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Should Carbon Dioxide Be Banned?

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It began, as these things so often do, with a single inflammatory line on the front page of The Wall Street Journal: "The Obama administration is expected as early as Monday to formally declare carbon dioxide a dangerous pollutant."

The Journal eventually conceded that Obama does not really intend to tax every breath you take (apologies to Sting). Working through the Environmental Protection Agency and the Clean Air Act, the administration really only wants to regulate annual emitters of 25,000 tons or more of CO2. Regardless, the damage had been done -- and industry PR flacks were off to the races!

The American Petroleum Institute, populated by refiners such as Valero (NYSE: VLO  ) , ExxonMobil (NYSE: XOM  ) , and Chevron (NYSE: CVX  ) , has warned that regulation could have a "devastating impact" on their industry, forcing them to shift refining to unregulated locations offshore, worsening the U.S. trade imbalance as we begin importing higher value-added petro-products. They also believe "climate legislation should not come at the expense of U.S. economic and energy security.

On the other side of the ocean, steel industry association Eurofer worries that carbon regulation in Europe, combined with subsidies for "green" efforts in the developing world, could translate into subsidizing the competition for steel companies like Eurofer member ArcelorMittal (NYSE: MT  ) . I imagine U.S. analogs U.S. Steel (NYSE: X  ) , AK Steel (NYSE: AKS  ) , and Nucor (NYSE: NUE  ) have similar concerns.

Like a dog with a new bone, Fool writers and editors also quickly rose to the bait, and began to debate. Let's listen in:

Rich Duprey: I guess if the EPA was only "asking" so-called polluters to pollute less, it might not be as egregious. But it's not asking. It's forcing businesses to comply with onerous regulations that will place them at a competitive disadvantage to companies elsewhere in the world. It's also only a first step to broad regulations that will impact virtually all U.S. businesses, not to mention individuals, and may in fact be based upon faulty science. So it seems pretty unreasonable to me all the way around.

Brian Richards: Asking large polluters to pollute less? Seems reasonable to me, actually. The bigger issue is that the EPA is circumventing the legislative process, which is shady.

Brian Bauer: The administration believes the EPA already has authority under existing law to regulate carbon emissions and environmental health hazards, and if so, it isn't circumventing the legislative process.

Tom Cadorette: In 2007, the Supreme Court tacitly acknowledged that the EPA could regulate greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean Air Act, by ruling that CO2 and other greenhouse gases were pollutants. The Court then required the EPA to determine whether they were pollutants that actually posed a danger to public health and welfare before they could regulate them. No circumvention here.

David Williamson: According to a BBC World Service / Globe Scan poll that came out this week, the majority of Americans and the world want this issue tackled. In the U.S., 74% of Americans find climate change either a very serious or somewhat serious issue ... Even more, a full 52% of Americans support government investment to address climate change even if it hurts our economy.

Alex Dumortier: Unfortunately, global warming has become a religious issue. I don't say the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis is false -- but many of its proponents treat the hypothesis -- and more importantly, the magnitude of its impact -- as received truth. As far as polls of the American people go (or any other people, for that matter), they tell us nothing about what we should or shouldn't do about global warming, since virtually all of the people that are polled are completely ignorant regarding anything that relates to global warming.

Chime in
Alex Dumortier's not alone in that opinion. The Fool recently played host to SuperFreakonomics co-author Stephen Dubner, who suggests that we could basically cancel out the effects of global warming by using hoses and helium balloons (Balloon Boy not included), floating them up into the atmosphere, and piping sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere -- all at a cost of less than $140 million.

So good news/bad news: The new regulation's not quite as draconian as the Journal made it sound initially -- but that doesn't necessarily mean it's good policy. You've heard what Fools have to say. Now it's your turn to take over the debate. Scroll down, and let us know what you think.

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Fool contributor Rich Smith does not own shares of any company named above. The Motley Fool has a disclosure policy.


Comments from our Foolish Readers

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  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 2:53 PM, golfer121501 wrote:

    This is just another example of the obama administration's complete incompetency. Carbon Dioxide is an essential gas to the environment. It is plant food. Last time I checked we kinda need plants around. The audacity to even think of implying that carbon dioxide is a pollutant is ludicrous. Wake up people: this is just another way for the government to try and control EVERY aspect of your life. The government does not give a darn about the environment, they want your money and for you to be completely DEPENDENT on them for everything. Classifying CO2 a pollutant will make the oil companies very uncompetitive in the US. Guess what that means, more jobs lost over seas. Oh and finding ways to make it near impossible to use oil is nice by-product for the enviro-weenies that have some people convinced that we will all die in a few years unless we never touch another petroleum product again. This is ridiculous!

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Astatist wrote:

    David Williamson is smoking. Most americans could give a rats a-- about climate change. They have smartened up that it is a scam to tax as most left proposals are. Al Gore is the only one on board.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 3:39 PM, savvyelrod wrote:

    My problem with climate change proponents is the lack of real debate on this subject. Almost without exception, we the public are expetced to join hands with Al Gore and nod our heads in agreement. The standard lines are " the vast majority of scientist agree with global warming being mans fault" - " there is no doubt about CO2 causing global warming" and several more standard lines. Here is what I want, real debate, live in front of, we the people, stand Al and his buddies up in front of the world live and have real debate with experts whom call this global warming a hoax and let us common folks make the call. I have so many questions to ask both sides, we have solid historic evidence of huge volcanos burping so much ash and CO2 into the air, the weather cooled over night and lasted a couple of decades, ya 20 years of up to 10 degrees F cooler than right now almost overnight. The earth has been for the last several hundred thousand years more often a snow ball in the north and south hems. Just how does the rewarming happen. I have a hundred unanwsered questions I would like both sides to anwser right out in front of the world. Nobody will convince me there is been a factual determination about mans CO2 emisssions without a open debate so I can use my own judgement to hear the opinions and decide. As an end note for those that think a majority of folks cannot be wrong look up the Dred Scott, Supreme Court Case. The US Supreme Court ruled by a vast majority, slavery is legal and right and all blacks could never become US citizans. This happened in 1857 long after the civil war. In 1787 the constitutional convention writes, "states shall decide if women are allowed to vote", all states except New Jersey decide women can no longer vote. Yup thats right all states except New Jersey are in agreement, there is no doubt, women can not vote. Pretty big majority in agreement, these folks had no doubt they were right. This is where I sit, majority be dammed, lets hear the debate and we will make up our own mind.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 4:29 PM, kkconway wrote:

    "Williamson", hmm, sounds British. Regardless, you are genuflecting in the direction of East Anglia, where the scientists share email fantasies about whopping AGW skeptics upside the head, they are sooo disinterested in the outcome of their research. David, anybody who stoops so low as to cite obviously skewed polls of citizens is scraping the bottom of the argument barrel. If you asked OC single women in 2008, you may have had a majority. Never will you find data from 2009 showing Americans who want to "hurt our economy" to save us from the scourge of CO2!! LOL. Don't bore me with green jobs, either. You can't replace economically viable jobs with WPA style, money losing, make-work, green jobs. Billions for research, not one penny in tribute! 54/40 or Fight! Remember the Alamo! (Place your tagline for saving the planet from dogmatic green whack jobs here.)

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 4:38 PM, outoffocus wrote:

    If CO2 is banned then I can only breath in. I can't breath out.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 4:54 PM, MaxTheTerrible wrote:

    Banning CO2 - what a great idea! I also propose we start including CO2 produced by human breathing into green house emissions and impose a sports tax on athletes for exhaling more CO2.

    In all seriousness though, Alex is right to point out that the global warming issue has become a religion of sorts and because of what all these polls don't mean a thing.

    There so many very simple unanswered questions in the global warming debate that it's seems just wrong that we are jumping to conclusions and more importantly make serious economic decisions based on some computer simulations.

    For instance, why do we worry about Greenland ice melting. Isn't Greenland supposed to be green?

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 5:15 PM, zorro11 wrote:

    So you all believe global warming is a hoax. I hope your offspring enjoy roasting in hades with Rush, Glen, Michelle B, Michell M and the rest of those too clever purveyors of mush that defies reality.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 5:17 PM, dawgnine wrote:

    Follow the money to Al Gore and his accomplishes to see the green!

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Maui808Gal wrote:

    If we enforce strict regualtions, it should cause creativity and innovation..and new businesses with wide moats until the rest of the industry catches up.

    Is it possible that this company has the answer for not only helping the companies mentioned above (and others) to meet the new regulations set, but also make some early investors wealthy in the process CABN (OTC) ?

