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What's Next? Dow 10,000?

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No, I haven't jumped ship since asking "What's next? Dow 5,000?" I'm still pessimistic. Borderline cynical. The financial industry is still an utter mess, despite Citigroup's (NYSE: C  ) illusory insistence that it's profitable. Until the Treasury comes out with a financial plan with a backbone, banks will wallow, and stock indices probably won't be too far behind.

I say "probably" because, honestly, no one has a clue. As Warren Buffett recently wrote to Berkshire Hathaway (NYSE: BRK-A  ) (NYSE: BRK-B  ) shareholders, he and Charlie Munger are "certain ... that the economy will be in shambles throughout 2009 -- and, for that matter, probably well beyond -- but that conclusion does not tell us whether the stock market will rise or fall."

Up, down, sideways, inside out ... no one knows. That's what keeps people intrigued.

Oh, come on!
Just don't tell that to the zillions of market forecasters who took Tuesday's 5.8% rally as a sure sign things have bottomed and turned a corner. "This is one fantastic rally," Jim Cramer said (screamed), "that's not over yet!"

Maybe he's right. I can't blame the enthusiasm. After being thoroughly maimed over the past six months, you take what you can get, regardless of size. I'll remind you that Tuesday's "recovery" rally didn't do much more than erase the Dow's losses since, well, last Tuesday.

That last point got me thinking. When people get fired up over the Dow "exploding" to 7,000, you realize how far the goalpost has been moved. I vividly remember the grief of watching the Dow break below 10,000 just a few months ago. Today, the prospect of Dow 10,000 would feel like winning the lottery. Yesterday's terror is tomorrow's utopia.

Now the numbers
So how much would it take to get back to Dow 10,000? Using 7,000 as a base, here's how long it'd take to get back into five-figure Dow territory under different assumptions:

Compound Annual Return

Years to Hit Dow 10,000

5%

7.4

10%

3.8

15%

2.6

20%

2.0

If we bottomed today and earned a steady 5% per year going forward, we'd be back into Dow 10,000 territory by ... 2016! The beauty of compound returns are devilish when spun in reverse: lose 50%, and you have to gain 100% to get back to par.

Now some good news
Admittedly, after falling as ferociously as we have in such short order (on an equal-time basis, we've fallen as hard as during the Great Depression) the odds that we'll eventually rebound in a big way are better than the odds we'll slowly inch higher. To quote Buffett again, "What is likely ... is that the market will move higher, perhaps substantially so, well before either sentiment or the economy turns up."

In fact, time and time again, the biggest market gains come directly after the biggest busts.

Have a look:

Year

Loss

Gain in Following Year

1932

(20%)

76 %

1937

(34%)

18%

1974

(18%)

39%

2002

(19%)

30%

No one knows when, and no one knows how much, but the trend over history is pretty straightforward: After huge crashes come huge rallies. And while I still think our trajectory is heading toward Dow 5,000, I (a) admittedly don't really have a clue, and (b) will be the first to admit that some incredible bargains can be found in today's market.

For example, take a look at Philip Morris International (NYSE: PM  ) . The cash-cow international tobacco king currently yields well over 6%. Its former parent, Altria Group (NYSE: MO  ) , pays a 7.7% dividend -- a dividend that has been paid for decades. Metal stocks like Alcoa (NYSE: AA  ) and ArcelorMittal (NYSE: MT  ) might have a few abysmal years ahead of them, but they're trading like the world is never going to build anything ever again. Investors are taking current conditions and extrapolating them into infinity, which has never, and will never, make sense.

Bottom line
It's terrible out there. It'll probably get worse before it gets better. But weigh three factors together:

  • Things will get better. We just don't know when.
  • Markets have tanked so quickly that when things do get better, stocks could explode. I mean really. Explode.
  • When they do, we'll look back at today's prices and laugh at ourselves.

Dow 5,000? Dow 10,000? You shouldn't fear or hope for either. Both are out of your control and your prognostic ability. A rational way to look at it is this: One represents opportunity; the other is the outcome of that opportunity.

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Fool contributor Morgan Housel owns shares of Berkshire, Altria, and Philip Morris International. Berkshire Hathaway is a Motley Fool Inside Value and a Motley Fool Stock Advisor pick. The Fool owns shares of Berkshire Hathaway. The Motley Fool is investors writing for investors.


Comments from our Foolish Readers

Help us keep this a respectfully Foolish area! This is a place for our readers to discuss, debate, and learn more about the Foolish investing topic you read about above. Help us keep it clean and safe. If you believe a comment is abusive or otherwise violates our Fool's Rules, please report it via the Report this Comment Report this Comment icon found on every comment.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Rasbold wrote:

    Dow 10K?

