General Motors: Still a Loser

First, the news: General Motors announced today that it lost almost $1.2 billion in the third quarter. On a pre-tax basis, it lost $261 million from operations worldwide between July 10, the day it exited bankruptcy, and Sept. 30. Some regions, like Asia Pacific and Latin America, were profitable, some weren't -- its loss in North America was $651 million.

This, they say, is progress. But is it?

It might be. It's not the kind of progress Ford (NYSE: F  ) and Toyota (NYSE: TM  ) have shown, surprising us with profits recently, but there's an argument to be made that it's progress.

And GM's making it aggressively. Clearly, it's aching to show that it's keeping up with the cool kids. While GM doesn't have a nice shiny bottom-line number to show us -- at least not yet -- it offers these reasons for optimism:

  • Money in the bank. It's got plenty of cash on hand -- $42.6 billion, according to today's release. However, GM warned that it expected that number to "decline materially" next quarter.
  • Revenue is up 21% from the second quarter. (Of course, it spent the second quarter in bankruptcy, but still.)
  • Strong overseas sales, particularly in China, where it sold 478,000 vehicles in the third quarter, up more than100,000 from the first quarter, and enough to help motor GM to a 13% share of the BRIC markets (Brazil, Russia, India, and China).
  • Some hit products. GM's current lineup isn't exactly the talk of consumers coast to coast, but it does have some solid products that are selling well and getting good reviews -- the Chevy Equinox SUV, the Buick LaCrosse sedan, and the neo-mullet-rocket Chevy Camaro among them.

So at first glance it looks like GM's on the road to recovery -- an impression that it is clearly at pains to give. But what's really going on?

The other side of the coin
Here's what I'm not seeing at GM, and it's why I'm skeptical of any positive developments it might report: I'm not seeing the sea change in management and culture that we've seen at Ford headquarters over in Dearborn.

Sure, the occupants of GM's senior management suite have (mostly) changed since last winter, and they've made some structural changes and launched a few great products, but is it really a different company?

I'm not so sure.

Why pay down debt now?
Consider: As part of the auto bailout, GM was lent a lot of money by the U.S. and Canadian governments, but much of that debt was converted to equity. About $6.7 billion in U.S. Treasury loans remain on GM's balance sheet, maturing in January 2015.

2015 is a long way off, but GM is going to start repaying it early; $1 billion in December and another billion every quarter until it's gone, it says. And I ask: Should that really be the priority right now, with sales still stumbling and its products still lagging Ford and the Japanese makers in quality surveys? With so much work left to do, is paying off debt the best way to use those dollars?

Or is it just an expensive PR gesture of questionable value?

I get what they're thinking. GM suffers from the stigma of having been "bailed out," and management probably believes that that's hurting them in the North American marketplace. And they're probably right, to some extent -- but I worry that they're seeing this as a magic bullet, looking past the deeper problems with their product offerings.

And that's the real worry. GM's old management often seemed eager to blame their problems on just about anything -- the economy, exchange rates, gas prices -- except the deficiencies in their product lineup. That attitude drove them into a very deep ditch, as we all know.

Have they really transcended that mind-set? We'll have to wait and see.

Market share: More GM old-think?
Here's something else that troubles me: The emphasis on market share in today's news releases. This might seem like a quibble, but for me, that's a red flag. Why? Because market share has historically been a preoccupation of GM management, much to their detriment.

There's nothing wrong with a focus on market share, on the surface. But to switch industries for a moment, consider: According to a report cited in PC World, Apple (Nasdaq: AAPL  ) , with approximately a 2.5% share of the global cell-phone market, made more profit on its phones in the third quarter than did giant Nokia (NYSE: NOK  ) with a global market share of about 35%.

If you sell products people really want, products like the iPhone, you can make more money on them, no matter your market share. Honda (NYSE: HMC  ) , one of the more Apple-like car makers, has known this for years. Ford seems to be getting it -- with a focus on great products that it can sell without margin-killing rebates, its goal is to make money no matter the size of the global automotive market in any given year.

GM ... we'll have to wait and see.

Why I may be wrong
It may be that GM has the killer products it will need to go head-to-head with Ford et al in its pipeline, and is talking up overseas markets and debt repayment to buy time while it brings those products to market.

In particular, I'm looking forward to learning more about its upcoming small cars, traditionally a rough spot for GM. To my mind, small cars will be the key automotive battleground in coming years.

GM's competitors are already gearing up. Toyota and Honda will have strong entries, and Ford has an all-new Focus and the excellent Fiesta coming shortly. Even mostly moribund Chrysler will have the cute-as-a-Mini Fiat 500 on sale in the U.S. before too long. GM has an all-new volume model planned for 2011 -- the Chevy Cruze -- and it needs to be better than excellent, a no-excuses product. Will it be?

As with everything else with GM, we'll just have to wait and see.

Fool contributor John Rosevear once owned a 1990 Corvette ZR-1 that would do 180 mph, not that he would ever dream of exceeding the legal speed limit. He owns shares of Apple and Ford. Apple is a Motley Fool Stock Advisor selection. Nokia is a Motley Fool Inside Value recommendation. Try any of our Foolish newsletters today, free for 30 days. The Motley Fool has a disclosure policy.


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  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:22 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    "THE MOTLEY FOOL. TO EDUCATE, AMUSE AND ENRICH"... THE WORD "EDUCATE" DOES NOT APPLY.

    MOST OF GM'S NEW PRODUCTS JUST HIT THE SHOWROOMS IN THE THIRD QUARTER AND THEY DO HAVE SOME EXITING PRODUCTS FOR THE 2011 MODEL YEAR... THE CHEVY CRUZE BEING ONE OF THEM.

    STOP BEING ANTI-AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:25 PM, yachtboy9 wrote:

    GM doesn't get it on a lot of levels. They're still an arrogant bunch that have little understanding of their business. An example of this is a commercial currently running where they compare the GM product against Honda and beat them in every category. The punch line supposedly is that HONDA beats them in one area, a product they don't make at GM. The Lawnmower (snicker snicker).

    So how many Honda autos do you think are sold to owners of HONDA lawnmowers.?

    Give the GM consumer experience over the years, if you owned a GM automobile product, would you buy a GM lawnmower?

    Think about it

    GM needs to pull that ad and quick. They just don't get the joke.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:26 PM, yachtboy9 wrote:

    GM doesn't get it on a lot of levels. They're still an arrogant bunch that have little understanding of their business. An example of this is a commercial currently running where they compare the GM product against Honda and beat them in every category. The punch line supposedly is that HONDA beats them in one area, a product they don't make at GM. The Lawnmower (snicker snicker).

    So how many Honda autos do you think are sold to owners of HONDA lawnmowers.?

    Give the GM consumer experience over the years, if you owned a GM automobile product, would you buy a GM lawnmower?

    Think about it

    GM needs to pull that ad and quick. They just don't get the joke.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:40 PM, jeffbox1 wrote:

    When I watch the GM "Let the best car win" commercials, I just scratch my head in amazement. As I see it, the best cars already won...and that's why GM went into bankrupcy. I wonder if we'll ever see any numbers on how many cars are returned under that program.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:41 PM, TMFMarlowe wrote:

    TURI57, have you driven the Cruze? How do you know it's "exciting"? GM has been on the verge of introducing the mainstream car that will finally beat the competition for over 30 years, since the Citation... by my reckoning, the current Malibu was the first one to come close. That's a good sign, but personally when it comes to the Cruze (or the Volt, or the Caprice, or anything else in their pipeline) I'll believe it when I drive it.