    From Carbon Sciences-

    CEO Byron Elton declares company’s CO2 to Fuel process as “most powerful, sustainable fuel technology in the world”.

    Santa Barbara, CA - December 9, 2009 - Carbon Sciences, Inc. (CABN), the developer of a breakthrough technology to recycle carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions into gasoline and other portable fuels, reported today that Domestic Fuel published an interview with the company’s CEO exploring the benefits of carbon dioxide recycling (CCR) technology and its implications on the world’s energy and climate challenges.

    As world leaders began talks on climate change at the United Nations Summit in Copenhagen, Denmark, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) released its long-awaited finding declaring carbon dioxide (CO2) a dangerous pollutant that must be regulated. Carbon Sciences’ CEO, Byron Elton, says, “while excess carbon dioxide presents a harmful climate problem, it also provides the solution to our energy concerns. With the CO2-to-Fuel technology that we are developing, CO2 emissions can be recycled into a virtually unlimited supply of fuel.”

    As Elton noted last week on Domestic Fuel Cast (www.DomesticFuel.com), a popular podcast series that reports on domestic fuel alternatives, “this particular technology is the most powerful and sustainable fuel technology that's being developed in the world today . . . because it's the most direct path from CO2 to fuel." To hear the podcast, visit the following link: http://tr.im/GUfZ

    Elton says the company’s technology will be the solution needed to quell the fears of global carbon emitters facing tightening emissions regulations. “The EPA has already proposed regulating greenhouse gas emissions from new power plants, oil refineries and factories emitting more than 25,000 tons of carbon dioxide a year,” said Elton. “The latest news from the EPA resonates globally and may have a profound impact on the outcome of climate negotiations. More importantly, it increases the focus on the dangers of CO2 as well as the options available to control it, and now, to use it to our advantage so it’s no longer a wasted resource.”

    ..."the minimal level of energy needed to complete this process is what distinguishes Carbon Sciences’ approach from past attempts to convert CO2 into fuel." Another compelling advantage is the type of fuel being produced. “If you think about all the different approaches being used to address these significant challenges, it [CO2-to-fuel] is the only one that has a resulting product that can be used in the existing infrastructure, vehicles and supply chain. The fuel that we're making is the fuel we're using right now,” added Elton.

    Carbon Sciences Inc. is developing a breakthrough technology to recycle carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from fossil fuel power plants into the basic fuel building blocks required to produce gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel and other fuels.

    IS THIS COMAPNY REAL?

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 5:35 PM, kkconway wrote:

    CABN is probably good for a CAPS, pump and dump, short sale play, but after reading jehargro's post (above), I would add more real money into SQM, the big Chilean lithium mining concern, because I just found them a new customer. Jehargro -- take your meds, man!! All you other green dead enders, get over it. CO2 is a hoax, and if not, I like the cures that cost one tenth of the Goristas are pushing, like the one in Super Freakonomics, or the Danish guy, whatshisname in the Wall Street Journal all the time.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 5:38 PM, seryyvolk wrote:

    I think that it is a good idea to ban Carbon Dioxide (CO2) and Oxygen Dihydride (H2O) as well.

    Many people die every year because they try to breathe H20. We should eliminate the cause of this senseless loss.

    With the elimination of H2O and CO2, green plants and the animals that depend on them will quickly be eliminated. Perhaps anaerobic fungi will take the place in the environmental niche. Fungus is good. I think that we should all become fungitarians.

    It will take a bit longer to eliminate the Oxygen Dihydride in the rivers, lakes and oceans, but if we all make the sacrifice, we can accomplish it. Without drinking Oaygen Dihydride, perhaps we will urinate less.

    People are the real complainers (whiners) and eliminating them (us) will allow the planet to recover.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 5:41 PM, dcanon09 wrote:

    I'm going to cut down a tree in response to this article, and to David Williamson's blurb in particular.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:00 PM, wayne196 wrote:

    I'm one of the "man-made global warming" skeptics. Around the year 1000, the Vikings found grapes growing in Newfoundland and they grew barley in Greenland. Neither are possible today because the earth is a lot cooler than it was then. The oceans were not significantly higher than today either. Since there have been climate changes that are not man-made, why all the hype and money draining efforts to stop a warming that is part of the natural schedule of the earth's climate through the millennia.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:07 PM, Turfscape wrote:

    golfer121501 wrote:

    "Carbon Dioxide is an essential gas to the environment. It is plant food. Last time I checked we kinda need plants around. The audacity to even think of implying that carbon dioxide is a pollutant is ludicrous."

    Ummm, yeah...Ammonia is vital to plant health, too. Doesn't mean I want a factory dumping 1.2 million cubic tons of it into my breathing space. Most people didn't complain when ammonia based fertilizers become more regulated in the wake of Oklahoma City....you probably didn't stand up and shout and the government about how nobody can pee anymore when those regs were passed (ammonia-based fertilizers being comprised of urea ammonium).

    Maybe, juuuusssst maybe, folks are being a LITTLE bit reactionary in here? Hmm? Maybe, you think?

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:10 PM, brooksart wrote:

    This is about coal. Should we all ignore the fact that we

    have a 200 year supply in the US. That certainly makes

    us less dependent on foreign oil. The technology exists to burn coal cleanly. We should do it and the hell with the Sierra Club and the rest of it's green followers

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Turfscape wrote:

    a

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:16 PM, Turfscape wrote:

    brooksart wrote:

    "The technology exists to burn coal cleanly"

    We have the technology to burn coal with fewer emissions than in the past

    DOES NOT EQUAL

    The technology exists to burn coal cleanly

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:43 PM, wilsonced wrote:

    I think that since Carbon Dioxide is a waste product from the human body, our Congress next has to consider a Fecal Recovery Fee (we wouldn't call it a tax because Obama has promised not to raise taxes on the middle class). I am sure several members of Congress would object to being heavily taxed on a product they produce so much of, but, on the other hand, Barney Frank probably wouldn't object too much since his is continuously pushed back in!

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:44 PM, Fool wrote:

    since I live in calif enviro waco state listen up fools our goverment is up too the old bait and switch its always about the money.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Fool wrote:

    FYI: Dred Scott died on September 17, 1858. Which was before the Civil War, which started on April 12, 1861.

    I think he should have been freed, but it wasn't long after the Civil War.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Scaooba wrote:

    FYI: Dred Scott died on September 17, 1858. Which was before the Civil War, which started on April 12, 1861.

    Not that it really matters, just looked up the case as savvyelrod suggested.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Fool wrote:

    v

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 7:28 PM, dauvis wrote:

    "we could basically cancel out the effects of global warming by using hoses and helium balloons (Balloon Boy not included), floating them up into the atmosphere, and piping sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere"

    My chemistry is a bit rusty... but isn't sulfur dioxide a component of acid rain?

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 7:42 PM, xetn wrote:

    It would be better for the environment if we mandated that all politicians stop breathing. That would eliminate the largest source of CO2. The INTENDED consequence of that mandate would be a lot smaller, cheaper, less intrusive government.

    Seriously, all the government intervention (over 7000 pages of it) is the main reason American jobs are being exported offshore. Everybody seems to want to stop this, but do not want to lower the cost of doing business. As of March 2005, it was estimated that the cost of compliance with government regulations was over $1.4 Trillion per year or $4680 for every man, woman and child in the US. Read the report here:

    http://mwhodges.home.att.net/regulation_a.htm

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 7:42 PM, Fool wrote:

    I dont know how to put this delicately but I thought cow "emissions" were responsible for the production of more CO2 than all of mans effects on the environment. It follows then that rather than make the US poor and hope to replace our national wealth with Green products, services, and jobs, we just all go REALLY green and go VEGGIE!

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 8:21 PM, jaybaybay wrote:

    Please note: the existence of Methane (CH4) is four times the concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere, making it the worst greenhouse gas. Methane is the real problem, not CO2. Please look it up if you don't believe... for we should all be researching facts that we hear. What's sad is most people probably didn't know this and they should. While you are researching this fact, also research major shareholders of GE, one of them is Al Gore along with other politicians. Think of all the money they would stand to make if they passed this bill.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 10:32 PM, savvyelrod wrote:

    My mistake with the Dred Scott case timing, you are right about this case being before the civil war. My point in writing remains the same. Citing your point of view or opinion and requiring others to agree just because you believe the majority agree with you is lame at best. History is chock full of majority opinions that simply turned out to be dead wrong. Get your facts together and meet the dessenting folks and debate your point of view in the open. If I were advancing the global warming idea I would be happy to meet all dessenters at every possible chance. Global warming or man made climate change is simply an opinion. It may well turn out to be a fact or may well be fiction. We need a lot more open debate on this subject.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 10:41 PM, laughtrack wrote:

    You people need to get an education. Please!

