we should be lazy bums, but I understand where the mentality comes from. Its hopelessness. A belief that good old-fashioned can-do is just that...old fashioned.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 3:21 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Wall Street was a good movie, save for the

    profanity, and the bizarre sexual appetites...

    Remember the Lobster scene in Splash?...

    Poor girl...Anyway, remember who ended up

    buying Blue Star? It was the English anti-Gekko,

    somebody who did not wish to buy and sell at a

    profit, but a repentant Gekko who wanted to hang

    on to a company and manage it, employing people

    in the process....People, employees, are sometimes

    referred to as labour capital, like duracell batteries...

    So long as their are enough slaves, and oil-based

    machines to create products, some will still be able

    to enjoy a Lexus and deluxe burgers. Especially

    if they do not question where the meat comes from.

    Democracy is one person, one vote. How many

    arab males have been put to death in the last five

    years alone? What to do with the surplus labour

    population?, was the question Marx said capitalists

    societies deal with. And others have said that the

    primary question facing civlization is, What to do

    with the males? Shakespeare wrote: "A plague

    hath both your houses, they have made worm's

    meat of me". Whether it be the Protestant Work

    Ethic, or the Catholics idolizing carpentry, "hard

    work" (slavery, self-abuse) has become a god for

    some. What is a "lazy bum", a philosopher?

    Now, money, is a virtual concept: Separate the

    economy into two parts, Virtual and Real, to see

    who does what for who. But the question, why,

    is not so easy to discern. Is money a permission

    slip to serve another? What motivates a nurse to

    help tie somebody's shoelaces? A need (love,

    desire) for a paycheck, or love, yea, even for an

    enemy, or complete stranger? To love your enemies

    does not mean to have feelings for them, but to

    "return fire with water", to pity them, for to love

    another is to want that person to be holy. In the

    movie, Wall Street, did Bud Fox love her? Did she

    love him? Or did they just use each other? See

    each other as furniture, or fashion accessory?

    Neither a victim, nor a victimizer be. To say that

    America will be better if most become as robots,

    unselfish and hard-working, is flawed logic, given

    the enormous wealth (in the form of roads and

    houses) that have already been constructed.

    Money is a legal claim upon products and

    resources, and services, in an economy. And some

    might yet refuse you service because they do not

    like your skin colour, or your gender, or your

    "values". The Taliban is more hated than men who

    would lie down with mankind as with womankind,

    yet I've never met a Taliban person, I think. Hate,

    means to avoid, as in, "don't touch", as in, "I hate

    brocolli". But hatred is when you pick up a plate

    and throw it at somebody, or a wall. Hate without

    hatred. Wages and work do not correlate well with

    each other, if you are measuring work in terms of

    calories, sweat, bloodshed, or tears. Frankly, I

    would rather work at a McDonald's than in a coal

    mine. Credit cards, help keep "the machine" going.

    It's an old story, about a hamster on a treadmill,

    trying to get off.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 3:32 PM, andros153 wrote:

    In Cuba, you are allowed to study what you like,

    but then you end up working, being assigned by

    the government based upon what you studied.

    So that, if you study electrical engineering and

    then say you want to be an actress, the government

    might say no. Terry Hatcher, would she have done

    well in a Communist America? Apparently she has

    a degree in electrical engineering. But then, she

    may have lied on her resume in order to appeal

    to science fiction fans when she did that awful TV

    show, Lois and Clark. The first episode was OK, but

    then it just went downhill from there.

    Consider a business card: The feel of the paper

    (high quality, watermark?), the font of the letters

    (attractive?) and the title upon it, designating class

    status (lawyer, doctor, CEO, sales associate, etc.)

    Now consider, The lust of the flesh, the lust of the

    eyes, and the Pride of Life. See, 1 John 2:15-16,

    KJV. Shakespeare wrote: "All the world's a stage,

    and the men and women, merely players".

    Why do some mock, and others envy, Joe the


  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 3:38 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Love your enemies; Love not the world.

    A paradox, n'est pas? Well, try leaning.

    The word is 'love not', and the word is not

    'hate'. For to hate the world, you would have

    to leave it. As some have said, The Church

    is in the world, but the Church is not of the


    Michael Jordan, did he not lead by example?

    Or was leadership thrust upon him, simply

    because he scored the most points?