    Thanks for reading.

    John Rosevear

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:44 PM, phamtastic wrote:

    Seeing that GM commercial compare itself with Honda, I feel like it did a disservice to GM credibility. It's like seeing a college athlete go on TV and claim that he would beat a known elite NBA athlete like Kobe Bryant any time. Yeah, right! Whatever.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:51 PM, plange01 wrote:

    a disgrace of a company living off taxpayers welfare.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:52 PM, wolfhounds wrote:

    Or Uncle Sam, who owns GM, may be pushing to get it's money back asap so it can pull off the biggest IPO heist in history.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Fool wrote:

    I think everyone is missing the point...the American consumer is not buying GM, they are buying Ford especially in the heartland and everyone knows why...

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 6:45 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    First of all the reason why the cutthroat Asians have been able to use better quality parts in their vehicles is because of their lower labor cost (which is what you right wingers want, lower wages and little benefits for the American working stiffs). second: the Asians import most of what they sell here from lower wage countries, Korea, Japan, and Mexico. third: they (the Asians) don't have the legacy cost the domestic auto have (of course to most of you having retirement and health care benefits is being a "criminal").

    TMF... YOU'RE THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE NEGATIVITY THAT RUNS RAMPANT IN EVERYTHING THAT'S AMERICAN...

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Fool wrote:

    GO FORD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 6:52 PM, TMFMarlowe wrote:

    Hey TURI57, you sound like Rick Wagoner. He had all the excuses and all the answers -- except for the one that would actually make a difference. There's a reason he's unemployed now. Think about it.

    John Rosevear

    ps: If I'm so anti-American, why have I been praising Ford's amazing turnaround for months?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 6:56 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    "a disgrace of a company living off taxpayers welfare"?

    PLANGE01: GM HAS TAKEN CARE OF MILLIONS OF AMERICAN WORKERS WHO, FOR OVER 100 YEARS HAVE PAYED TRILLIONS IN TAXES TO LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL..

    WHAT HAS TOYOTA, HONDA, HYUNDAI AND KIA DONE FOR THIS COUNTRY THE LAST 100 YEARS OTHER THEN CUTTING AMERICAN WORKER'S THROATS!!!!!!!!!!!

    IS KEEPING AMERICAN WORKERS ON THE JOB IS A "DISGRACE"?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:01 PM, Docdearth2 wrote:

    GM is an example of a company that woke up way too late. It's unbelievable that this company which had been a leader and one of the largest, if not "THE" largest manufacturing company in the USA back in the 60's became such a "has been" auto manufacturer. With a few notable exceptions they just made crappy quality cars for too many years that no one wanted. In the meantime, the foreign manufacturers especially Honda and Toyota ran rings around them in terms of style, quality, reliability and fit and finish. Nevertheless, I really hope they can turn themselves around, if they haven't already dug themselves too deep a hole.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:04 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    TMF: IF FORD WOULD HAVE TAKEN A LOAN FROM THE GOVERNMENT YOU'D HAVE BAD MOUTHED THEM ALSO...BTW IF YOU'D DO YOUR HOME WORK YOU'LL FIND OUT THAT FORD IS IN WORSE SHAPE THE GM.

    I HOPE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF WHATS AMERICAN!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:05 PM, jm7700229 wrote:

    Here's some stuff I found interesting: in las year's JDPower 3 year survey, the top 5 were, in this order< Infinity and Buick (tie), Cadillac, Mercury and then Toyota (I think Honda was 7th).

    In the most current release, Ford and GM products were in the top half, both for initial quality and for 3 year records. Chrysler was down at about the 65% level, but still beat BMW.

    IMHO, the American makers biggest problem is PR, and particularly Consumer Reports. CR uses a totally unscientific survey method that produces results not duplicated anywhere else. And they've never seen a Honda they didn't like.

    Two of my three cars are Chryslers: a Town & Country I bought new in 2003 (my third) and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon that I bought used. I expect to replace both of these vehicles eventually with the new version of the same thing because they are both the best at what they do.

    Toyota is a marketing firm first and foremost, and really good at it, too. Honda doesn't do nearly as well outside the US, where they don't have CR to help them out. And Nissan?

    Now, for GM's issues: paying back Uncle is a politically smart thing to do, and they are now a political toy. Don't expect them to put efficiency in front of politics -- it can't happen in a state-owned company.

    Last summer, GM opened or cancelled the closing of three plants, all making larger vehicles because of an unexpected increase in demand (before the Cash for Clunkers bailout of the Japanese auto industry). Is that because small cars are the wave of the future? I don't thing so, not unless the Greens can talk Congress into putting a $3 or $4 per gallon tax on gasoline, like the Europeans and Japanese have.

    Just as American tire manufacturers have ceded the low end of the market to the BRICs, I think the US automakers should cede the mini market to Japan and concentrate on the big vehicles that they do a MUCH better job of building than the Japanese. Of course, Obama doesn't like that. He wants US makers to try to copy what other people do well instead of concentrating on what they are already good at.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:12 PM, TerribleatCAPS wrote:

    TURI57 wrote: WHAT HAS TOYOTA, HONDA, HYUNDAI AND KIA DONE FOR THIS COUNTRY THE LAST 100 YEARS OTHER THEN CUTTING AMERICAN WORKER'S THROATS!!!!!!!!!!!

    They've provided less expensive, more reliable alternatives to the domestic product being offered.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:17 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    The American people have a mental problem... 6/7 years ago Chrysler could do no wrong , their products were the envy of the industry. Now you're telling me those same products are junk?

    Our domestic cars are as good and/or better then those Asian rust boxes!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:18 PM, wjarvis wrote:

    Sure is interesting reading all these comments. Chrysler is all but gone, GM restructured with tax payer assistance and the almighty Ford was one step away. Ford leveraged everything they had BEFORE the bad economy. They could still be a ticking time bomb. Then what will you think of them?

    People living too long is the problem. Cost the companies too much in pension and health insurance for retiries. Then the auto industry could do like so many other companies and cancel the health care altogether. Shut down plants faster, etc.

    We are helping the companies that helped keep our communities vibrant. Every community fears the loss from a plant closing. It's more than just taxes.

    If we keep insulting our major employers what would cause them to want to stay in our communities? GM is talking about moving their headquarters from Michigan. I wouldn't blame them at all if they moved their headquarters to Mexico the way we're treating them. And if the headquarters go, so goes more tax dollars.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:20 PM, richsue3 wrote:

    Let me get this straight - It is bad when foreign countries sell their products here but when GM sells them there that is OK. Seems some readers just don't get it. The payback to the taxpayer is just being paid for by the tax payer. GM is losing period as it has in the past.

    Yes some of their products can stand the test of time - Think Camero, Malibu, Equinox, but most lasting product has been the CAVALIER.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:26 PM, eric2800 wrote:

    I think the simple reason why GM will fail at least for investors is partly stated in the article. There has been no major changes. Same management. Same labor union with even more power along with the taxpayer whose representatives are very pro labor union. Like the article says, they are still talking the same way. GM should have went through a real bankruptcy. Then at least management would have been totally wiped out.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:32 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    TerribleatCAPS: THE ASIANS HAVE BEEN CUTTING AMERICAN WORKERS THROATS SINCE ALLOWED HERE BY R. REAGAN TO BUST THE UAW... 30% OF THEIR WORK FORCE WORKS FOR $12HR AND NO BENEFITS (TWO YEAR CONTRACT WORKERS) THE REASON WHY NEW ENTRIES UAW WAGES ARE AT $14HR... TO COMPETE WITH THEIR LOW WAGES...