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 11:13 PM, lrecap wrote:

    It is discouraging to see many individuals talk about something they know absolutely nothing about - - including the highly biased MSM. As a atmospheric mico-physics individual, it is rather easy to see that the earth "energy" cycle is quite complex. However the primary control of global heat movement is the "water cycle" from evaporation, transportation, precipitation, etc which far surpasses any modification of the earth energy cycle that man is able to do - - even at his egotistical greatest. It is one thing to be concerned about "clean" energy and quite another to say that we are modifying the climate (not too many years ago we were claiming we were claiming to be "cooling" the earth). This myth is only being used by the federal government to further control a growing share of the GDP - - really does not care how it is done, but as with health care and other bills, only objective is GDP control -- If you do not know where that heads, you need to read something besides the MSM (and look around you at other countries). There are many books out there that will give more rational background to this myth, Climate Confusion is one that most people should be able to follow. BTW, you will not get open debate via the government nor the MSM - - you must look elsewhere. lre

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 11:25 PM, predfern wrote:

    Before we cause the world economy to implode in our rush to reduce our carbon footprint, it is instructive to look at the science behind global warming. Climate models, which can't adequately deal with such naturally occurring cycles as El Nino and the Pacific and Atlantic multidecadal oscillations, could not reproduce the warming between 1978 and 1998, so the "scientists" leaped to the conclusion that manmade co2 was the culprit via a positive feedback mechanism which amplified the warming. When this was programmed into their computers using a climate sensitivity based on highly uncertain clues from the geologic record, the models grossly overestimated the warming, so they used the effect of particulates - which has a huge uncertainty - as a lever to arbitrarily cancel out most of the effect of co2. This abandons scientific logic and makes intelligent design look rigorous by comparison. The Early Faint Sun Paradox 2.5 billion years ago was resolved by a negative feedback involving cirrus clouds, not a positive feedback, and recent studies using satellite data show a small climate sensitivity and negative feedback. A mathematician has pointed out that climate models contain more than two dozen non-linear differential equations, and long term predictions are meaningless because the solutions can be unstable which causes small initial variations to lead to large variations later on. For most of the last 500 million years the co2 in the atmosphere has been much higher than now and yet the climate was remarkably stable.

  • Report this Comment On December 09, 2009, at 11:46 PM, rfaramir wrote:

    Believing they have the authority to regulate producers of 25,000 tons of CO2, means they believe they can control the breathing out of every one of us; they just haven't, yet.

    Quantity doesn't matter, the principle does. The beliefs of this administration make them very dangerous.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 12:53 AM, roamabit wrote:

    To Zorro11:

    Please show me the science.

    Earth has had temperature fluctuations which resulted in warming periods and ice-ages for several thousand (or million) years prior to fossil-fuel burning humanity's arrival on the scene. Atmospheric carbon dioxide has probably been around as long or longer.

    Contrary to what the propagandists favoring human-caused "climate change" would have us believe, a significant number of qualified (but politically muzzled)scientists do not buy into Al Gore's scenario regarding humanity's influence on climatic warming or cooling.

    How can carbon dioxide originating from our oceans, volcanos, night-time respiring vegetation and from most higher-order life-forms be controlled, reduced, or eliminated? Only scam artists and EPA charlatans would declare a naturally-occurring, essential substance to be "pollutants."

    Because the Supreme Court "rules it," erroneous conclusions do not become the truth. If that were the case, I wish the S.C. would rule that poverty, illness, delusional non-scientists and self-serving politicians to be the universal pollutants they are so they could be rationally regulated into non-existence.

    Rush, Glen and 2 "Michelles?" What's that all about?

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 1:14 AM, roamabit wrote:

    Mr. Richards, Mr. Bauer, Mr. Cadorette, and Mr. Williamson:

    Congratulations!

    Your comments above have confirmed that I was correct in requesting that my subscription to TMF not be automatically renewed at the end of my current subscription.

    I would hope your knowledge of sound investment alternatives is better than your grasp of science, the scientific method or the proper limits of the "rulings" of the Supreme Court. No matter how esteemed the institution of the S.C., they cannot rule that falsehoods are truth or vice-versa.

    Separation of politics from science has as much or more merit than separation of church and state.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 1:31 AM, cordwood wrote:

    Williamson,your quoting a BBC poll confuses facts w/ an agenda to create/perpetuate a myth.Herr Goebels was an advocate of the same distortion in an attempt to create a myth to the point that it became the "truth".

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 1:53 AM, JackBileDuct wrote:

    So plant food is a pollutant. Plant food... Plants use it so they must be bad as well. Best start eliminating all the plants or better yet tax them as well.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 2:32 AM, NotAnotherTrader wrote:

    The thing is that we're going to constraint our industries in the US, and we usually enforce our laws. On the other hand, China and India (Russia and Brazil too) are more prone to corruption in my opinion.

    I seriously doubt they're going to stick to their "voluntary" promises of regulating their industrial polluters. That, and I'm afraid to say this, is what George Bush got right, by shunning the Kyoto agreements.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 3:24 AM, Clint35 wrote:

    Oh c'mon now we're just being silly. George Bush didn't get anything right.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 8:21 AM, RustyShackelford wrote:

    I am going to purposely buy a hat today. Why? So I can come back to my screen , put it on and then take my hat of to Mr. Demorier. Finally someone with big enough mid-body area enclosed in skin round fleshy items to talk truth as truth needs to be talked. Mother (or politically correct) IT NATURE has been in charge of this planet for quite a while and when Nature wants to rain on one side of the street and not the other, IT will do so no mater what some Garden Slug brain in Oslo says or does. If IT wants to have snow and record cold on the very day of Al Bore's speech in Boston regarding how bad the GW (now called Climate Change--gee that's original) is , IT will do it. Because IT is an off spring of the GREATEST COMEDIAN I have ever known--named GOD..

    Appearing everywhere , everyday , except where He should be allowed to appear.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 9:24 AM, XMFHoopz wrote:

    Hi roamabit,

    My comment quoted in the article is an observation of how the current administration views this, not my personal point of view.

    I tend to lay low in online discussions of politics, as emotional response is generally high and the signal-to-noise ratio is usually low.

    -Brian B. (TMFHoopz)

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 9:34 AM, catoismymotor wrote:

    I say we tax joggers, cross country runners, tri athletes, politicians and the IOC since they breathe to excess or promote aerobic activity which produces greater quanitities of CO2.

    This is all just stooped!

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Turfscape wrote:

    Hey...how many people do you think we can get to make the same comment about "how 'bout the government make it illegal to exhale"? It's just so clever and funny, every single time. The wisdom of such a comment is astounding! So simple, yet so profound...

    ...wait, all those adjectives mean "asinine", right? Cause that's what I was going for...

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 10:48 AM, cerech wrote:

    CO2 as a polluntant makes no sciwntific sense, it is a political statement to match the current administration's political agenda and to ensure staff growth in the EPA and their allied supporters.

    My biggest issue with the current climate change debate is that the raw data has not been audited and the statistical methodologies properly vetted. An offer was made by the National Academy of Sciences to do this and was summarily rejected.

    What should be a scientific debate has morphed into poliotical gamesmanship.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 12:22 PM, hddad8080 wrote:

    I have read all the above comments (as ludicrous as some were and as factual as others were,) I noted that no one really addressed (unless I missed it) the effects of natural atmospheric pollution (volcanoes ) and it's skewing of the so called scientific facts. Make no mistake, that today's "Scientific explorations are based on money (grants, political, funding, etc,.) and not on what was used to be considered as "pure" science. You can rest assured that any so called "scientific facts" that are in any way generated by any government agency (medical, financial, political,etc) will support the agenda of that agency. As far as Al Gore is concerned, having talked with him long ago, I wouldn't buy a used car from him.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Celtics17 wrote:

    3000+ scandalous emails at the CRU. Cap-and-tax is dead, American voters don't want it, and ObaMarx is ramming it down our throats through the EPA. Chicago bully politics at its worst.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Keal7 wrote:

    Thanks Rich Smith for setting the crazies off tongue in cheek. Obie, Barry, or ObaMarx has not even done or proposed anything yet neither does he make laws and the anger, whining, and hate has aleady set off. Without an economy our survival is challenged both ways - either by the environment or by our finances. Did anyone know that offshore drilling was quietly approved in Alaska this month?

