Splits, Shorts, and Refinances: What Investors Need to Know

Tesla (TSLA 1.50%) and Apple (AAPL 0.02%) are about to split their stocks, and both have been going higher since making their announcements. Is a split really a meaningless numbers game, or does it add actual value for investors? Also, reports are showing that short-selling is at a 15-year low, and host Jason Moser and Fool.com contributor Matt Frankel, CFP discuss what it means for the stock market and investors in general. Finally, they talk about an unpopular cost increase set to hit mortgage refinancers and why Rocket Companies (RKT 1.73%) and Bill.com (BILL -0.40%) are on their radar this week.

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This video was recorded on August 24, 2020.

Jason Moser: It's Monday, August 24th. I'm your host Jason Moser. On this week's Financial show, we're going to talk a little bit more about stock splits, refinancing is cheap but it sounds like it's going to get a little bit more expensive, short-selling in U.S. stocks has hit the lowest level since records began, and as always, we've got a couple of stocks for you to keep your eyes on this week.

But first and foremost, I'm joined this week, as always, by CFP, and that's certified financial podcaster, Matt Frankel, and Certified Financial Planner, too, right, Matt? But you know, hey, what's going on? How are you?

Matt Frankel: Oh, pretty good. It looks like I got better weather than you; if I look behind me. But I can almost see the rain coming through your house.

Moser: Yeah, you know, this just started. And I mean, it's nice. It's cooling things down, but, man, it did kind of come out of nowhere, so let's hope it clears up. Thankfully, we're inside, so we've always got that.

Matt, I wanted to start this show off this week talking a little bit about, because stock splits. Now, there's been some news lately here recently in regard to stock splits. A couple of the bigger more well-known companies, Apple and Tesla recently announced stock splits. I believe Apple splitting 4-for-1; Tesla will split 5-for-1. And I think Tesla splits this week; Apple maybe next week, or is Apple possibly next week.

Frankel: Yeah, I think, they both -- Apple's record date, I believe, is today. But you won't see the shares actually trading at the new split level for another week or so. I think the 31st is the date for both that you'll actually see the trade take effect.

Moser: And the thing that's caught our attention here is, [laughs] as well as, really, the attention of most of the investing world. I mean, we talk a lot about stock splits and what they ultimately are, and what they ultimately mean, and on their own they aren't value creators, right; it's just really, it's just a math problem. But the fact of the matter is, when you see these announcements from Apple and Tesla, since these announcements, I mean, the stocks have just been on phenomenal runs. I think Tesla is up, like, 50% since this news was announced. And again, it's not a value creator really. But, you know, I say that, and I guess we can actually argue that maybe it is to a degree, because these stocks have certainly performed well, based partly on this news at least. But let's dig into this a little bit, I mean, what's your perception here regarding stock splits? I mean, what does this ultimately mean?

Frankel: Yeah, I mean, it's tough to say they're not a value creator. I mean, Apple is already by far the biggest stock in my portfolio, [laughs] and now really is the biggest stock in my portfolio. But theoretically, there's no value being created here. You know, if you have 100 shares of a stock and it splits into 200 shares, each of them worth half as much as the original, you have the same amount of money in your account. But having said that, there are a couple of reasons why splits can actually create value and drive the share price up.

So, No. 1, and this is becoming less of a thing now that fractional shares are available through a few brokerages, but it makes the stock a little more accessible; that's especially the case in a stock that's trading in the thousands like Tesla. Let's just assume for a second your broker doesn't offer fractional shares. If you have $1,000 in your account, you can't buy a share of Tesla right now. So, it opens the stock up to a whole new pool of investors, it allows investors to put more of their money to work in the stock, because Tesla is -- what I want to say, right around $2,000 right now. So, if you have $3,000 and want to invest in Tesla, you can buy one share, but then you have $1,000 in cash still sitting in your brokerage account. A split would allow you to put more of that money to work in smaller increments of Tesla stock. So, it opens a stock up to more investment capital, which can at least in the short term, drive the price a little bit higher.