    ALL OF THEIR NEW TRANSPLANTS WAGES WILL BE AT $15/17HR TO COMPETE WITH NEW UAW'S... DO YOU SEE THE TRENT HERE? THE ONLY THING THE ASIANS ARE DOING IS CUTTING OUR THROAT, DESTROYING AMERICAN LIVING STANDARDS.

    FOR EVERY FOREIGN TRANSPLANT THAT OPES UP AT LOWER WAGES... ONE OF OUR CLOSES.

    AS FOR THEIR BOGUS QUALITY? IS JUST THAT "BOGUS".

    LESS EXPENSIVE? YOU'RE KIDDING RIGHT?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:35 PM, jmack3388 wrote:

    Go Ford is right!!! Based on what we have all been reading about their quality and their decision to pick themselves up and pay back their debts - Ford is on a real role.

    I have to believe the difference is their CEO, Alan Mulally, who really seems to get it. When I read his comments / press releases - it is like a breath of fresh air. This guy actually builds to demand instead of taking the attitude "the dealers have to sell whatever we build" which has been great for profits. Mulally preaches "quality, fuel economy, safety, and technology" and holds his company accountable to deliver on all of those fronts. Sounds like a winning formula to me.

    Nice to see the stock jump from under $2 to over $8 in less than a year. They are doing a lot of things right and are easy to root for.

    Go Ford!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 7:54 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    richsue3:

    KIA and Hyundai exported 850,000 Korean made cars to USA last year... How many AMERICAN made cars did the Koreans buy?

    Toyota and Honda exported close to 3 million cars from Japan, Korea and Mexico to the USA... How many AMERICAN made cars did they buy?

    perhaps... you're the one that don't get it!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:03 PM, ojdrew wrote:

    Speaking as an American I'm shocked to see so many defending GM and the unions that put them in this situation. There has been a steady decline for many years, one protected by unions and government. Now the government and union owns GM; that sound I just heard must be GM's death knell.

    The deal the gov't concocted with the unions to wipe out all existing GM shareholders was daylight robbery. The company should have sold assets, paid debts and restructured under bankruptcy and maintained the existing ownership. Only if there was nothing left should shareholder value be wiped out. I'm speaking as someone who never owned GM stock.

    Why do people believe that the UAW wages and living standards are a right? The UAW didn't compromise fast enough and a lot of people have had to lose their jobs.

    To be clear, I blame the GM lobbyists for encouraging the government to intervene to protect / delay GM's failing company from its date with destiny. It didn't have to be like this; if only they'd dealt with the underlying problems a decade ago: product quality and uncompetitive union wages & benefits.

    I'll never buy a car from GM, especially given its current ownership. Sure hope the government is able to get its money back with interest.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:10 PM, TerribleatCAPS wrote:

    TURI57 wrote: AS FOR THEIR BOGUS QUALITY? IS JUST THAT "BOGUS".

    LESS EXPENSIVE? YOU'RE KIDDING RIGHT?

    I can only speak from personal experience, so here it is: In 1996, I bought a Toyota Corolla for $14k. I bought Toyota because my previous two vehicles, both American made, ran up significant repair costs (conveniently not covered by warranty) within the first five years of ownership. In the intervening 13 years, I have driven that same Corolla for 166k miles and have paid no more into it than regular maintenance (I consider tire and battery replacement as expected costs after so many miles). I consider that cost effective quality.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:23 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    ojdrew... An American you're NOT... Those defending GM (An American company) and the UNIONS (American workers) are the real American.

    The cause of Detroit's problems has been caused by those buying Asian rust boxes taking away market share needed to cover legacy cost for AMERICAN retirees, not the unions. the only thing the unions are guilty of is livable wages, health care benefits, pensions and safe work environment for workers... to you those are criminal activities!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:25 PM, ccrashcup wrote:

    "I'll never buy a car from GM, especially given its current ownership. Sure hope the government is able to get its money back with interest"

    This is exactly why they're TOAST. The majority of people feel this way and one term Obama won't be around to "fix them."

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:31 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    TerribleatCAPS:

    I'm still driving a 1987 sky-blue Chevy Cavalier with 198.000ml.

    Why is it that when a Chevy breaks down its a junk... when an Asian rust box break down its wear and tear?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:36 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    ojdrew wrote: "Why do people believe that the UAW wages and living standards are a right"?

    Why do wall street fat cats thing that fat wallets are a right?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:37 PM, Freddi14 wrote:

    It is only matter of time before GM is toast again. Then the Union's will go down and hopefully we will not bailout their pensions and medical benefits again.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 8:40 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    freddi... the day GM goes down is the day this country goes down...be careful of what you wish!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:00 PM, ojdrew wrote:

    TURI57, give it a rest, the days of McCarthyism are over and should stay that way.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

    By spouting that kind of rhetoric sir you damage the very thing that the country stands for (freedom & tolerance) and make the USA less in the eyes of the world. In 1959, Harry S. Truman denounced the House Un-American Activities Committee as the "most un-American thing in the country today. Amen brother.

    I for one firmly believe that the USA has a competitive, dynamic economy that can compete fairly with any other nation on the planet. Yes, I am a bullish on the USA (long term).

    Can you say the same? You seem afraid and appear to believe that the USA needs protection - from who or what?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:07 PM, TerribleatCAPS wrote:

    TURI57 wrote: I'm still driving a 1987 sky-blue Chevy Cavalier with 198.000ml.

    I'm happy to hear that. A reliable car's a great thing to have.

    Having said that: It appears that you and I have contributed the exact same amount to the coffers of American automobile makes in the last 15+ years. Dies that make us equally un-American?

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:10 PM, LessGovernment wrote:

    I don't believe the talk about GM not making good vehicles and simply chalk all that talk up to ignorance. Not stupidity mind you, just ignorance - that can be overcome with education. I drive a Silverado. I bought it as the economy was sinking into the economic deep funk thinking it would help American jobs. I discovered later it was assembled in Mexico. I guess in a way, it still helped some American with a job, at least I hope so. It averages about 18 miles per gallon city / highway which is not bad for a truck with a crew cab. It has On-Star which is real handy with the turn by turn instructions through the sound system so you don't even have to take your eyes off the road. Just push a button and talk to OnStar and tell them where you want to go and the system displays the next run I the tachometer and a friendly voice comes on (after muting the sound system and cutting down the Air condition blower) and tells you that you need to make a turn in a mile, then ½ mile, then the tachometer counts down in 25 yard increments, and then it beeps at the turn. You can't make a wrong turn. Real handy at night in large cities where one is not familiar. I have trouble seeing the little street signs at night, especially in bad weather so the turn by turn instructions makes the going much safer and keeps me from making wrong turns while allowing me to keep my eyes on the road. Amazingly accurate technology. Hands free phone? - built in. Remote start? Yep - that too. I needed that in a bad ice storm last year when up in the mountains and the truck was covered with about 3/8 inch of ice. The doors were literally frozen shut, sealed up in a thick coating of hard ice. I could not get in. But I could start it remotely and let it warm up. Then getting in was no problem. I never thought I would need remote start, but I was wrong. I like to surf fish as it allows me to clear my head and think things through in the relative peace of the ocean surf and the cries of the gulls. The four wheel drive with locking differential has plenty of traction which allows me to get out onto land's end at the edge of the tide and surf fish when I have the chance. All in all, it is a very good truck. I just hope the company that made it will stay in business. The truck will last me at lest 10 years. I just wonder if the company that built it will last that long. I sure hope they do. Like I said, they make a very good truck.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:21 PM, jmack3388 wrote:

    Go Ford!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:23 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Wrong...TerribleatCAPS... I drive a Chevy (AN AMERICAN CAR). You drive a Toyota (JAPANESE CAR). I also own a brand new Chevy Blazer... also an american car.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:37 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Let me ask you a simple question OJDREW... Can we compete with Mexico $2hr wages? can we compete with china $.35hr wages? can we compete with Korea $1hr wages? all these countries and others that we trade with subsidize and protect their industries and their workers.