    As a pragmatist, Obama would never sacrifice this country's economy for the environment just as he did not sacifice defeating terrorist and keeping us safe to satisfy his left flanks desire for more peaceful approach that spends less. I guess folks hate Obama fo rtheir own different personal reasons (even though he makes no laws) or because of the poisoned media they feed on.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Keal7 wrote:

    Thanks Rich Smith for setting the crazies off tongue in cheek. Obie, Barry, or ObaMarx has not even done or proposed anything yet neither does he make laws and the anger, whining, and hate has aleady set off. Without an economy our survival is challenged both ways - either by the environment or by our finances. Did anyone know that offshore drilling was quietly approved in Alaska this month?

    As a pragmatist, Obama would never sacrifice this country's economy for the environment just as he did not sacifice defeating terrorist and keeping us safe to satisfy his left flanks desire for more peaceful approach that spends less. I guess folks hate Obama fo rtheir own different personal reasons (even though he makes no laws) or because of the poisoned media they feed on.

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 6:13 PM, 2beewise wrote:

    On December 09, 2009, at 3:39 PM,

    savvyelrod wrote:

    ".......questions I would like both sides to anwser right out in front of the world. Nobody will convince me there is been a factual determination about mans CO2 emisssions without a open debate......."

    A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures.

    The survey, conducted among researchers listed in the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments*, "found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role". The biggest doubters were petroleum geologists (47 percent) The only surprise there is that the majority ,53% of petroleum geologists also recognize the real causes of global warming. What more do we need? It's hard to get that percentage of doctors to agree on what the cause of "the problem" is!

  • Report this Comment On December 10, 2009, at 6:53 PM, blesto wrote:

    On behalf of all plant life on the planet, we propose an Oxygen cap and trade plan. We as plants want more Carbon Dyoxide and to much Oxygen in the atmosphere is detrimental to our well being as plants.

    OK, yeah I believe in global warming. Its been happening ever since the last ice age. I just think there has been to much irrational exuburance with trying to control the climate with legislation and taxes.

    The earth has been going in cycles for eons, and there is little we can do to stop it.

    The focus should be how best to cope with it.

    I also believe in peak oil and that we need to ween ourselve off it. If that also makes the air cleaner, then so much the better.

    Its not just the CO2, its all the carcinogens and ozone that makes our air dangerous to breath in many places.

    We need an energy revolution, but lets do it the American way with investments in entrepenourship(sp?) and innovation.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 11:40 AM, Keal7 wrote:

    "The earth has been going in cycles for eons, and there is little we can do to stop it.

    The focus should be how best to cope with it."

    I havent seen any proposal out there trying to stop the earth from going in cycles for eons or even trying to stop global warming. All I hear is reduction, reduction, and coping with it to slow it down enough that environmental change does not occur too fast to be catastrophic. I also believe the cap and trade as opposed to carbon tax (the two competing methods to deal with it) is devised to spur investment (in more carbon efficient means of producing the same equivalent amount of energy) and innovation that is rewarded by the trade. But then most people make up their minds before understanding legislation.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 1:22 PM, SnapDave wrote:

    In answer to the title: NO.

    +1 to Alex

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 1:25 PM, SnapDave wrote:

    Hey, the sidebar gave me an idea. The next daily walk of shame, global warming pushers.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 2:04 PM, dsnbuild wrote:

    Does this mean that Obama will finally shut his mouth? Or is he exempt from this idiotic proposal?

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 4:20 PM, tramming wrote:

    Why are we so concerned with a gas that is 1/3 of a percent of the composition of air? We should be more concerned with other pollutants in the air. The focus on carbon dioxide as the biggest problem we are facing environmentally is only driven by the media and scientists that want to keep their funding.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 4:27 PM, duhsciple wrote:

    Scientifically and historically, what is the all-time high, all-time low, and average in parts-per-million of CO2 in the atmosphere?

    What is the current PPM of CO2?

    Please leave your ideology aside and look at the evidence.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, lh100 wrote:

    This kind of discussions always brings people with a huge bias. I know this is an investment community and the focus is financial, but how is " we will lose our jobs" or " Obama is a socialist" related to this topic ? (those were not actual quotes, but close) The US is the leader(for now) of this world, obviously your policy will affect everybody. The competive advantage of NOT having regulations regarding CO2 emissions is real, but non-existent if everybody have them. China is actually offering more than the US when it comes down to reductions target! Yes, emerging countries need to be in this regulation, and i guess that is the real problem to accepting this example of regulation. As for the debate on the real impact humans have on climate changes, i am no expert and probably 1% of the community actually have the knowledge to decipher all the crap both sides are shooting at us.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 8:09 PM, SnapDave wrote:

    lh100

    If you can't see how "we will lose our jobs" is related to this, I can't help you. If it were not for loss of business and jobs (not to mention wasted capital) no one would object.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Swimpro wrote:

    It seems that a lot of people have simply forgotten the general science they took in high school and junior high. Maybe, they just didn't take any science though, the way schools are being run today. But in any case, it sure seems easy for socialistic politicions to simply "pull the wool over their eyes" and bilk the world out of billions of dollars in the name of science.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 8:33 PM, foolhardy2009 wrote:

    This is a liberal dream that will fade. There is no power greater then the power of the free market. Once this starts hitting our pocket books we will turn it around. The oil in the US will come pouring out, fossil fuels will lift us to greater prosperity, you just can't stop the market forces forever.

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 9:09 PM, REIN wrote:

    150,000 years ago the atmospheric CO2 concentration rose quickly from about 180 PPM to 300 PPM. It took 15,000 years for it to happen and over the nex 120,000 years the concentration returned to 180 PPM. For the past 15-20,000 years the concentration has again risen to 300 PPM. These cycles are commonly referred to as ice ages. However the proper term is periods of glaciation. The past 20,000 years have been a period of interglaciation, when the ice has been receding. The term ice age refers more specifically to the glaciation/interglactiation cycle which we has been occuring for millions of years. While man may infact be contributing to this cycle, it is extremely unlikely that man can prevent this cycle from occuring.

    "Of the 186 billion tons of CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants."

    For more info check out:

    http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

    Rein

  • Report this Comment On December 11, 2009, at 10:58 PM, m0j0m0j0 wrote:

    co2 is plant food a trace gas the temp of the world is controlled by the sun and water vapor holds 1,000's x more heat than co2 and it self regulates anyone who thinks humans affect the climate is a fool small f the earth is huge we are a very small part the ocean 70% of the surface plus volcanos over 100 on land plus who knows under water termites and all the other life produce more methane 380 parts per billion of co2 is nothing but plant food we might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 12:03 AM, MoneyWorksforMe wrote:

    Rein, so ONLY 6 billion tons are from human activity. so .5% of CO2 is of anthropogenic origin. But what was that percentage 10 years ago? 50 years ago? And prior to the industrial revolution? You catch my drift. And if your argument is with relative abundance alone, explain the destruction of the ozone layer during the 70's as a result of CFC's. Or was that all fabricated as well? With industrialization occurring now at a continuously increasing rate, with rapidly growing economies around the world and the exponentially increasing human population, you can see why this would be an issue if you gave the percent of anthropogenic CO2 as a function of TIME. Well, if Obama isn't right about the climate, he sure is about one thing-- and that is the relative decline in students' performances in the academia of math and science, as evidenced here by the myopic comments (not all), which contain far more politics and philosophy than science and empirical analysis. I sure hope you--once again, NOT all-- do more thorough analyses when choosing stocks for your portfolios.

    I am currently an atmospheric science and mathematics major. I did NOT even read this article; I simply read the title and jumped right to the comments, so I am neither endorsing, nor opposing it. I do, however, agree with the science of climate change, and humanities indirect impact on the earth's climate. If anyone would like to discuss this further, I'm open to all sensible arguments and criticism, so long as they are scientifically based.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 1:51 AM, charles13530 wrote:

    Please review some basic facts about atmospheric components. CO2 is only 0.033% of the atmosphere,coming in third place behind Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon. Human activity produces only a small percentage of CO2 added to the atmosphere each year. CO2 is taken up by plants and water. Water vapor is by far the most significant greenhouse gas. So how is Carbon trading - Cap & Trade going to have any measurable effect on global warming ? It does not make any sense. Cap & Trade will cost most American families and small businesses thousands of dollars every year. Who will get the money? Governments, politicians, lobbyists, Carbon credit traders (Goldman-Sachs), and the large corporations and power producers which are already lining up for their Carbon credits. It will be decades before this sham will be dismantled by future world leaders. The US government gave up on environmental cleanup (Super fund sites) because the cleanup was hard and expensive. This CO2- Manmade global warming- Cap & trade movement has already diverted our attention from productive environmental efforts, wasted lots of good will, time and Money. Are there enough politicians in Washington, or Corporate leaders with the Courage and common sense to stand up and say NO, enough, the Emperor has no clothes!? I pray there are, for the sake of my children, their children, and the entire world.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 3:32 AM, MoneyWorksforMe wrote:

    --Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas because it absorbs infrared radiation causing C=O bonds in the molecule to stretch and bend.