And No. 2, and probably what we're seeing more in Apple and Tesla right now, is that it boosts the market's confidence in the stock. You know, Tesla telling us that they're splitting their shares 5-for-1 tells us that Elon Musk and Tesla's management thinks that this high share price is here to stay, that it's not just a blip. Same with Tim Cook saying that Apple's stock is going to stay at elevated levels to the point where it justifies a split. You know, if Tesla's management thought shares were intrinsically worth, you know, $300 right now, they wouldn't be doing this split, by doing this, they're conveying confidence to the market that the share price is here to stay. And I think that's really what you're seeing reflected in the past few weeks. Because, obviously, the shares haven't split yet, so they're not open to more investors like in my first point, but you're seeing just kind of the confidence level, really, just go through the roof right now.

Moser: Yeah. And I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head there with the confidence level, right. I think that, to me, again, like on its own, the mechanics of a share split are just that; I mean it's the same size pizza, it's just cut into more slices. But like you said, it's hard to argue they don't create some value, even though they really probably shouldn't, but it's understandable, at least, some of the tailwinds that come from a share split, that ultimately do create value either in the sense that it opens up to additional buyers, because of the lower price, or just this perception out there, right, that the company is doing well. And that leadership feels like that level of performance is here to stay.

So, you know, I see both sides of it. I mean, you argue that theoretically, like, it doesn't do anything to change the company, but it does change a perception or the psychology, and certainly psychology is a big part of investing. I mean, we talk about the psychology of the market all of the time.

Frankel: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the whole market -- and as Warren Buffett has said that, over the short term, the market is a popularity contest. [laughs] So, I mean. And that's, kind of, what we're seeing right here. I'm not even saying that Apple is not worth a $2 trillion valuation; I am kind of saying Tesla is not worth what it's valued right now.

Moser: Oh, you just made some people very angry, Matt.

Frankel: But I'll talk a little bit more about Tesla when we get to the shorts part of our discussion. Even the Tesla bulls are really not making the case right now that it's worth $2,000/share. I saw one analyst who's notoriously a Tesla bull, has upgraded the stock to outperform with a price target that's like $700 less than where it is right now. So, I mean, take that for what you will. But long story short, in the short-term especially, the market is really just, it's a popularity contest, it's a voting machine. And at any given day a stock could go up or down regardless of the fundamentals of the business.

Over the long-term, you know, intrinsic valuation tends to take hold, which is kind of our whole thesis here at The Motley Fool on how we invest, is that, over time good businesses do better and better and that'll be reflected in the stock price, but [laughs] I don't know about you, but I've never read a Motley Fool recommendation that tells me what the stock is going to do this week.

Moser: No, no, no, no. I mean, that's definitely not our MO. And I think to your point there is the popularity contest. I totally agree. I think it's -- was it Ben Graham who said, in the near-term it's a voting machine, but in the long-term it's a weighing machine?

Frankel: Yeah, may have been Buffett repeating a Ben Graham quote. I think he mentioned it.

Moser: Yeah. But you know, I think that's really well put, and it's something we hear a lot of our favorite leaders talk about as well. I heard Jeff Bezos more than once mention that in his focus on, really, making Amazon heavy. He just wants to make it heavy because he's focused on that weighing machine, and that's certainly how we invest too. So, yeah, we can certainly revisit the Tesla [laughs] discussion here in just a little bit as we talk about this record low short story.

But before we do that, let's jump into this refinancing story, because I find this just utterly fascinating. Part of it is because you and I are both right in the middle of refinancing our respective homes. And we talked before on the show here about refinancing and folks at least ought to inquire about that because of the opportunities it provides and the fact that interest rates are where they are today, but it sounds like that the cost of refinancing is getting ready to go up. And it's not just some, like, little nickel and dime thing. I was looking at here, I mean, we're talking to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac essentially adding, adjusting the price to the cost of refinance, adding a 0.5% of the loan amount to the consumers bill to refinance their loans.

And depending on where you live, and I'll just use Northern Virginia up here as an example, housing up here is ridiculously expensive. Some might even call it ridonkulously expensive, I would call it ridonkulously expensive. And a 0.5% on the size of the average loan up here is very, very meaningful. And for the customer to bear that expense, even if you can roll that into the cost of the loan, is still something that exists -- you have to ask, why it even exists in the first place, because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac actually aren't lending, but I want to let you dig into this a little bit, tell us a little bit about this cost that's being added and why Fannie and Freddie are actually able to get away doing this.