    We have huge trade deficits with every country we trade with...the word "DEFICIT" means we're losing the game. the only thing we're exporting is our technology and our jobs... corporate America is using third world cheap labor to fatten up wall street...do we need to protect our jobs? what do you think?

    With out our jobs we have no buying power... with out our buying power there is no wall street!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:52 PM, OneOut1 wrote:

    Tur157

    I spent 22 years as a used car dealer. I made money buying, reconditioning, and reselling used cars. I have bought 1000s of cars. Some of them I financed to retail buyers, so I saw their performance over an extended period. I learned early to only finance the makes that were most likely to last at least as long as the note. Across the board, American cars do not match up to Japenese cars by a long shot. It's not even close. The biggest travesty of all were 4 cylinder, front wheel drive, American made cars. What a joke.

    GM, Ford and Chrysler all survived as long as they did primarily due to their easy financing.

    Your personal experience with Your American made small car is an anomaly and should be treated as such. It's sad, but it is true.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 9:53 PM, PoundMutt wrote:

    Pickups, SUVs big sellers in program; 'Cash for clunkers'; 700,000 vehicles sold, including Hummers; many vehicles aren't fuel efficient.

    Go here (for "The Rest of the Story"):

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Pickups,+SUVs+big+sellers+in+p...

    GM is AMERICAN???!!! My wife's 2007 Chevy Equinox contains 50% overseas made parts and labor.

    Why is it that MOST of the Ford Advertisements are geared toward Ford employees and retirees? Do they ACTUALLY think they can survive selling to those people ONLY? As long as I continue to see (or hear) such ads I WILL NOT consider purchasing a Ford product!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 10:11 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    PoundMutt... perhaps buying a 100% Japanese Toyota prius, a 100% Korean made KIA or Hyundai or a 100% Japanese Honda Fit would make you feel better.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 10:37 PM, robinjoe wrote:

    As someone who spent thousands in repairs on a Chevy minivan only to ultimately abandon it after it blew up (65,000 miles), I can say with confidence that the US car makers haven't caught up with the Japanese. The Opel I drove in Europe was pretty cool. Amazing gas,actually diesel mileage and a very slick 6 speed manual.

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 10:47 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Oneout1:

    I know you're b.s.ing... 22 years ago those Asian rust boxes didn't last more the a year without their fenders or other parts fell off of them at the slightest bump on the road... the myth about their quality is just that a "myth" I drove a 1984 Chevy celebrity till 2004 and pulled a 17 ' boat with it for the last 8 years... want to see you do that with your Asian rust boxes... when a Toyota last, it is a special thing...when a Chevy last, it is an ordinary thing!

  • Report this Comment On November 16, 2009, at 10:52 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Robinjoe... When you don't change the oil the motor usually blows-up... BTW HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT THE TOYOTAS BEING BLOWING UP THE LAST 6/7 YEARS BECAUSE OF OIL SLUDGE IN THE MOTORS AND TOYOTA REFUSAL TO FIX THE PROBLEM? GOOGLE-IT.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 12:19 AM, glyphmon wrote:

    First post ever for me so I'll lay it out there. I'm a Ford guy who's brand of choice is Mercury. I predicted and wished (for all the right reasons) that GM would go through bankruptcy. I believe Toyota is trying to take over the world.

    That being said...

    What I can't believe is that anyone here so honestly believes that, A) All foreign-brand cars are junk and/or evil and that American-brand cars are infinitely superior, or B) American-brand cars are such unbelievable crap and that their foreign-brand counterparts are invulnerable to the normal wear and tear of driving.

    Face it people, there are a few basic realities in this industry.

    One - EVERY manufacturer has some good products and bad products, whether measured by safety, reliability, or appeal.

    Two - As has already been pointed out, many American-brand autos are made with foreign-sourced parts or even assembled outside the US. My 2007 V6 AWD Mercury Milan is produced in Hermosillo, Mexico, and you know what? It is probably the best car I've driven.

    Three - As has probably already been pointed out (I skipped a lot of useless bias and ignorance), many Foreign-brand autos are made with American-sourced parts and assembled, surprise surprise, in the US. So that assembly line worker in the Toyota truck plant down in Texas is getting at least minimum wage to build that "foreign rust box" of a truck.

    Four - All cars if given the proper amount and quality of maintenance will perform better than cars which are not maintained. Don't know why this was even brought up.

    That being said, it is unfortunate, but yes, in the '80s and 90's, quality was most certainly not job #1 in any of the American car companies. It was cost cutting, bean counting, and incentive plastering running rampant. At the same time, many offerings were given very ho-hum styling. Oh, sure, the Taurus was stylin' in its day, but from '86 through '95, not a lot changed in the looks department.

    Detroit (and Dearborn, and Auburn Hills) rested on its laurels because of a "too big to fail" mentality.

    At the same time, the foreign automakers (Toyota, Honda, and maybe to a slightly smaller extent Nissan) began to bring their game and build a BETTER car. Was it the most attractive thing on the road? Maybe not. Did it rust? WHAT CAR DOESN'T RUST WITH TIME? Did they last and were they safe? Compared to their Detroit rivals, YES.

    Today, in the case of Ford (and to a lesser extent, Government Motors), at least according to most major auto reviewers, the quality and reliability gap between compared to the foreign rivals has closed or is closing with the introduction of newer models.

    Today's problem for American-brand autos lies mostly in perception, and not necessarily the perception that American-brand cars and trucks are bad, but the perception that foreign-brand offerings are BETTER. This perception may be true in some cases, but it is definitely false in others. Recent (and lightly publicized) Toyota recalls do come to mind. There seems to have been a heavy bias in many media sources towards the foreign makes and against domestics, though this has improved recently.

    My 2000 Mercury Sable just turned 169,000 miles last week. It's on its third transmission (the first two were replaced or rebuilt under extended warranty), but it's also on its second hood, front quarter panel, and bumper cover after I hit a deer and was able to drive away. It has some squeaks and rattles and only gets 26/30 for mileage. But it's an excellent car still, and I'll drive it till it dies, which will probably still be a long time.

    Just like that guy with his 250,000 mile Toyota Corolla. And guess what? Both cars have rust.

    Chill people. Bias doesn't help anybody.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 12:30 AM, dc46and2 wrote:

    The country would be better off without GM, the UAW, and parasites like Mr. CAPSLOCK who extort wages and benefits from their employer, then the taxpayers, and then demand that we buy what we judge to be an inferior product as some sick patriotic duty.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 12:33 AM, dc46and2 wrote:

    The country would be better off without GM, the UAW, and parasites like Mr. CAPSLOCK who extort wages and benefits from their employer, then the taxpayers, and then demand that we buy what we judge to be an inferior product as some sick patriotic duty.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Ibeatmykids wrote:

    TUR157,

    Your arguments are completely irrational. No one here is anti American, they are anti GM. You believe that GM products are great. Well guess what, your opinion is different from about 95% of the American population. You speak of fat cats on Wall Street, what about the fat cats in the GM building that sooner took tax payer money than reducing the size of their incredibly expensive business. There is a reason that Ford is taking over the American auto industry and it isn't because of the evil American consumer, it is GM's own fault. You attitude of blaming everyone else besides GM is what got GM into this mess in the first place. I personally would like to see GM gone just out of principle. Let Ford take over and start making money (not taking money) for the American people because GM has proven it is a burden on our society..