    Each year fossil fuel combustion worldwide puts~6.2 billion metric tons of carbon into the atmosphere as CO2.

    --About 45% is removed from the atmosphere via natural processes--photosynthesis, and the rest by dissolving into rainwater and oceans to form hydrogen carbonates and carbonates. The other 55% of the CO2 from fossil fuel combustion remains in the atmosphere, increasing the global CO2 concentration.

    --1750 (preindustrial revolution) CO2 concentration in atm. was 277ppm.

    --1880 CO2 = 291ppm a 5% increase.

    --From 1958 to 2004, the atm. concentration of CO2 increased from 315 to 377ppm, a 20% increase.

    --Expectations based on advanced computer models are that CO2 concentrations will continue to increase at 1.5ppm/year and are projected to reach 550ppm, between 2030 and 2050.

    --According to the IPCC nearly 75% of CO2 emissions are from the burning of fossil fuels.

    --As the CO2 level has increased, global temperatures have increased--a direct correlation.

    --The IPCC estimates a 1--3.5C (2--6F) temperature increase by 2100.

    --Warming by 1.5C would produce the warmest climate seen on earth in the past 6000 years.

    ---An increase of 4.5C would be unprecedented since the Mesozoic era (aka the time of the dinosaurs).

    --Since the 1940's, avg summertime temperatures in Antarctica have increased 2.5C to above 0C--ice shelves have lost nearly 13% of their total area during 1998 alone.

    --The global avg. temperature has risen .6 -.8C (1-1.5 F) over the past 150 yrs.

    ---In 2006, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, stated, "It can be said with a high level of confidence that global mean surface temperature was higher during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period during the preceding four centuries."

    Now I am not defending what is going on politically-- that is a whole other very complicated issue. Is Cap and Trade the solution? Maybe. Is there a better political solution out there? I suppose. If you don't think it's viable, contrive a different system that can significantly curtail emissions while limiting the alleged adverse affects on American families and businesses. All i see here are critics; not problem solvers. It is a very difficult issue, I'll give you that.

    But what I am really trying to get at here, is that climate change is REAL, and it deserves serious attention and a swift, unified global response.

    All of this information was retrieved from my college chemistry textbook: "Chemistry The Molecular Science" Moore, Stanitski, Jurs pp. 473-478.

    Thanks, have a nice day!

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 3:33 AM, MoneyWorksforMe wrote:

    --Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas because it absorbs infrared radiation causing C=O bonds in the molecule to stretch and bend.

    Each year fossil fuel combustion worldwide puts~6.2 billion metric tons of carbon into the atmosphere as CO2.

    --About 45% is removed from the atmosphere via natural processes--photosynthesis, and the rest by dissolving into rainwater and oceans to form hydrogen carbonates and carbonates. The other 55% of the CO2 from fossil fuel combustion remains in the atmosphere, increasing the global CO2 concentration.

    --1750 (preindustrial revolution) CO2 concentration in atm. was 277ppm.

    --1880 CO2 = 291ppm a 5% increase.

    --From 1958 to 2004, the atm. concentration of CO2 increased from 315 to 377ppm, a 20% increase.

    --Expectations based on advanced computer models are that CO2 concentrations will continue to increase at 1.5ppm/year and are projected to reach 550ppm, between 2030 and 2050.

    --According to the IPCC nearly 75% of CO2 emissions are from the burning of fossil fuels.

    --As the CO2 level has increased, global temperatures have increased--a direct correlation.

    --The IPCC estimates a 1--3.5C (2--6F) temperature increase by 2100.

    --Warming by 1.5C would produce the warmest climate seen on earth in the past 6000 years.

    ---An increase of 4.5C would be unprecedented since the Mesozoic era (aka the time of the dinosaurs).

    --Since the 1940's, avg summertime temperatures in Antarctica have increased 2.5C to above 0C--ice shelves have lost nearly 13% of their total area during 1998 alone.

    --The global avg. temperature has risen .6 -.8C (1-1.5 F) over the past 150 yrs.

    ---In 2006, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, stated, "It can be said with a high level of confidence that global mean surface temperature was higher during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period during the preceding four centuries."

    Now I am not defending what is going on politically-- that is a whole other very complicated issue. Is Cap and Trade the solution? Maybe. Is there a better political solution out there? I suppose. If you don't think it's viable, contrive a different system that can significantly curtail emissions while limiting the alleged adverse affects on American families and businesses. All i see here are critics; not problem solvers. It is a very difficult issue, I'll give you that.

    But what I am really trying to get at here, is that climate change is REAL, and it deserves serious attention and a swift, unified global response.

    All of this information was retrieved from my college chemistry textbook: "Chemistry The Molecular Science" Moore, Stanitski, Jurs pp. 473-478.

    Thanks, have a nice day!

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 3:36 AM, MoneyWorksforMe wrote:

    My apologies for the double post, my computer, or TMF, or both, had a bit of a glitch and I was unable to view it the first time I posted it.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 10:43 AM, REIN wrote:

    MoneyWorks,

    You make some good points, they appear to be factually based. I see some of your data match mine. This is exactly the kind of argument I would like to be seeing more of.

    You comment that I have not done enough research. Well, I'm only an engineer, not a scientist, and I am probably not going to invest significantly more time than I already do (which is maybe an hour a month) in the global warming field. Good luck with the majority of folks who have little or no sense for science or engineering.

    So let me see if I understand, 75% of (man made?) CO2 comes from fossil fuel burning? Because 99.5% of CO2 comes from natural sources such as volcanos and decaying vegetation.

    In contrast to your statements about temperature and CO2 concentrations when dinosaurs were roaming the earth. I believe temperatures were 8 degC warmer where they reach a natural ceiling. And CO2 concentrations were 1,000 - 2,000 PPM, down from 3,000 - 7,000 PPM in the 100s of millions of years preceding the dinosaurs. There is only one other geolgic period when CO2 concentrations were as low as they are today. What caused them to recover over 2000 PPM again? I look at this trend and see that CO2 concentrations are decreasing with time, just like I look at the stock market and see that it increases with time. Would you say the stock market is increasing or decreasing? It certainly depends on what time frame and which stocks. A person could come to any conclusion they wish (i.e. gold & treasury investors)

    And what about people who subscribe to creationism. I know some very scientific people that just don't believe in all these millions of years ago theories. They say that God just makes it look like the earth is millions of years old. So believing in global warming is kind of a religious/faith thing too.

    And what about our government's strategy to protect us from the next big meteor, the next big earthquake, what percent of the GDP should we invest against protecting from these cataclysms?

    Rein

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 1:51 PM, Only1Me wrote:

    I have to agree with the prior comment about the percentage of the US population that is concerned, where did that number come from? I wasn't asked, were you?

    As with all "government programs", those that are supporting these programs had better be ready to show that they have already made a generous personal contribution before they ask the rest of the government to pitch in. I ask everyone who doesn't understand our government to look in the mirror and take a close look at the government.The government doesn't have money except what it collects from us in taxes.

    One the note of government responsilility, I sent a message to my representatives and got a response that the environmeltal treaty was good for the state. I contest this statement as it is good for some of the BUSINESSES in the state but in general the impact on the residents could be really severs with increased costs of basic needs.

    Steve

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 3:08 PM, WheresTheBox wrote:

    I have been studying climate change since I received my Ph.D. in the subject in the early 1980's. Being of a skeptical nature, the first time I heard of anthropogenic climate warming, I thought: "That’s really far fetched. It looks good in theory, but if it were really happening the planet should be warming. I'll believe this when I see it". By the mid-90's it became pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that the world's climates were not behaving normally. In fact, they were changing precisely as climate models of the early 80's had predicted. And they continue to do so, but at an accelerating rate.

    This is why the vast arguments about the "Medieval warm period", the "Hockey stick" et. cetera are irrelevant. The sequential warming of the last two decades was entirely predicted as a result of the rising carbon dioxide levels. We had a scientific prediction, and then, like idiots, we tested that prediction using our own planet's atmosphere. This is what science is; prediction and testing. Whether or not a similar warm period has happened in the past is not relevant to this experiment. If 100 people try an experimental drug, and 5 of them quickly die, the doctor does not say, “That’s OK people have died before”.