Frankel: Well, like you said, it's a 0.5% on refinancing loan specifically; it's not on purchase mortgages. It goes into effect on refinances that are sold to Fannie and Freddie after September 1st, so like a week from now. Are you scheduled to close before September 1st, because I'm on the bubble there.

Moser: Well, we're not. And so, that's where I was fully unclear, because I thought it was saying basically any refinances that are already in progress will be fine. But if you initiate the date that this fee is supposed to be put into place, then you might be in trouble. But I don't think it would apply to ours, because we've already gotten, you know we got the good-faith estimate, everything like -- I don't know. I mean, I'd have to actually check with our lender to confirm that.

Frankel: Right. And I hope not. And I don't really think anybody knows for sure at this point, I don't know at what point your loan is officially marked for sale to Fannie or Freddie too, so that probably has something to do with it. But anyway. So, it's worth mentioning, this only applies to loans that are going to be sold to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. So, these are conforming mortgages. It does not apply to FHA refinances, for example. It doesn't apply to VA loans, if you refinance through the VA. If you have a jumbo mortgage, which, a lot in Jason's neck of the woods are going to be jumbo mortgages that are in excess of Fannie and Freddie's loan limits -- if you have a jumbo mortgage, this doesn't apply to you, because that's not eligible for sale to Fannie or Freddie.

So, this only applies to conforming loans that are eligible for sale to Fannie and Freddie. So, if you're in a high-cost market, this might not even apply to you. But as you mentioned, it's about $1,400 on the average mortgage. The average refinancing loan is about $280,000. So, this 0.5% is $1,400 tacked on to your loan, that's in addition to the origination fee you pay to your lender, any points you're paying on your mortgage, any other closing costs you pay. So, this can really kind of tip the scales on whether refinancing is worth it or not.

If you remember from our discussion a couple of weeks ago, refinancing is really, it's not just about the difference in your interest rate you're paying now and the interest rate of your refinancing, it's the savings of your refinancing going to outweigh the costs of refinancing itself. And this kind of adds a little piece to that puzzle. So, it might not apply to your mortgage depending on how you're refinancing it, but if you do have a conforming loan, meaning you're just going through it, you know, you don't have a VA loan, you don't have an FHA loan, you don't have a jumbo loan, then your refinancing could get expensive.

Now, it's also worth mentioning that there is a big motion on both sides of the political spectrum to get Fannie and Freddie to delay this. And nothing has been announced yet.

Moser: I saw the Mortgage Bankers Association; they weren't very happy about this.

Frankel: Well, neither was the White House, neither were Democrats in Congress, neither -- I mean, it's not just the Mortgage Bankers Association, this is not popular at all.

Moser: Well, so you know what it strikes me as, and this is the first thing that came to mind is, you know, so if you buy a home and you don't put 20% down, then typically you're going to have to pay PMI, Private Mortgage Insurance, until you get that loan-to-value down to 80%. And private mortgage insurance is always -- you know, I got to be careful with my language here, but I've just never been a big fan, because to me, it's basically just the lender pawning off their risk on to you. And that to me is what this ultimately sounds like, is this is based on protecting Fannie and Freddie from potential losses on loans that they purchase. So, they're basically pawning their risk off on to us, or on to consumers. And you know, that to me, it seems like you're getting double-pop there. I mean, let's understand too, you're also paying interest on this loan. I mean, that's to account for that risk to a certain degree. So, I don't know, it just always struck me as a little bit of a double-pop so to speak.

Frankel: Yes, well, your interest rate definitely affects your risk factor. I mean, if say, you have an 800 credit score and I have a 700 credit score, I represent a bigger risk to the lender, so my interest rate is probably going to be higher. So, that's already kind of priced into the loan somehow. And remember this doesn't apply to purchases, this is just refinances. So, they're seeing a record amount of refinancing applications come through.