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 12:54 AM, wrkdiver wrote:

    Everyone seems to be ignoring the 800 pound Gorilla - Exactly how easy have the Japanese and Korean governents made it for US companies to sell cars in their countries? When I spent a year in Brasil, the import taxes on an American car were equal to the price of the car, ie: a $14,000 window sticker Mustang cost $28,000. They all LOVE American cars when they can get them. Free Trade? Only a slogan to most foreign governments.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 1:04 AM, Ibeatmykids wrote:

    MR CAPSLOCK is all that is wrong with GM who feels we are obligated to buy their inferior products. I will buy whatever product I think is the best, and guess what, it definetely isn't a GM vehicle. That is rerality and I am not the one that has to adapt to survive, GM is.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 2:36 AM, jomueller1 wrote:

    As much as I like to see workers in the US produce lots of cars for use anywhere I feel this finger pointing is off the mark. Friends of mine Germany bought a "Chevrolet" made in Korea. It beats me why GM wants to establish the Chevrolet brand in Germany. Do they not trust Opel? Why ship a car at quite some expense around half the world to a country that produces more cars than it can sell at home? So GM has to take losses to sell the car because price is the only reason to buy such a strange brand. Is that business sense?

    The launch of the ugly terrain shows in many respects that GM does same old, same old.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 3:04 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    TURI57 -

    since you like to yell in all caps at us, here i'll shout it out for you:

    WE ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE EMOTIONALLY INVESTED IN GM - IF NOT EMPLOYED FOR THEM! GO AWAY OR ADD SOMETHING MEANINGFUL TO THE DISCUSSION!

    *cough cough* sorry just had to voice my thoughts on something that kept bothering me....

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 3:12 AM, thisislabor wrote:

    LessGovernment, your too funny. roflmao. ahh that was funny.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 5:11 AM, jaderdavila wrote:

    if this way GM is not doing it, it's time to change

    i suggest GM parts in small companies

    each independent to the market

    the GM mother company as a holding

    exemple

    the chassis sector selling only chassis to others

    the motor sector selling only motors

    an assembler could buy the chassis and the motor and assemble whatever he wishes

    this small outfit can change with the client

    the wholle GM operation is too big too costly

    for a customer simply does not like and does not buy the car

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 9:58 AM, CAPTAINWACK wrote:

    GM needs to release the VOLT at a reasonable price. That's when they"ll begin to see a rebound in market share in North America.

    Until then, they are just another car manufacture, which are a dime a dozen. Nothing exciting nothing more.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 11:26 AM, kmacattack wrote:

    Enjoyed reading most of your comments. I currently own about 10 vehicles, the newest is a 2003 Ford Taurus, which I purchased used about 4 years ago. I just lost the transmission, which has been a problem with this vehicle (along with it's cousin the Sable). I've changed the oil every 3,000 miles and drive pretty reasonably, but, I purchased the car with 60,000 miles on it and never checked or changed the transmission fluid. I'm told that on this car the transmissions will last forever if you service them every 15,000 miles, which is about once a year, and that rebuilts are available with beefed up parts for a few extra bucks. This has been a great car, gets good gas mileage, and the only other repair bills I've had have been front brake rotors (about $50 for the pair) and outer tie rod ends (about $50 more) The car was a lease or rental car, and those often don't get scheduled maintainance. I bought the car for $3,500 four years ago after it had been rebuilt from a side impact collission, so it has been an extremely cost effecient vehicle, not to mention that is rated the safest car to drive in it's class. I currently own 3 Hondas, and they geneally are very good cars. I've owned 19 Hondas since 1978 and enjoyed driving them all. However, they also break down occasionally and my experience has been that repair costs on the foreign cars are much higher generally than on my Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler vehicles that I have owned. The Hondas get a little better gas mileage than the Taurus, but are much smaller, lighter, and I don't believe are nearly as safe in a crash. My daughter was involved in a 20 mph crash in her Prelude, and had a severe knee injury from the dashboard despite the seat belt and air bag protection. A few months later, she was driving our 94 Ford Explorer and had a tire blowout at 75 mph, rolled 2 1/2 times and had only minor injuries.

    I also own an '02 Chevy Silverado 6 cylander pickup (this was also a rebuilt vehicle) with 160,000 miles on it that has had no major breakdowns with the exception of a fuel pump, and I replaced it myself for $125. I have driven the Toyota and Nissan pickups (drove an almost new full size Nissan two weeks ago) and hauled about 1,000 lbs of ceramic tile. The truck felt unstable and I thought handled poorly even before picking up the load. The seats were uncomfortable, and I thought cheap looking and feeling, and I believe they are considerably more expensive than the Ford and Chevy competitors.

    Regarding the comments that GM deserved to fail because they built cars that nobody wanted, this is pure FAUX "NEWS" propaganda. In the summer of 2000, gasoline was selling at one point for $0.79 per gallon. The Bush-ackwards tax program ENCOURAGED people (like myself) to buy GAS GUZZLING vehicles ONLY over 6,200 Gross weight to take a 100% tax deduction in one year. Corporate executives were buying Hummers, Suburbans, Excursions, Tahoes, etc. for themselves, their wives and their kids and writing off $200-$300,000 in the same tax year. Check out your local private school parking lot and take note of the abundance of SUV's in the lot!

    I bought my truck on Dec. 31st and took a full write of for the ENTIRE PRIOR year, whcih was totally legal.

    When there was an "oil shortage" and gas topped $5.00 per gallon, no one seemed to want to buy vehicles that got 9 mpg anymore. Amazing!

    GM executives had a working prototype hydrogen vehicle more than 10 years ago. When GM approacehd Exxon and the other monopoly players who sell gas nationwide about installing hydrogen pumps in their retail locations, the answer was "HELL NO". The problem for the Big Oil cartel is that it is too easy for people to make hydrogen themselves out of a product found in most American households- WATER !

    The statement that labor unions killed GM is totally untrue. Of the total cost of buidling an automobile, labor is only about 8%. I'm a business owner, not a member of a labor union, and was only a union member for a 6 month period 40 years ago. I didn't own GM stock, but I do own a Ford bond fund which is up 450% since last December (KVU) and which also pays a very generous dividend.

    $450 million in "campaign contributions" ( I think the term BRIBES is more appropriate) from Big Oil PAC's given to an oil friendly administration and congress had a lot to do with the demise of GM and, I believe the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, 45,000 of them Ameican servicemen, not to mention the near destruction of our economy from the effects of outrageous energy costs.

    There are a few posters on this forum who seem to have the attitude that business should be allowed to steal all they can get away with, unbridled by any govenment regulation, in the name of "capitalism." I would submit to you that this concept is more sociopathic than capitalistic.

    This is the same argument that the insurance "industry" (MAFIA is more appropriate) is trying to use, as they have for the past 70 years to kill a health care bill. Whoever decided that insurance and pharma companies would be allowed to take 17% of your paycheck, while still leaving 45 million people one heart attack away from bankruptcy? This is 5 to 9% MORE than health care costs in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY, where EVERYONE is covered . Could "campaign contributions" have some type of influence?