    Maybe at the end of the year, if things move real fast. I still feel a major fall for the spring or early summer, give us small investors a chance to build up our positions.

    All tobacco - run. The new taxes will hurt them bad.

    Alcoa - Oh, hell, yes!

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Varchild2008 wrote:

    I got Bullish March 1st because I predicted several economic recovery indicators in my blog. We just got news that February Retail Sales beat expectations by .4% That's half-way in my range of .1 - .8....

    Young Youthlings are spending again at HOTT Topics!

    Even Whirlpool is doing well!

    GOOGLE's G1 phone is selling out like hot cakes.

    But... While I became bullish before just about anyone else has.... March 1st... I believe DOW 8000 will take us all year to achieve. The Christmas Rally will get us there but in the meantime... I think DOW 7500 is our next achievable target for JUNE.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 3:56 PM, babypoop wrote:

    I don't know how long this rally will last, but I do know that this summer will be ugly. GM will be in some sort of bankruptcy and another major bank will fall apart. I got long a few weeks too early, unfortunately, but I'm almost in the black again. If we can kiss 9,000 before May, I'll be getting out and might go short.

    I agree with Roubini. DOW 6,000 by the end of the year.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 4:19 PM, quickweaver wrote:

    @Varchild2008 you say 7500 by June and I think this month (... if not in next week or next day).

    Sentiments change over night and if there can be downsides of 500 points... expecting 330 upside is not expecting too much.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Big50Shooter wrote:

    Babypoop...

    I think Dow 6000 by the end of May!

    Citi isn't really "making money" and neither are th eothers... It's all smoke and mirrors that Obama-lama-ding-dong has them playing to encourage all of us to "feel better"...

    Don't get me wrong, I LIKE to feel good, but I'm just waiting for the inflation to take hold....

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 5:13 PM, chantillydude wrote:

    This is a classic bear rally. Bring forth the pigs to be slaughtered.

    Prediction: It lasts until April 14th then the hedgies and banks repair their balance sheets by massively selling off and leaving pig carcasses everywhere. The value of stocks is based on the supply and demand for stocks. Speculative demand has been encouraged. It will soon change direction.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 5:20 PM, ds10 wrote:

    You write:

    " The beauty of compound returns are devilish when spun in reverse: lose 50%, and you have to gain 100% to get back to par. "

    Don't make 3rd grade math sound difficult. This has

    nothing to do with "compound returns".

    Let's say something ( a stock) is priced at $100. If you lose 50% of it, its price is $50.

    How much do you need to get back to $100?

    You need $50. And 100% of $50 is $50.

    Simple: 50% down, you need 100% to get back up.

    And nothing to do with "compounding".

    Ask your 9 year old child next time you need

    help with arithmetic.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 5:20 PM, jim1936g wrote:

    Now follow this sequence:

    Day 1 (Monday) - Ben Bernanke has a smile during his entire Q&A with capitol hill.

    Day 2 (Tuesday) - Citigroup says Jan and Feb were profitable. When was the last time a bank reported monthly profits?

    Day 3 (Wednesday) SEC Chairperson says that the uptick rule is under discussion. Jamie Dimond says JPM was profitable in Jan & Feb. Also Warren Buffett was all over financial TV.

    Day 4 (Thurs.- today) Lewis of B & A says they were profitable in Jan and Feb. Also there was talk in Congress of doing away with "Mark to Market".

    Day 5 (Friday) I predict Wells fargo will announce that they were profitable in Jan and Feb.

    Aren't all of the individuals mentioned FOBs (friends of Barack)? Aren't all reasons for the strong market advance so far this week? Maybe Barack really does look at the stock market? Maybe he asked for FOBs to help him out? Maybe Rahm did the planning?

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Tinka82 wrote:

    Actually, the profitability in January and February was likely due to the mini refi boom that took place when the interest rates did thier last drop. I'm an appraiser, and can tell you that refis are about flat right now. That profitability reporting won't hold for the next quarter. I'm also getting a flurry of repo appraisal requests and I'm in a market that has thus far been not hit by severe declines.

    My bets would be we're in for more downward.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 6:11 PM, teejk wrote:

    ...maybe a sucker's rally going on...but don't ignore the fact that so many companies are using the down-turn as an excuse to "right-size" their cost structures (a "what more can the market do to my share price?" mentality)...why big companies don't continually assess that when times are good is a big question...crappy management I guess but unfortunately all out of the same business schools.

    when things do turn, good companies' earnings are going to soar...at least until they get fat again (and then we repeat the process).

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, IIcx wrote:

    Great article Morgan and I apologize for giving you a hard time about the Citi article.