I remember at some points, it had tripled year-over-year in certain weeks; and for good reason, I mean, mortgage interest rates are at record lows. And the problem in times like these is that credit scores are not a great indicator of risk when, you know, a million people are losing their job each week. I mean, your credit score only goes so far when you don't have a job. So, a prime credit borrower could represent a bigger risk to the lender than is reflected in their interest rate, is kind of the logic behind this.

Now, whether it's right or not -- and I mean, like you said, it's a very unpopular fee. I certainly don't want to pay it; I'm hoping my loan closes before this gets implemented. I don't want to pay this; I don't want anyone listening to have to pay this. And the White House came out in opposition to this. The senators on both sides of the aisle have come out in opposition to this. Fannie and Freddie are under a lot of pressure to at least delay this, [laughs] if not cancel it entirely. The biggest complaint was that they announced this in mid-August and it goes into effect September 1st, you know, kind of give less notice there.

Moser: Not a very customer-centric heads-up there I would say.

Frankel: No.

Moser: Probably the best, the most diplomatic way to put it. So, yeah, I guess if you're in the middle of refinancing your home, make sure to check that out with your lender to see if that's something that you were going to be subjected to. I definitely will be double-checking with our lender. I don't think, if your loan is already in progress, I don't think you will be subjected to it, but I could be wrong. So, we'll definitely want to follow-up with that, but it'll be very interesting to see how this evolves given all of the pushback from, really, a lot of different positions of power.

Frankel: My gut feeling is that they're going to end up delaying this, at least, just because, you know, Fannie and Freddie doesn't -- they don't want to make the entire government mad right now, they're trying to break away from government control, they need cooperation from both sides of the aisle. They really don't want to make everybody [laughs] mad right now. So, my gut tells me that this is going to, not necessarily go away, but at least be delayed to a more reasonable amount of notice.

Moser: Well, let's hope. Let's hope. Okay. So, this next story we want to talk about today, you know, it doesn't really seem like it should be all that surprising, but it is noteworthy. You know, we were reading through this earlier, Goldman Sachs put together some research here recently. And it appears that short positions in the markets are at their lowest level in more than a decade. I think, really what I saw was, all the way back to when they started really tracking this data, several, several years back.

I mean, short interest is at record lows, which given where we are today in the market, given the performance of the market, that certainly is believable; it makes a lot of sense. But yeah, if you are taking the short side, you are really, really feeling a lot of pain right now, aren't you, Matt?

Frankel: Yeah, this is a -- it's amazing how poorly short-sellers have done lately, [laughs] especially considering how overvalued some stocks have looked. Like I mentioned Tesla, and I'll get into some statistics in a second. But I mean, every time -- Tesla looks like a perfect candidate to short, it goes up by another $200, so.

Moser: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's just it. And that just, kind of, feeds off itself too, right? I mean, we talk about short squeezes -- and before we go into that, Matt, if you don't mind, for our listeners real quick, explain really quickly what a short squeeze is?

Frankel: So, a short squeeze happens when you short a stock, your broker will only let it go up by a certain amount before they make you exit the position. Theoretically, a short sale could have unlimited losses. If I short Tesla at $2,000 today, and Tesla goes up to $10,000, which sounds crazy but I wouldn't really discount that possibility, then I've lost $8,000 on the investment on a $2,000 stock. So, the losses can be unlimited. And your broker wants to make sure that they're not going to be left on the hook for this if you lose more than it's in your brokerage account. So, there's a limit to how much they'll let those losses go.

So, as stocks go up, as short positions the wrong way, you're going to see investors exit them, kind of, in a hurry. And if they do this on a large scale, this is what they call a short squeeze, where you see a bunch of investors in a short position rush to cover their shorts. And when you cover your shorts, what do you have to do, you have to buy shares. So, this creates upward pressure, which leads to even more people trying to cover their short sales, and just -- I mean, this is what we saw, really, in the -- if you remember the retail REITs, when we had that episode a few weeks back, where we discussed the retail is not dead basket. You remember that?

Moser: Sure, absolutely.