    Any Given Sunday, also, a good movie,

    save for the profanity, and the throwing up.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 4:54 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Reading Lucylee's comments, Is the GI Bill still

    in effect? It helped transform America at that

    close of WW2, helped create the prosperity of

    the 1950s. But as Orwell noted in his book, 1984,

    when everybody has a house, a car, and a fridge

    full of food, class distinctions tend to disappear,

    and with that, government. Although, I disagree

    with his thesis. In the Star Trek universe, there

    is no class distinctions aside from ability, and the

    quest is not for money, or earthly treasure such

    as a 69 Ford Mustang, but self-improvement. A

    desire to be "the best" you can and "simply the

    best": Top Gun, if you will, the pursuit of

    excellence. "You don't own this plane, the

    taxpayers do...You're writing cheques your body

    can't cash". Wonder Woman, and her Invisible

    Jet: How attached are they to each other?

    Did you know that when Ronald Reagan was born,

    the model T was just coming off the assembly line,

    and America was predominantly a horse and buggy


    "Tony Stark, what are you building?"...A little here,

    and a little there, can he put it all together without

    his enemies noticing?...The interesting thing about

    that movie, is that Tony was neither a specialist,

    or a generalist (a "jack of all trades, and a master

    of none") but he was good at everything, from

    welding to computer programming to theoretical

    physics...Lousy taste in music though, but that is

    a personal opinion...You cannot choose your own

    allergy, or kryptonite, if you will. Pain is objective,

    whereas pleasure is subjective. What do you

    choose to delight in? A godly man delights in

    keeping the commandments of God. Whereas

    a lessor man is like, well it is written, Thou shalt

    not covet, so, why do I feel envy? Desire

    spiritual things, like dvds, music, and perhaps a

    concordance. Water and wine: Necessities

    versus luxuries: Desires versus Needs.

    The point is, can you do it all without help? Can

    you be a Tony Stark? Do you know how to weld,

    as well as knowing how to program a computer,

    know about rocket fuel formulas, etc., are you a

    super genius, a master of all trades, not needing

    help? Males are taught to be competitive, and

    hence, there are all these "trade secrets", which

    are not shared with other males for competitive

    reasons. For if a male is more useful than another,

    will he not be treated better by females who desire

    carnal things, earthly treasure? Trade Secrets,

    or Intellectual Property Rights, lead to monopolistic

    pricing schemes, and so there is that economic

    incentive too. In the Book of Acts, it is written,

    Ye cannot purchase the gift of God with money.

    Where is the male who has not attempted to

    purchase a woman (or a woman's affections, or

    love) without money? For she was created for

    him, and not him for her. Wherefore the man feels

    a need for the woman he desires, and she might

    want him, if he is useful. A want can become an

    addiction. It is not written, wives LOVE your

    husbands, but it is written, husbands LOVE your

    wives, and we, the Church, are to love Him who

    first loved us.

    Without an understanding of gender relations, how

    can you hope to understand the economy, or the

    political sphere? Madonna's song, 'Justify My Love',

    says a lot.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:20 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Jesus fed five thousand with five loaves and two

    fish. And so why pretend that resources are

    finite, save to help people fast, and focus on

    more important stuff than hedonistic pleasure?

    Some things are more important than what has

    been called "the economy".

    Your own SALVATION should be your top priority.

    Physician, heal thyself.

    Jesus did NOT say, Do unto others what you

    would have them do unto you, according to the

    KJV BIble. But what he said was, And as ye

    would that men SHOULD do to you, do

    ye also likewise to them. See, Luke 6:31, KJV.

    It is good to save life. And so perhaps all the

    "bad new" people are hearing these days, is

    part of a "shock and awe" campaign designed to

    reach them who refuse to learn of, seek after,

    God and his righteousness?

    Think about yourself first, or at the same time,

    otherwise you will become as a robot attempting

    to please others while wondering "Where's my

    robot?" Did not Jesus say that he came to

    serve all? Can a robot program itself? You

    need good code. Rather than cliches,

    platitudes, and political slogans, which

    people relate to only on an emotional level, as

    if cheering for a "home team".

    I think it was Socrates who wrote an editorial that

    went something like this, "To day the youth have

    no respect for the elderly..." I read that in a grade 7

    history textbook. I wish I had written it down and

    had it framed. Because how often have I heard

    that Socrates editorial, from the mouths of

    politicians and call-in radio guests, is like a really

    large number.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 5:36 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing.

    Only True Believers are able to say that

    Jesus is THE Lord: "Jesus Christ is Lord".

    See, Luke 2:11; 1 Corinthians 12:1-3, KJV.