    I want a real PUBLIC OPTION available to me.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 11:38 AM, kmacattack wrote:

    Regarding the assertion that foreign cars are more trouble free, I think one thing that is being overlooked is demographics of buyers. It has been my observation that people who buy Hondas and Toyotas typically are more affluent, keep their cars in garages, washed and waxed, clean interiors, etc. and perform scheduled maintainance much more often than do domestic car buyers on the whole. Hondas and Toyotas are a status symbol somewhat when compared with Fords, Chevy's and Chryslers. On the other hand,as a current owner of Fords, Chevys, Hondas and a Mercedes, My experience has been that the foreign cars are more expensive to maintain and, especially to repair.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 12:08 PM, jesse2159 wrote:

    In 1999 I bought a GM car and an Acura. I still own both. The GM car needed thousands of dollars in repairs, about 150% more than the Acura. J.D. Powers tests brand new vehicles so it's no surprise that American vehicles test good. But for $40,000 I want a vehicle that can go the long haul and GM vehicles won't. I don't buy cars to support the UAW's lavish pay and benefits, nor do I particularly care that GM provided thousands of jobs in their communities. I buy a car for my needs, not theirs.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 1:44 PM, kmacattack wrote:

    The UAW's lavish pay is now a starting wage of $14 per hour, or $560 per week. The Mercedes I have needs the two rear power door locks replaced, the cruise doesn't work, the inner and outer tie rods were shot at 98,000 miles and I had to replace all 4 brake rotors. The power antenna doesn't work, the drivers seat is collapsing and has a spring protruding through the leather. The AC/defrost system blows only out the vents, no defrosting on the windshield, and the windshield washer motor doesn't work. The sunroof switch just fell into the dash when I tried to close it last time. The central locking system works only part of the time. The body has rusted through in about 4 places and the paint has crack marks all over. I am afraid to guess what parts will cost for this car, especially parts that I am forced to buy from Mercedes. I guess you think this car was made in America by the UAW.

    The Mercedes drives really nice and I think it is one of the best regarding crash ratings, but........

    And the only other car I've ever had this type of repair experience was another German car, an Audi, again supposedly a "superior quality"vehicle compared with American cars. I am going to fix what I can on the Mercedes, sell it and drive the Taurus another 100,000 miles. By the way, I have two friends who still own old Chevy Cavaliers, one with 185,000 miles on it and no major repairs, and the other friend's Cavalier has almost 300,000 miles on it. These cars cost about $12,000 new. Maybe you should have bought a cheaper model?

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 3:02 PM, regulatethem wrote:

    GM owes the taxpayer a lot more than 6 billion and we the taxpayer/car buyers will never forget that.

    Before the government threw all those billions at GM when they should have gotten the OK from the taxpayers first, reeking of favoritism to unions. And a market study should have proven that the sales are still there for their products, which it isn't.

    A market study would have shown that there aren't too many young people who want (unpopular) GM cars and even fewer can afford a new truck. Many are struggling to pay credit card debts and student loans. There are plenty of used, affordable trucks.

    GM will continue to be a loser. The question is, what will Obama do when they scream for the next bailout?

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 4:07 PM, duane4r wrote:

    fact check. fuel pump for 02 v6 chevy truck 125 dollars. at any auto parts store lol.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 6:47 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    thisislabor:

    You would love to see the domestic auto manufacturing and the united auto workers go away... YOU MUST BE PART OF THAT TEAM OF TOYOTA REPUBLICANS THAT MADE IT LOOK LIKE "COMEDY CENTRAL" WHEN GM, FORD AND CHRYSLER WENT TO WASHINGTON ASKING FOR A "LOAN"... BUT HAD NO PROBLEM GIVING THE FOREIGN TRANSPLANTS BILLION OF TAXPAYER'S MONEY IN GRANTS TO UNDER CUT AND DESTROY AMERICAN AUTO WORKER'S WAGES AND BENEFITS.

    GOING AWAY? SORRY... I'M AN AMERICAN AND I'M GOING TO STAND UP FOR AMERICA'S STANDARD OF LIVING AND AMERICAN WORKERS.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 6:53 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    regulatethem:

    What GM got was less then 5% of what the financial institutions got... ITS FUNNY YOU DO NOT MENTION THOSE THAT GOT THE BULK OF THE MONEY... IS IT BECAUSE YOU'RE AN OTHER TOYOTA REPUBLICAN WHO WOLD LIKE NOTHING BETTER THEN THE DEATH OF OUR DOMESTIC AUTO INDUSTRY?

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 7:55 PM, TMFMarlowe wrote:

    TURI57, you are welcome to stand up for America. But you should keep in mind that it's entirely possible to "stand up for America" and want to see GM succeed but think that their current management might not have what it takes to make them succeed.

    Remember, years of bad management ran this company into bankruptcy court. In order to believe that they'll be successful in the future, I need to see that management isn't going to repeat their old mistakes. So far I'm not convinced. That's not a knock on the UAW or GM or The American Way Of LifeTM or the fuelie Bel Air you've got stashed in your barn, that's a knock on the guys running the company right now.

    John Rosevear (who incidentally was a founding member of the National Corvette Museum)

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 7:56 PM, TMFMarlowe wrote:

    ps to TURI57: You might want to knock it off with the ALL CAPS. It gives the impression that you're an angry 10-year-old.

    John Rosevear

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 9:00 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    , TMFMarlowe:

    GM and the domestic auto industry's problems have little to do with management. (thats not saying that they are with out some fault) The domestic auto needs market share to cover legacy cost such as pensions and health care for 1.2 million retirees and their families, market share taken away by the cut throat Asians auto manufacturing exporting most of what they sell here from cheap labor countries such as Korea and Mexico.

    The Toyota republicans in Washington invited them here to undercut and bust the UAW... Not having the legacy cost and the higher wages of the domestics, they (the Asians transplants) are able to spend more on better quality parts, on advertising and they definitely have better PR.

    The $4.50 gasoline that killed the profitable SUV market didn't help...Unless the American people start to buy "made in America" by American companies this mess will get worse!!!!!!!

    AS FOR MY CAPS? IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR ME TO READ WHAT I'M WRITING... I APOLOGIZE IF I OFFEND ANY ONE!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 9:50 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Reality is that domestic auto needs market share to cover legacy cost, pension and health care benefits for 1.2 million retirees and their family... Market share that has been taken away by the foreign transplant who operate in this country at a much lower cost then the domestic, not having legacy cost and importing most of what they sell here from cheap labor countries like Korea and Mexico.

    Unless American people start buying "American" made by "American" companies, we'll not get out of this mess!

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 10:25 PM, TMFMarlowe wrote:

    GM's problems have everything to do with management. Geez, you make even more excuses for them than Rick Wagoner did. How do you think they got to the point where all of those other things threatened their existence? Lousy management. Why do you think Ford's turnaround is such a big deal? Great management. Where's GM? Not so great yet, as far as I can tell, and that's not going to be good enough.

    John Rosevear

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 10:35 PM, KayZeeDee wrote:

    gonna agree with TMFMarlowe on this one... it all hangs on leadership, doesn't it? it takes a lot of guts to make the drastic changes necessary to stay on top... GM has been relying on their name and history to carry them... those days are long gone! I do hope they can turn it around, but I fear there are other factors that they aren't willing to deal with... such as the UAW... who basically helped put the last few nails in the coffin... still no excuse for GM though! Ford has to deal with the same thing and they've turned it around. Toyota doesn't even play ball with them. tough times call for tough choices by tough leaders.