    What has been the most amazing, and depressing, is to see how this formerly arcane scientific subject has become popularized. Now every child, janitor, and high-school dropout has not just an opinion, but a STRONG opinion. I suppose that if brain surgery had political and economic implications then we’d all consider ourselves to be brain surgeons.

    Anyone without a tinfoil hat knows deep down that anthropogenic warming is really happening. But so many don’t want “the other side” to win the argument. If you have children (and like them), you should think more about their well being. Otherwise, congratulations, you’ll be dead before it gets really bad.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 3:13 PM, WheresTheBox wrote:

    I have been studying climate change since I received my Ph.D. in the subject in the early 1980's. Being of a skeptical nature, the first time I heard of anthropogenic climate warming, I thought: "That’s really far fetched. It looks good in theory, but if it were really happening the planet should be warming. I'll believe this when I see it". By the mid-90's it became pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that the world's climates were not behaving normally. In fact, they were changing precisely as climate models of the early 80's had predicted. And they continue to do so, but at an accelerating rate.

    This is why the vast arguments about the "Medieval warm period", the "Hockey stick" et. cetera are irrelevant. The sequential warming of the last two decades was entirely predicted as a result of the rising carbon dioxide levels. We had a scientific prediction, and then, like idiots, we tested that prediction using our own planet's atmosphere. This is what science is; prediction and testing. Whether or not a similar warm period has happened in the past is not relevant to this experiment. If 100 people try an experimental drug, and 5 of them quickly die, the doctor does not say, “That’s OK people have died before”.

    What has been the most amazing, and depressing, is to see how this formerly arcane scientific subject has become popularized. Now every child, janitor, and high-school dropout has not just an opinion, but a STRONG opinion. I suppose that if brain surgery had political and economic implications then we’d all consider ourselves to be brain surgeons.

    Anyone without a tinfoil hat knows deep down that anthropogenic warming is really happening. But so many don’t want “the other side” to win the argument. If you have children (and like them), you should think more about their well being. Otherwise, congratulations, you’ll be dead before it gets really bad.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 4:34 PM, WheresTheBox wrote:

    foolhardy (above) is correct.

    "There is no power greater then the power of the free market."

    This is why cap and trade (or a carbon tax) will work. It is really a shame that these carbon credits will at first be squandered among the coal, oil, and other counter-productive industries. But that's how our system works, and why they support all those congressmen in the first place. But eventually the real costs of producing energy will trickle down to the market.

    If electricity cost ten times as much, I'm sure all of us would figure out pretty quickly that we only really need one light bulb per room. After a while, you would go to Home Depot and they would have 2 watt light bulbs. Best Buy would have 20 watt televisions. Now their wattage is so unimportant it isn't even posted.

    And it would be the same in every industry. But much to the dismay of EXXON, their profits would then be going to EXELON instead. It will not make any difference in our lives, will make us completely independent from foreign energy sources, will benefit many new industries, but it devastate some of the industries that are the most entrenched into our political and monetary systems. Thus their fight to-the-death.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 7:25 PM, MoneyWorksforMe wrote:

    Rein,

    Yes, that's right. So 75% of our emissions are derived from fossil fuels and the chemical process of combustion.

    Okay, so with the stock market analogy you are suggesting that although CO2 concentrations have recently been increasing rapidly the general trend is still lower. I disagree here. Due to the fact that very recently (in earth's history) we have introduced a brand new, significant variable into earth's climate system: the burning of fossil fuels. This is why the recent upward trend should be considered more than just an anomaly or a minor deviation, taking for granted its affect as negligible and the general downward trend will continue indefinitely. If anything, the fact that the general trend has been down for such a long period and its sudden shift upward coincides with the industrial revolution should be alarming.

    Now I will put forth another analogy--this time with economics---to explain why the chief issue here is the rate of change over time; NOT the magnitude of the warming itself. Recessions are a natural, healthy occurrence for any economy. They are our economies natural way of ridding itself of excess and doing away with underachieving businesses. Most recessions begin and end over the course of a year so, and are relatively mild. But what made the financial crisis so devastating, and brought our economy to the brink of collapse? It was, simply put the rate of change that was so devastating-- in terms of lay-offs, foreclosures,defaults, bankruptcies etc. Everything I just mentioned happens in every recession, but what separates this from most others? The extremely accelerated rate of contraction.

    And to put this in engineering terms, I was thinking of impulse and momentum. The driver of a car is much less liable to be injured severely if the impact of the car is spread out over a longer period vs. an instantaneous jolt.

    This goes for our climate as well. Variances in CO2 concentrations should not be measurable over periods of years, NOT even hundreds of years, and perhaps not even over the course of a thousand years. The magnitude of CO2 concentration is NOT unprecedented, it's the rate at which it is increasing that is. A rate so fast that it would out pace most evolution--bio-diversity's natural defense. What does that spell for us? Well certainly not the end of the world but I'd say we'd be setting ourselves up for at the very least a very tumultuous period. Famine due to widespread extinctions would be our most difficult challenge until evolution catches up.

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 9:24 PM, growop wrote:

    Attn: Al Gore proclaims Global Warming exists, Buys big stake in Chicago Climate Exchange.

    The almighty dollar still reigns supreme!!

  • Report this Comment On December 12, 2009, at 10:13 PM, djones712 wrote:

    The problem with climatology is the scale of the information which they look at (roughly 200 years of climate data). Geologists look at markers that span millions of years. The earth's temperature is on a 20,000 year cycle that has to do with the change in shape of the orbit of the earth around the sun. If we were in an ice age 10,000 years ago, what do you think is going to happen? Geologists (from oil companies) found this cycle and use that information to determine where possible oil reservoirs are (the cycle coincides with sea level change). It's in several geology books, but of course, the oil industry is the "enemy" and no one wants to hear this argument.

  • Report this Comment On December 13, 2009, at 4:22 PM, lh100 wrote:

    snapdave

    "lh100

    If you can't see how "we will lose our jobs" is related to this, I can't help you. If it were not for loss of business and jobs (not to mention wasted capital) no one would object. "

    If you dont see how you cant start a debate with a selfish argument such as that, then i cant help you either. Losing your job does not help to prove that global warming is caused by us and not the normal rise in global temperature, and if that is your argument for not doing anything, then that just proves the point how some Americans(or maybe Alberta..) put their interests over the rest of the world. That is precisely what has made any kind of world regulations impossible so far. Funny ironic thing is if there is any country that knows how to handle changes, it has to be the US, or at least the good part of it.

  • Report this Comment On December 13, 2009, at 5:04 PM, NOTvuffett wrote:

    Al Gore explains geothermal energy here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BooOfsZgac

    That's right folks, the earth's interior is like a million degrees or something, lol.

  • Report this Comment On December 13, 2009, at 5:07 PM, NOTvuffett wrote:

    Al Gore explains geothermal energy here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BooOfsZgac

    That is right folks, the earth's interior is like a million degrees, or something, lol.

  • Report this Comment On December 13, 2009, at 10:17 PM, jbcole02 wrote:

    Where do I start . . .

    I will speak for my state, Kentucky, and the problems the very serious problems of CAP and TRADE policies.

    In Kentucky it is illegal for any power company to construct a nuclear generating facility, we have nearly Zero renewable energy available. It’s never windy, most days it’s partly cloudy, and almost all hydro power is harnessed. So we depend on good old reliable coal. And because of coal, our electric bills are the fourth cheapest in the nation.

    So what will Carbon capture do to us and most of the rest of the US? KILL the economy . . . slowly . . . over time. By the year 2017-02 it is estimated that our state electric bills ill raise as much as 300%. The big steel and automotive companies along with UPS, Lexmark, General Cable, and Ashland Oil, would most likely leave our state. Oil refineries get double taxed, because they use electricity, and they [usually] use Coal fired boilers for desulfurization of Crude. Electricity is a major operating cost for this companies and a three hundred percent raise in their electric bill will most likely send them to Mexico.

    Not to mention what it will do to all the people who live in the eastern part of the state below the poverty line. It is really tragic that there are people who are struggling so much, and it is only going to get worse for them.

    By the way there is no proven technology that will successfully get rid of CO2. . . NONE. Not one. ZERO. People try to draw a comparison between Carbon, NOx, and SO2 credits but comparing the three is not an apples to apples argument, its more like apples to bowling balls. SO2 and NOx both have proven ways of getting rid of the pollutants. CO2 does not. With SO2 and NOx we can use scrubbers and SCR’s (Selective Catalytic Reduction) respectively. CO2 is too thermodynamically stable to react. Power companies using Coal actually use their scrubbers to produce Gypsum (primary ingredient in drywall). I suppose you could use CO2 in a paintball gun, but that is about it.