    Everyone was in such a complete downdraft of pessimism, the media was pouring gas on the angst, the politicians were jawboning the cameras like schoolgirls on a prom date, and you decided to spin a positive.

    I‘m an old fart Dad, when the kids get out of control they enjoy some time in the quiet corner. I’ll take my on advice in the future.

    I completely understand your frustration. I came back to an online trading account to reclaim my 401k losses.

    Let's face it; any 3 year old makes a nice profit in the major swings from top to bottom and bottom to top. We don't need a broker in the bad times to short a stock to the bottom or a broker to tell us where the buys are looking up to a nice retirement. We do need to draw dividends to pay the Hydrogen delivery person down the road and a 201k isn't going to do that for us.

    Like you, I didn't expect to find a 201k after investing all these years.

    If you're looking for start or end points for our country, you'll see positive earns in 6-9 months from the Banks, positive growth at the end of the year, and an explosion of innovation from the Small Caps who finally got a chance to hire amazing talent or from the talent that's currently launching small caps.

    If you're looking for sin stocks to retire on, better take a second look. As soon as this starts to swing, the Politicians will be all over MO mugging like schoolgirls on a prom date and beating the companies into chapter 13.

    Best, IIcx

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 6:32 PM, bagh1 wrote:

    Man, you fool.com guys don't have a freakin clue! All the time the market was going down, you have been recommending this stock and that stock! CX anyone? Went from 40 bucks to 5! All the while you kept recommending it saying we are gonna load up on it due to its tremendous upside.

  • Report this Comment On March 12, 2009, at 8:18 PM, Dart65GTConv wrote:

    If the dow goes to ten, I will have left at nine!

  • Report this Comment On March 13, 2009, at 3:30 PM, investusgregory wrote:

    Bernard Madoff is going to jail because he lost his sense of sopihiscation. He knew the inside workings of the market and may have figured that his Ponzi scheme was something close to it.

    When the market rises above its true valuation the margin between the base of value and peak of price is a Ponzi pyramid. In this space speculators roll the dice in the market casino.

    John Kemp illustated in his article posted on Reuters that share prices were driven out of aligment with growth in GDP over the past 10 years. At current levels is is closer to alignment but still out.

    So, if you are a big time gambler and enjoy the thrill of winning and losing money, the stock market is the place to be!

    I prefer betting a few Quid on horses, it gives the same experience but with much less risk.

    The Dow and FTSE are in my opinion valuable at 5000 and 3000 but as you say if you know the economy and business world there are always good investments even in recession and falling markets.

    I like the name of your website because gambling is a Fool's game.

  • Report this Comment On March 15, 2009, at 3:10 PM, dickiefrank wrote:

    Dow will hit 5500 (NASDAQ 1100, S&P 550) by the end of Summer as gas prices continue go up from the Spring/Memorial Day gouging...Dow will be at 5000 (NASDAQ 1000, S&P 500) until a brief Christmas Season spurt in retail spending. Remember, the are still a great many Commercial Real Estate balloon payments coming due soon and they will be for the over assessed values...many businesses will move to the now lower cost/lower assessed Commercial units that were built during this last bubble and have taken the write-downs. The blood letting will continue until early-mid 2010 led by Commercail Real Estate and the swan song of some of these banks...

  • Report this Comment On March 15, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Gardnermiles wrote:

    I believe it's all just a big game for the money boys. With all the ups and downs I don't think any P.A. or the I.R. S. could figure out if the year was a gain or a loss. As long as the fat cats live high on the hog we the investors will only eeak out meager returns. I am sure with all the buying and selling there is a large amount received in commissions by the brokers. They probably are winning either way. It's always the little guy that ends up losing. I really wonder when the greedy, the unscupulous, and unethical are going to let us make some financial gains and have a profitable portfolio.

  • Report this Comment On March 16, 2009, at 6:52 AM, xetn wrote:

    Is this the Motley Fool or the Warren Buffett cheering section. Almost every article I read on this site cites Buffett. Is there no independent thinking here or just attempts to sell other investment subscriptions?

  • Report this Comment On March 21, 2009, at 8:25 AM, lg71050 wrote:

    Is this the Motley Fool or the Nouriel Roubini cheering section. Almost every article I read on this site cites Roubini. Is there no independent thinking here or just attempts to sell other investment subscriptions?

  • Report this Comment On March 26, 2009, at 6:08 PM, chemdude47 wrote:

    Some have written that we should avoid tobacco stocks because the new taxes will hurt them bad. Seems I have heard this before, when previous "new taxes" on smokes were imposed. Uh, how bad were tobacco stocks hurt then? Perhaps this time is different? If so, then in what way(s)?

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