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 10:56 PM, MikesMoneyTalk wrote:

    I love my GMC Hybrid 4x4 truck but still wish we had not bailed them out Michael Jon Byers Lubbock Texas

  • Report this Comment On November 17, 2009, at 11:31 PM, hegibson wrote:

    Buy American? What is American, just that it is assembled here? Why should I buy something that is of inferior quality and value. Value, Value, Value, that is what is important to the buyer. Not only in product but in service. At this point in the vehicle game Toyota has the best overall value and many of them are assembled yes right here in the good ole US of A. I say, buy the best value and if the best value is not American then don't buy it. America got lazy and complacent. It needs to suck it up and work hard to regain lost ground. It needs to swallow a little pride and learn from others who have before learned from it.

  • Report this Comment On November 18, 2009, at 12:09 AM, usmarinetx wrote:

    TURI57,

    As the screenname implies I'm as American as it comes. After reading some of your...er, rants, I would hope you have considered becoming European in lieu of American. Americans, you see, are capitalists. This means superior products at the lowest prices. Yes, the foreign car makers may have been taking manufacturing jobs for years BUT that hasn't affected me at all. Some of us become educated and learn how money can make even more money. Let the "others" work with their hands. I have nothing against blue-collar workers and I am one myself until I finish my degree. I am also guessing you are a union guy yourself? BUT....DON'T YOU DARE CALL OTHERS UNAMERICAN BECAUSE GM HAS FAILED. (and, you can use any excuse you want) The investors know the fundamental financial reasons.....unions, poor products, poor managment, liberal taxes.

  • Report this Comment On November 18, 2009, at 12:12 AM, usmarinetx wrote:

    AND....now the UAW and the O'Bamster own the "new" GM.....its only a matter of time before it fails again.

  • Report this Comment On November 18, 2009, at 1:35 AM, Vogbar wrote:

    "KIA and Hyundai exported 850,000 Korean made cars to USA last year... How many AMERICAN made cars did the Koreans buy?

    Toyota and Honda exported close to 3 million cars from Japan, Korea and Mexico to the USA... How many AMERICAN made cars did they buy?"

    The trouble with US cars overseas is not quality or price. Here in Dubai where I live they are cheap.

    The trouble is they just look so damned stupid. Hummers? Tonka toys. The new Camaro? Are you kidding? Looks like an 12 year old's wet dream. Huge blunderbuss Suburbans, Tahoes etc...they just look and feel amateur compared to a Landcruiser - the real 4WD of choice all over the Mid-east and Africa, and there are good reasons for that.

    Then you guys try to do small cars as "shrunken big cars". Butt ugly again, like the Chrysler Caliber.

    I look at the new Caddies, and the lines just go all over the place, as if 4 different designers did the different parts of the vehicle, and were not allowed to speak to each other.

    The trouble is, most of the world has a sort of "efficiency" consideration built right into their aesthetics. Thats why American stuff looks clumsy and bloated, no matter how good it might be under the hood. Nobody wants it except Americans and a few 16 year old bling bling Arab boys.

    Most people will pay a premium for a car they can love. That's how manufacturers make money.

  • Report this Comment On November 18, 2009, at 7:47 AM, skydoggie wrote:

    how many of you actually visit auto dealers (foreign & domestic) on regular basis, to evaluate the new or popular cars & trucks. I am curious if this would help ehance your perspectives. for example: test drive a Buick Lacrosse, Ford Taurus, Honda Accord, Chevy Malibu, Toyota Camry, Chevy Equinox, Ford Focus, etc...

  • Report this Comment On November 18, 2009, at 9:37 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    usmarinetx... your screen name does not make you an American... a capitalistic fat cat? yeas. An American? no!

    If the shipping of American manufacturing jobs to slave labor countries hasn't effected you, it has effected millions of "AMERICAN". Being a selfish educated brainless fat cat , you could care less of other "AMERICANS"...

    When a GE plant making light bulbs close a plant in USA and ships production to china to fatten up wall street fat cats like you's wallets and then export those light bulbs back to USA and expect those people who's jobs the have taken away to buy them... THATS BEING UN-AMERICAN!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 18, 2009, at 9:48 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    VOGBAR: you don't know much about american cars in overseas market... a caddy in Europe cost 98,000 euros the difference in price is called "import tax... an american car exported to Japan is taken apart piece by piece before it gets to the show room and the cost passed on to the consumers, on top of their import tax... The reason american cars are cheap in Dubai is because those are vehicles left behind by various USA government agencies and contractors!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 4:04 AM, elbrombo wrote:

    TopGear magazine out of the UK recently wrote about GM trying to sell rebadged Korean Daewoos as Chevrolet "cool" to unsuspecting Europeans as one of the biggest corporate swindles of all time.

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 4:29 AM, elbrombo wrote:

    Here in Thailand, Japanese manufacturers rule the roost with I guess about 95% of the burgening emerging market, with Civics, Camrys, Jazz, Corolla pick-ups etc. all of them dull cars IMO, but notably reliable and no evidence of rust being a problem.

    European marks occupy the luxury end with Merc, BMW and Volvo with many of these models being assembled in Thailand. Lexus are also starting to make an impact.

    All imported cars have a 200% tax duty, which makes them very expensive. Having said that I see quite a few Ferraris and Range Rovers and Land Crusiers on the streets (and even the odd Hummer). The tax applies to the Japanese just as much as it does to the Americans and Eurpeans.

    Chevrolet have a small presence with rebadged Deawoos right at the bottom end of the market. Like their Japense counterparts they are horribly dull. European style Fords (made in the Philippines) are growing in popularity and rightly so.

    When I see a broken down car by the side of the road, for some reason it is always a Merc - go figure!

    For me, mass market car production is truely a global exercise.

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 5:04 AM, elbrombo wrote:

    Actual quote from the TopGear website:

    "It would be the most cynical piece of marketing dishonesty ever committed were it not for the fact that you'd have to be a Zillon from the planet Tharg to fall for it. A desperate GM sacrifices one of its most respected badges in an attempt to fool us into believing Korean tat is American cool. Truly pathetic."

    http://www.topgear.com/uk/chevrolet

    It is quite funny...and I guess sums up what many think of GM on this board.

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Sleddawg63 wrote:

    You are about to see the biggest taxpayer revolt ever! Normally taxpayers have little effect on the government's stranglehold on their pocketbook...but now the government owns something with a logo on it!

    How many people who despise the stimulus will want to buy GM?

    Sorry Turi, Ford, Honda and Toyota are the new big three. Don't start whining about competitive advantages...GM had it all and %^&$ed it away.

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 3:59 PM, ciirav4yahoocom wrote:

    HEY GM,

    Want to convince your potential customers that your cars are worth the risk?

    OFFER A 100,000 MILE POWERTRAIN WARRANTY with a 60,000 MILE BUMPER TO BUMPER WARRANTY.

    IT WORKED FOR HYUNDAI!

    Convincing their customers that they built quality products MADE TOYOTA and HONDA the successes they are now. Even FORD was able to convince customers that quality was job one.

    SO WHY CAN'T YOU?

    LACK OF QUALITY WAS THE SUPPOSED REASON FOR OLDSMOBILE GOING OUT OF EXISTANCE.

    Jim CARROLL

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 6:28 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Well... I see that most of the anti-American , anti-GM people in that posts here aren't from USA...DUBAI? UK? THAILAND? NO WONDER YOU PEOPLE ARE SO NEGATIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT'S AMERICAN... YOU'RE PROTECTING YOUR OWN A$$...