    Pronunciation matters: The letter 't' in 'Christ'

    is not a "silent letter" as it is in 'castle'.

    Money, is like "silver bullets", and help

    distract the wolves, while you pump gas,

    or walk out of a bookstore with a book.

    And ironically, that is what the wolves want.

    In fact, there is a beer called 'Silver Bullet' too.

    Because not everybody will do something

    for you, for free. And if you do not pay

    your taxes, you might end up in prison.

    And that is why Christians pay taxes.

    For it is a legal ordinance, and enforcements

    are first legislated (written down) before they

    are enforced. 'Schindler's List' another good

    movie...Oh and don't believe that "Jewish

    Conspiracy" stuff: 'The Learned Protocols'

    was written in code. 'The Jews' are the females,

    and the males are 'the gentiles'. If you change

    the masculine-sounding word 'Protocols' to the

    feminine-sounding word 'Etiquette' this may be

    easier to see.

    Why you should pay taxes:

    See, Matthew 17:24-27, KJV.

    A final word about the US economy: If you really

    care, read the writings of Warren Buffett, and you

    will have a really good understanding of what is

    called "capitalism". To wit, Buffett has called

    financial derivatives the financial equivalent of

    nuclear weapons aimed against American

    capitalism, or something like that.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 6:19 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Now, with respect to the World Economy: The Conspiracy is

    Femdom. 'The Learned Protocols' is actually 'The Learned

    Etiquette of the Matrons of Femdom'. The "Jews" are the

    females, and the "gentiles" are the males. "The gentiles are

    bemused with liquor and sports..."

    A cynic might say, You are just trying to take out the feminazis

    and the antisemites with one stone. Well, to that I would reply,

    have you a better plan? For it is good to save life, and the angels

    are sent to separate the wheat from the chaff. The alternative to

    ignoring reality can be summed up in this video posted on 'You


    'Supreme excellence in war is to win without fighting'.

    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War.

    Also, what I write is true. Babylon yet is, and has yet to fall.

    'The Learned Protocols' is not a Jewish Conspiracy, but a

    satanic one. "They" hate the Israel of God, his elect, and desire

    others to blaspheme. "They" through this document have

    attempted to make war against they who worship the God of Israel,

    by promoting gender war, and antisemitism, or perhaps, this document

    was conceived to enlighten some. For how can you fight an enemy

    if you do not know the enemy exists? What was called RED is now

    being called GREEN. Imagine if only HIV-infected males needed pills

    in order to stay alive? What would you call the new currency? Money,

    or medicine? See, Revelation 17, KJV.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 9:49 PM, andros153 wrote:

    The Silver Bullet: Do you see incentives,

    or intimidation? "I'm Mr. Money Bags, do as I say"

    or "Yes, I will give you this useless silver if you

    will let me leave here with the merchandise without

    you calling the cops, OK?" Surprisingly, cashiers

    are willing to go along, accepting what they call cash,

    in exchange for what you consider to be truly

    valuable. A fair trade? Or are you taking advantage

    of the cashier when you walk out with Star Wars,

    The Movie Edition, #1, Marvel Comics? The fools.

    They know not what they gave away. Robert

    Redford once did this movie called, The Rock,

    where they rob a bank by hypnotizing one of the


    Put difference between the lambs, the wolves,

    and the lambs who might turn into wolves (the

    werewolves) as in, "He's had one too many".

    A bullet, a crowbar, or cash, how would you break

    a friend out of jail? The point is, focus on what you

    want, before asking, how will I get this? For some

    seem to think that all their problems will go away

    if they win the lottery. Do they not trust in riches,

    who say such things, who believe that shopping

    (having options) is paradise, and not UNREST?

    What won't some do for money?

    True, or false, or ?: Some will do anything for


    What won't some do for love?

    Man is to worship and serve the Creator

    MORE THAN the creature.

  • Report this Comment On October 13, 2009, at 10:48 PM, andros153 wrote:

    Why do we not see a Just Society, in Canada,

    the US, or in Judea? The Holy Land is not called

    Israel, in the Bible, KJV. (Israel is a person, and

    a people).

    Did Jesus come to serve all? No, not quite. He

    is the Holy Lamb of God who comes to take away

    the sin of the world. See, John 3:16, KJV. The word

    'so' means 'in this manner' and is not to be confused

    with the word 'soo'. There is difference between

    them who are his (the Church) and they who are

    not his (the World). Jesus said, Whosoever does

    the will of God, THE SAME is my brother, my sister,

    and my mother. He makes himself known to them

    who love him: See, John 14:21, KJV. Clearly, you

    do not love everybody with the same passionate

    intensity, do you? See, Luke 12:37, KJV.