    Why cant we see through the CO2 issues and not into the PEOPLE issues, like the poverty, the economy, and the Starvation?

    Just my 2 cents.

    -JC

    Sources

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/209/529013022_5d2125499b.jpg

    http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps.asp

    http://www.jobbankusa.com/jobs/kentucky_ky/job_employment_la...

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 1:16 AM, dscfool wrote:

    I am a (Ph.D.) scientist, and I think that global warming is the greatest hoax ever foisted on humanity. The average global temperature has risen less than 1 degree over the last 100 years, and temps have actually been decreasing since 1998. These changes are well within the normal range of global temperatures, which have varied from 10-15 degrees (both higher and lower) over geologic time.

    CO2 is actually a very weak warming agent, methane (which is produced by plants) is much stronger, and noone is talking about instituting methane limits. Actually, planting more trees will increase methane concentrations and lead to greater warming!

    It is also a fact that the vast majority (approximately 96%) of CO2 is natural, NOT man-made, so even if we completely banned all human CO2 (which is impossible), it would have nearly zero effect on the environment.

    Supporters of the global warming side are radical environmentalists and politicians pursuing an agenda, they are not scientists.

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Taid5G wrote:

    taid5g@talktalk.net

    Also a scientist I completely agree with dscfool any alterations to our planet are caused by actiivities on the sun and nothing whatever to do with CO2.

    This hoax has been a boon to politicians as a way to extract more money from us. What the idiots don't realise is that the pursuit of their aims will do nothing to help the planet but will cost trillions which the global economy cannot afford

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 12:48 PM, thku4grace wrote:

    I think the legal profession emits far more than 25,000 tons of CO2 every time they open their mouths. What we need is tort reform so as to eliminate the hundreds of thousands of arguments that occur each and every day. That of course, includes our nation's legislators. May they be confined to sign language. Seen and not be heard.

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 3:11 PM, jbgoober wrote:

    Why have I never heard of the carbonic industry in the CO2 debate. Or beer, welding? Maybe Gore has a stake in Coke or some "Billy" beer in his home state.

    What will the tax be good beer buzz?

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 3:38 PM, VegasMartin wrote:

    Global warming is a fraud designed as a way to tax us. Please Google "climategate" and learn what is going on behind the scenes. Scientists are paid to manipulate the global warming data so governments can make us believe in global warming and then tax CO2 consumption. Many scientists have proved that there is no link between CO2 and global warming. CO2 is basically food for plants and nothing more.

    http://www.ShootTheBears.com

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 4:32 PM, duhsciple wrote:

    Thank you to those who discussed the CO2 evidence and its relationship to potential global warming!

    The posts that contained actual data were great!

    Now... what about the actual melting of glaciers and/or the polar ice caps? What about the snow cover on Mt. Kilimanjaro? Is it happening? If it is happening, should we be concerned?

    And I know that many of you are hard headed, no nonsense investors so I ask you to be evidence focused, not economical-political ideology focused. To tell you the truth, I'm getting a little sick of that from our culture right now.

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 4:34 PM, duhsciple wrote:

    Also, for those who believe that global warming is an international conspiracy fraud, show me the money! Give me the evidence. Location, location, location... how about... data, data, data...

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 4:55 PM, lh100 wrote:

    I think it is a fact among everybody that any kind of regulations will not make it cheaper to produce anything, including "polluting" energies like coal. And so the question really revolves around the impact of that regulation on climate changes, not any kind of "what is this going to do to my state" argument. No offense, but IF humans and it's ways are really making the Earth warmer, why is Kentucky's economic situation in any way relevant to this? The same applies to any part of the world. Again, on the assumption that we are responsible, it is like saying that you prefer avoiding an economic slower growth(or negative) in Kentucky and letting Florida drown.

    So really, the real debate should be focused

    1) Causes of climate changes(human vs natural causes)

    2) Who should contribute more to avoid climate changes ( which is the Copenhague's summit problem right now, nobody wants to pay the bill).

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 6:36 PM, quietjohn wrote:

    I don't have a lot of answers - just a lot of questions. Here's one:

    How can CO2 be a pollutant when 80% of Earth's biomass thrives on it?

  • Report this Comment On December 14, 2009, at 6:39 PM, quietjohn wrote:

    Amazing! There people even here that believe Al Gore is a scientist!

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 4:54 AM, dadob wrote:

    The economy is where I really live. Lack of money, and loss of money causes most of my pain. Pollution has bothered me hardly at all. But, I still want clean air I just don't want to pay too much for it. I want clean air to be worth it balancing all desires I have. War hasn't bothered me much but I still want as little as possible, because it's very expensive in lives and money. I am motivated by the profit motive. I don’t want arsenic in my drinking water but I’ll tolerate a little because I don’t want to spend too much getting rid of every last shred. I think a little arsenic is worth it. Dimishing returns is very important to me. It’s gotta be worth it. Because if I don’t have enough money, and I’m not letting you decide how much is enough for me, life looses most of it’s joy. Because I’ll have to work 16 hours a day surviving and will have little time for the really important things, like love, learning, diversion and expression. No time or energy for the good stuff. That’s why money motivates me, it buys me time for what I really like doing. Every other human on the planet is just like me. They want time for what they think is important. Even leftists, who insist profit is evil, are driven by money. Because money is power and that’s important to them. Communist apparachiks love money, main street loves money, liberals and leftists love money, wall street loves money. Human's love money, and hate not having it.

    I'm not willing to give too much money to global warming, I'm not willing to give too much money to oil companies, I'm not willing to give too much money to bureaucrats. You can't scare me enough to willingly do that.We have to watch the money trail in all our dealings with big companies and big government, and human's in general. I am cautious when powerful individuals, governments and business want to "improve" my life. I doubt them first. I don't trust anybody with enough power or money to affect the economy. The idea that government is more trustworthy than big business is laughable. Any one of them is willing to steamroller me if they think they have to. I can only control them by cutting off their money. I avoid buying their stuff or “services” if it’s not worth it to me. I seek to pay taxes as little as possible.

    I smile everytime a politician calls himself a public servant. I resist the idea that any proposed "good" or "need" is prima faceia worth vast expense or any expense if we can't afford it. I resist when people sneer at me that it’s always about the money with me. It’s always about the money with everyone. The chicken littles of this world don’t want to spend to much of their money. They want to spend a lot of your money.

    I was against giving the banks, and insurance companies a blank check to save us from 25% unemployment. I think the unemployment would have been much cheaper. Because I don’t think the goverment even knows how to fix the economy. At least it’s too big a gamble to me to let them do it. I’m pretty sure they’ll muck it up by flailing around and moving the ball so business can’t get on it’s feet or get it bearings. I believe government can't help but make things worse when they take on more they can handle.

    I don't want to give the government a blank check to "fix" the weather. Because I don't think they can and if they can. I'm pretty sure warm weather is better than cold weather. You often see news people freak out about a few hundered people dieing during heat waves. They ignore the tens of thousands killed by cold weather. Think flue epidemics, ambulances that can’t get to people, traffic accidents, more pollution from more heating, etc.

    I don't want to give the government a blank check for healthcare either. I don't think they can pull it off. I think government could tweak things, like stopping the hemoraging of fraud in medicare caused by government statute. But, I don’t think they come close to being able to manage every aspect of the industry. I just don’t trust them with much money or power. You shouldn’t either.

    dadob

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 6:16 PM, kauaipie wrote:

    I have a Masters degree in engineering and 3 decades of experience in developing high technology systems. The simple truth is that there can never be complete certainty about the component of global warming attributable to human existence. I think the military motto "Plan for the worst and hope for the best" applies here. If we implement a plan to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and the scientists supporting human activities as a cause of global warming are wrong, we still benefit from breaking our dependence on foreign oil. In the process we also develop vibrant new industries and, let's face it, oil is not going to last forever so "Pay me now or pay me later".

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 6:47 PM, Baddog67 wrote:

    Clean Coal Technology Clean Coal Technology Clean Coal Technology Clean Coal Technology Clean Coal Technology Clean Coal Technology

    I can't believe I voted for Gore......

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 9:09 PM, johnis9 wrote:

    As Elton noted last week on Domestic Fuel Cast (www.DomesticFuel.com), a popular podcast series that reports on domestic fuel alternatives, “this particular technology is the most powerful and sustainable fuel technology that's being developed in the world today . . . because it's the most direct path from CO2 to fuel." To hear the podcast, visit the following link: www.bit.ly/naturalgas9

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Markonomics wrote:

    1) The global warming skeptics are no different from the morons who believed the earth was flat. It was convenient, felt good, and didn't require any difficult changes.