    B.T.W. NOVEMBER NUMBERS SAY THAT GM IN GAINING MARKET SHARE FOR THE FIFTH CONSECUTIVE MONTH... ciirav4yahoocom... WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

  • Report this Comment On November 19, 2009, at 6:37 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    Sleddawg63... F.Y.I. GM IS STILL THE #1 IN SALES IN USA AND GAINING MARKET SHARE... THATS REALITY AND THOSE #'S ARE FACTS...THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP AND FIGURING OUT ALL THE SHENANIGANS FROM THE ASIAN AUTO MANUFACTORING!!!!!!!!!

    honda and toyota? KEEP DREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 10:58 AM, noryakerson wrote:

    Chevy Impala--the best car I have ever owned. I know very few disappointed Chevy owners. Here's to hoping Chevy can spin itself free of GM and get a fresh start of its own. An aside--from the writer in me--TUR157, your arguments would have much more sway among adults if you didn't do the all-cap, multiple-exclamation thing. A definitive study found that folks who tend to write like this are hormone-stricken teens or severely disturbed males, that the majority of readers will not even read text like this because it feels like an assault, and that whatever points the writer is trying to make are immediately dismissed by the reader as childish or insane.

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 11:02 AM, noryakerson wrote:

    Chevy Impala--the best car I have ever owned. I know very few disappointed Chevy owners. Here's to hoping Chevy can spin itself free of GM and get a fresh start of its own. An aside--from the writer in me--TUR157, your arguments would have much more sway among adults if you didn't do the all-cap, multiple-exclamation thing. A definitive study found that folks who tend to write like this are hormone-stricken teens or severely disturbed males, that the majority of readers will not even read text like this because it feels like an assault, and that whatever points the writer is trying to make are immediately dismissed by the reader as childish or insane.

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 11:15 AM, 800plus wrote:

    TURI57,

    Actually the real americans are the ones who stick to SUVs and trucks, an American icon.

    This is about making money, not playing the patriot game. If GM is in trouble, it's in trouble. No two ways about it. If the Fool was anti-American, then Ford would get the bash too, right?

    I think you need to step away from your computer, put down your Monster drink, and take a few breaths. Numbers don't lie.

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 11:29 AM, 800plus wrote:

    I think TURI57 is going to have a heart attack. I'm suprised he hasn't played the "terrorist" card (refer to 1950's Communist card).

    GM is black-eyed right now. You say GM, we say bailout. Not good for stock, not at all.

    And you can cry all you want about "asian automobile shenanigans", but the name of the game is sales, and those are selling.

    Now when my sister, a few months back, started buying a car, you can bet that I was miserably bored in the Honda dealership where she was getting her Civic. I wanted to be at the Dodge/Ford/GM dealer looking at some big V8 power. But the fact of the matter is popular opinion, and social economic trends are killing GM. Where's my proof? It's in the two things people bring up when you start talking about American car dealers.

    Gas guzzling and bailout.

    People are stuck on this, and until GM can prove itself to the public, the GENERAL public (not just investors), I don't think we will see a decent come back.

    And all this coming from a US sailor on his 14th month in the sand. (Just in case you were going to call anti-american again.)

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 12:22 PM, JamesBKRlawyer wrote:

    Interesting that Turi57 has so much free time to bleat in all caps about how fabulous GM is now and how people who don't buy their cars are unamerican. I had a client in for a bankruptcy with a modest income from writing blogs that support a particular point of view of the industry that pays her without regard to the truth. How many shills fill these message boards with propaganda? Here's my real American 2 cents: I've owned many GM and Chrysler vehicles as well as a Honda, a Toyota, and a Nissan. The GM car wasnt bad, but it was made in the 70s. I never have had a Japanese car fail on me in any material way at all regardless of mileage and 2 of the 3 were made in the U.S. by American workers. The U.S. cars, particularly the Chryslers, never once made it over 80k miles without constant expensive (and often uncovered) repair. Dodge isn't a brand as much as it is a verb describing what they do with your warranty claims. If, over the last 30 years, we had aggressively trustbusted and made it too expensive with tariffs for cheap imports of good of all kinds to be sold in the U.S. unless they were being made here, the US would continue to dominate the planet with better living standards and a strong and resilient economy. GM was a monopoly to a large extent and this is what happens to monopolies, they get fat, dumb, and happy cause they can.

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 1:14 PM, noryakerson wrote:

    Another interesting case about whether you are pro-America or not. Many of those Asian vehicles--Toyotas, especially--are manufactured in the USA. How many Ford and GM vehicles are still made here? Not many. Most are manufactured in Mexico or Canada. Even my beloved Chevy Impala does more to support the Canadian worker than many Toyotas (almost 20 million built in the USA). Oh, well, the plain and simple truth is that there is no plain and simple truth...

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 1:58 PM, woodekf wrote:

    Please watch the movie "Who killed the electric car".

    GM blew a HUGE chance to practally corner the electric car market because of greed and payoffs !

    It will $)@&&! you off !

    GM deserves everything the get (minus taxpayer $$).

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 8:08 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    noryakerson:

    70% of what Toyota and honda sell in the US are imported.

    90% of what KIA and Hyundai sell here is imported.

    Only 30% of what the domestic auto sell in US is imported and that includes Canada... There are a lot of American made cars in Canada. How many American made cars are there in Korea, Japan and Mexico? google-it!

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 8:11 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    wooddekf: building the electric car when gas was $.40 less then a gallon of water (1980s)wasn't going to make any money.

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 8:19 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    800plus:

    Let me tell you what the "TRUTH" is... GM has increased market share 5 months in a row.

    Ford is doing even better... Toyota and Honda are having some problems with transmissions (honda). Oil sludge in the motor (toyota).

  • Report this Comment On November 20, 2009, at 8:22 PM, TURI57 wrote:

    "Actually the real americans are the ones who stick to SUVs and trucks, an American icon".

    800plus: G.W.B. and his oil buddies took care of that with $4.69gl gas that killed the profitable SUVs market.

  • Report this Comment On November 21, 2009, at 11:24 AM, 800plus wrote:

    Yet I still have my 02 Durango parked back home. And the TRUTH you are talking about is still aimed towards investor preferences, not the general public, who are still rearing back from thos 4.69 oil prices you mentioned. The asian auto market is generally (key word) thought of as more efficient/reliable than the american market. I am not saying I agree with this, I'm just saying that's how it is. Until GM can appeal to a more massive audience of the GENERAL public, not just investors, they can not hope to be where they once were, a complete powerhouse in the auto industry.

  • Report this Comment On November 21, 2009, at 6:32 PM, woodekf wrote:

    TURI57 :

    GM Axed their electric car program (all leased only vehicles) in 1998.

  • Report this Comment On November 21, 2009, at 6:37 PM, woodekf wrote:

    And their customers were screaming to get them back.

    Gm crushed every elect car, except one (that they removed ALL of the internal motor parts) for a museum.

    Can you imagine a car that doesnt use gas, oil, oil filters spark plugs, etc. Is silent goes 85+ mph, doesnt emit smoke.

    Not very profitable for the car and oil companies.

    Axe it ! ! !

  • Report this Comment On November 27, 2009, at 2:35 PM, abiniek wrote:

    First I have to agree with Turi57, because I don't see why most of you are putting down GM since GM has been a great inovator in the car industry, way much more inventions than Toyota , Honda and Nissan combined.

    here are just some of the things that GM introduced first on their vehicles

    airbags

    electric starting

    the modern automatic transmission

    the modern high compression v8

    the catalytic converter

    The power sliding doors which are a standard item on all minivans were first introduced to the market on GM's first gen minivans in 1994.

    and much more

    What are the great automotive inventions that Toyota and Honda gave us, they are just playing it safe and then knocking things off from GM and Ford.

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