    'Lord', 'God', 'man', and 'Christ', are four different

    concepts (meanings). Jesus Christ is the Incarnate

    Word. See, John 1:1; John 1:14, KJV. Jesus is

    the Christ, the Son of God. God is Love. See,

    John 10:30, KJV. God has made his Son Jesus

    both Lord and Christ. See, Hebrews 2:7-9, KJV.

    The economy is like a stage set, a play. And you

    can easily get lost in that play, as if on a "holo

    deck", like the kind on Star Trek TV shows. A

    robot can be created to paint a house, or tie a

    person's shoelaces, in theory, but what motivates

    a robot? In the movie, 'iRobot' Detective Spooner

    asks the robot, Can a robot compose a symphony?

    To which the robot replies, Can you? Who has

    been made perfect in love?

    Economic issues will resolve themselves as they

    have resolved themselves for centuries. When

    the money failed in the land, and there was a

    famine, Joseph and the people of Israel found

    themselves away from the Egyptians dwelling in

    a land called Goshen. They trusted in the Lord

    their God, and not in earthly riches.

  • Report this Comment On October 14, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Stasch59 wrote:

    If you have huge college loans, how much of that was for room and board because you HAD to go away to college.

    Not everyone can do this, but going locally, even to a Jr. College the first couple years is a good idea. Don't tell me English 1 at a Jr. College is not equivalent to English 1 at the State University with 600 students in your class and a video of your professor showing a taped lesson.

    All this while you are paying upwards of $18,000 to $20,000 per year, 2/3's of which is R&B?

    Not smart.

  • Report this Comment On October 14, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Stasch59 wrote:

    Be willing to start at entry level and be happy to get it. Show yourself responsible and with initiative and you will move up.

    My daughter spent 4.5 years to obtain a major and minor at a state university satellite college of about 7,000 students in a nearby mid-sized city, living with us to save R&B. With tax credits, some state credits, working part time, watching expenses, and a little help from us to buy a few books here and there, she finished with about $13,000 in student loans total, which is very managable.

    Then she took an entry level job for $9.00 in a multi- location organization. The job is not really in her area of study but she is dealing with the customer base all day long and gaining invaluable experience. She is going to try and move in the direction of her degree within the company as opportunities arise.

    I'm confident she will be able to do that as she has garnered their attention with being self starting, motivated and showing an ability to learn and work hard to get the job done right.

    She didn't go buy a new car either, and is wisely driving a 2000 GM model that she bought herself and which works perfectly well.

    She also decided, arranged and is paid for a small apartment for herself, moving out on her own at $9 (now $10!) per hour, paying her own rent and doing well. Yes, it can be done.

    If you have amassed, or are forecasting to amass $80,000 to $100,000 in student loans for a degree in a low paying field such as social work (unless you plan on being a 'community organizer' and moving up from there, although the guy we all know of who did that, had a law degree) then you made what I feel was a very costly and bad business decision.

  • Report this Comment On October 14, 2009, at 3:31 PM, dymty wrote:

    Those $7.00/hr jobs are for those w/o an education, and are what make your double cheeseburgers more affordable at only $1.00 each. I can't imagine having 30k in education loans looming over me and making only $7.00/hr. Hell, I couldn't imagine even being able to pay rent on $7.00/hr. Even if that was a full time job (40 hrs/wk), it's less than 15k gross. How long is one expected to live at home? How far do you think that $1,200 car will go? $7.00/hr may be good for a high school kid, but not for someone who's put in a few good years at college. I admit that people do need to work hard and pay their dues. I did and I'm almost 50, but now out of work and it looks like the field I was in has all but dried up. From the looks of the posts here, going out for a four year degree will not net the kind of job that will allow me to continue to pay my mortgage or keep the wheels under my car. Thank goodness I only have my mouth to feed. Had I children and a spouse, I might have to think about an intended default and going on public assistance. There most definitely is an issue here when college grads have to compete for space on the lowest rung with high school students and illiterate immigrants.

    $7.00/hr jobs are not for college grads! They're even fit for high school kids and illiterate immigrants!

  • Report this Comment On October 23, 2009, at 6:59 AM, Stuief wrote:

    Don't you mean 80 million weak?

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