    2) The Fool is doing a great disservice by giving any credence to Stephen Dubners idiotic proposal to pump sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere. Sulphur will do nothing to counteract the acidification of the ocean caused by record CO2 concentrations. This problem has serious economic and ecological consequences stemming from severe damage to the bottom of the food chain. What's more sulphur dioxide is the key ingredient in acid rain. The Stephen Dubner/Fool line of thinking, if you can call it that, is best described as "penny wise but pound foolish."

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Markonomics wrote:

    1) The global warming skeptics are no different from the morons who believed the earth was flat. It was convenient, felt good, and didn't require any difficult changes.

    2) The Fool is doing a great disservice by giving any credence to Stephen Dubners idiotic proposal to pump sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere. Sulphur will do nothing to counteract the acidification of the ocean caused by record CO2 concentrations. This problem has serious economic and ecological consequences stemming from severe damage to the bottom of the food chain. What's more sulphur dioxide is the key ingredient in acid rain. The Stephen Dubner/Fool line of thinking, if you can call it that, is best described as "penny wise but pound foolish."

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Markonomics wrote:

    1) The global warming skeptics are no different from the morons who believed the earth was flat. It was convenient, felt good, and didn't require any difficult changes.

    2) The Fool is doing a great disservice by giving any credence to Stephen Dubners idiotic proposal to pump sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere. Sulphur will do nothing to counteract the acidification of the ocean caused by record CO2 concentrations. This problem has serious economic and ecological consequences stemming from severe damage to the bottom of the food chain. What's more sulphur dioxide is the key ingredient in acid rain. The Stephen Dubner/Fool line of thinking, if you can call it that, is best described as "penny wise but pound foolish."

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 11:57 PM, Markonomics wrote:

    It's funny how people think so much CO2 comes from natural sources vs fossil fuel burning activity like driving or power plants.

    Think about this:

    If you drive your car for one hour, what percentage of the total CO2 you created in that hour comes from your car's engine vs your breathing?

    As for volcanos, data has shown that even in years with massive eruptions the global CO2 levels barely register a measurable change.

  • Report this Comment On December 15, 2009, at 11:58 PM, Markonomics wrote:

    It's funny how people think so much CO2 comes from natural sources vs fossil fuel burning activity like driving or power plants.

    Think about this:

    If you drive your car for one hour, what percentage of the total CO2 you created in that hour comes from your car's engine vs your breathing?

    As for volcanos, data has shown that even in years with massive eruptions the global CO2 levels barely register a measurable change.

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 9:11 AM, WheresTheBox wrote:

    How relevant is the relatively small anthropogenic increase to the total carbon dioxide amount in the atmosphere? You might start by considering this analogy. We each have 200 or so grams of potassium in our bodies. Yet an injection of potassium chloride containing just one gram of potassium would be lethal. This is why a common chemical, already abundant in our systems, can be used for executions by lethal injection. Similarly, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere controls the planet's heat balance. With no carbon dioxide the earth would be so cold as to be uninhabitable. With normal levels, the planet has kept in the temperature range that humans and most other terrestrial organisms have evolved and survived. But with just a little more, this natural balance ends and the planet enters a new range of temperatures and atmospheric characteristics. Maybe it would be good for the re-evolution of dinosaurs, but Homo sapiens is not adapted for this new planet.

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 9:12 AM, cloggervic2 wrote:

    1 The worst prediction of global warming is only 2-3 degrees in one century. In 1 century, fossil fuels will be gone. Then the problem will be staying warm

    2. A carbon cycle is essential to life. We have to return carbon dioxide to the atmosphere (which plant life requires) that was taken out by plants. We do this by burning trees (or fossilized trees = coal) or by buring oil (fossilized shellfish, that took carbon dioxide out of the sea.)

    3. The carbon tax is scientific nonsense and just another way for scientifically illiterate liberals to get another piece of your money to fart around with

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 10:50 AM, plange01 wrote:

    with the now year old depreression in the US close to causing a major collapse carbon dioxide is getting very popular among fools.....

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Atrocity wrote:

    H2O is also deadly.

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 2:35 PM, Atrocity wrote:

    H2O is also deadly.

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 3:18 PM, duhsciple wrote:

    Yes, H2O is deadly if you are "in over your head" in it. If it were possible to keep flooding the earth with more and more water until there was no land mass, then I would call that a pollutant.

    So the question is: are we getting "in over our heads" with CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) or not?

    The debate is whether the CO2 threshold of 350 parts per million is the limit for "life as we know it" or not.

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 4:21 PM, BigBadTroll wrote:

    Whether or not humans actually make any difference in the earth's atmospheric CO2, there have been any number of cost-effective solutions discussed that would negate our contribution of atmospheric CO2 - the one from Freakonomics, for example; seeding the iron-starved areas of the ocean with iron to grow algae to sequester the CO2 is another I've read about. If the global-warming activists were really in it for the environment, you'd think they'd jump on one of these solutions and say "job well done - thanks!" But they don't! They keep talking about how we must have additional regulations and controls and limits to save us from ourselves. This tells me the activists (or, more specifically, the people pulling the strings behind the activists) are in it for the power - they want the control, not to fix the environment. The environment is just their excuse.

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 4:38 PM, Atrocity wrote:

    I think the real debate is, how can we generate tax revenues?

  • Report this Comment On December 16, 2009, at 6:21 PM, fsc137 wrote:

    There is absolutely no scientific doubt whatsoever that there has been an increase in atmospheric CO2 from 290 parts per million to 350 parts per million since the beginning of the industrial revolution. The accuracy of these measurements is better than 1%.

    There is absolutely no scientific doubt that this increase is entirely due to the burning of fossil fuels. That is indicated by the change in isotope ratios of the carbon atoms. The added carbon has no carbon 14.

    There is absolutely no scientific doubt that adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere of a planet, taken as an isolated "forcing", causes the surface of that planet to warm.

    There is absolutely no scientific doubt that the timescale for such a phenomenon is hundreds of years.

    Now, where there is doubt are the feedback effects, both positive and negative. There is some chance that the feedbacks are largely negative, so that adding CO2 causes other changes that counteract the tendency for the surface to warm. There is also some chance that the feedbacks are positive, and warming will lead to more warming. There is considerable evidence that this happened in the Permian extinction, when average world temperatures rose by 30 C. The arctic becomes tropical and standing water on the equator is near boiling. We are currently engaged in a vast experiment, and our great-great-great grandchildren will find out (if they're still alive).

    I think humans are so stupid that they cannot be prevented from burning every bit of fossil fuel on the planet as quickly as they can. My consolation is that this is probably not enough to kill all humans or all life on the planet.

  • Report this Comment On December 17, 2009, at 2:17 AM, BigBadTroll wrote:

    So, fsc137, granting that there may be a problem with atmospheric CO2, do any of the currently proposed simple and inexpensive solutions to the problem meet with your approval?

  • Report this Comment On December 26, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Scottar35 wrote:

    On December 16, 2009, at 6:21 PM, fsc137 wrote:

    "There is absolutely no scientific doubt that adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere of a planet, taken as an isolated "forcing", causes the surface of that planet to warm."

    CO2 has an upper limit of 350 where no more warming occurs. The CRU emails prove that the science was corrupted by grant seeking science department heads. You can read about it at icecap.us and other related articles on Climate Change.

    As Mark Twain once said- There are Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!

  • Report this Comment On December 26, 2009, at 6:42 PM, eaglett101 wrote:

    How is it that 500 scientists claim we are we have a problem and 5000 scientists state there is no problem. Is it the carbon dioxide that is causing the problem or is it the sulfur. Is it the fact the when crbon and oxygen combine with hydrogen that an acid is formed. As usual it is those with the most hype get the most attention. No presents the evidence and allows us to decide, they dicide for us. Fools look for answers and are not lead around by their nose.

  • Report this Comment On December 31, 2009, at 12:23 PM, MoneyWorksforMe wrote:

    In response to CRU hack:

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cr...

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cr...

    How do we know that recent CO2 increases are due to human activities? http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do...

    As for this man's (Eric) credentials: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/eric-s...

    Some background info on radiative forcing (used to deduce warming/cooling based upon more or less incoming/outgoing radiation): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_forcing

    Note: TOA = Top of atmosphere.

    CO2 explained: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/the-co...

    As for this man's (Gavin) credentials: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/gavin-...

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