Frankel: When we saw companies like Simon Property Group, and Seritage, and Tanger Outlets go up, you know, triple in a couple of weeks, a lot of that was most likely a short squeeze where people said, OK, these aren't going bankrupt, let me cover my shorts. And then, you know, one thing led to another and a chain reaction, and a company like Seritage that is really not in a great shape, tripled in a couple of weeks. So, it's really interesting dynamics. But we've seen a lot of short squeezes. [laughs] I'd have to say, that's probably a lot of what we've seen in Tesla, especially since the split was announced, is somewhat of a short squeeze. It's definitely not based on fundamentals.

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate mail from Tesla bulls after this, but here, let me give you my Tesla statistics real quick, just because I keep alluding to that. As of July 31st, over 8% of Tesla's outstanding shares were sold short. So, this was before the split was announced. So, 8%. Since that time, you know 8% of Tesla is, you know, in the tens of billions of dollars, I don't have the exact market cap in front of me. Since that time, the stock has gone up by 42%. Imagine if you had -- you know, so that's tens of billions of dollars of stock sold short, and the value of that stock has gone up by 42% since that snapshot.

I mean, Square is another one, I'm not just picking on Tesla. Square is one of my favorite stocks, as you know, and one of yours. Square had 8% short interest, roughly, as of the end of July. Square is up 18% since that time. So, people are losing their money on the shorts, and they're figuring out that it in a market like this where, you know, we've rebounded [laughs] over 50% from the lows, they're figuring out, like, in a market like this, it's not necessarily just based on fundamentals, [laughs] and it's probably best to stay on the sideline if you have a negative opinion on a stock.

Moser: Oh, yeah. I totally agree. I've said it a million times, I'm just not in the business of shorting. Because frankly, it's just too much work, man. Like, I don't want to sit there and monitor something like that. Because like you said, your losses essentially are limitless. And like, if you buy shares in a company and that company turns out to be a total dud, then your maximum loss is 100%, right, you can lose your money, you could lose it all. And that's, we don't want to see that happen, but at least you know there is a maximum loss that exists there. But with shorting, I mean you really are on the hook for potentially multiples of that. And that really is where it becomes difficult, because you may be right, right?

You could present a mathematical argument for shorting a company like Tesla; and I'm not saying short it, I'm not saying buy it, I'm just using it as an example. You could make a mathematical argument for that, and probably a fairly rational one, I think we can all agree. But that still doesn't mean that the market is going to agree with you. You can be right and short and still be totally wrong with what the market gives you. And there's nothing you can do about it.

And I mean, I was looking at this, to go with a couple of those statistics you were mentioning. Amazon shorts this year, have paper losses of $4.6 billion; the stock is up 50% this year. Tesla shorts, paper losses on Tesla of almost $14 billion, which is just amazing to think about, but you know, sometimes people just feel, hey, listen, I'm right, eventually the market will turn around and understand this. But we've seen time and time again, you know there's a psychology at play here, where the market can be irrational far longer than you can remain solvent. And shorting is certainly a way to exploit that. And I'll also say with shorting, a lot of times you'll see the short squeezes come out during earnings reports or when a company releases some type of press release that really, sort of, catalyzes things and tells you this company is going in a good direction, all of a sudden you get some good news and short start closing out their positions left-and-right. And like you said, closing out a short position is essentially, that's buying. And when you see a lot of buying at once, that demand pushes the stock price up and that can really hurt.

And it's also worth remembering too that companies witnessing short squeezes, I mean, that can feel really good if you're along the stock, because everybody likes [laughs] watching their stocks go up. But it's also worth remembering that, you know, sometimes if you can't really explain why the stock is going up, oftentimes it could be something like a short squeeze which, not to say that's a bad thing, but if you can't explain it, that might be a way to make some sense of it.

Frankel: Yeah, I'm actually surprised you say that Tesla shorts have only lost $14 billion this year. Someone just pointed out their market cap right now is $389 billion.

Moser: That's a lot.

Frankel: Yeah. 8% of that is still sold short, and Elon Musk loves picking on Tesla short sellers too. Didn't he have actual shorts, like paint shorts made up to get at shorts.

Moser: Yeah, the ultimate troll move, yeah. And that's just where it is, like, I came to the realization a long time ago, if you feel strongly one way, like, to the bear side, it's really OK just to say, you know what, I'm bearish but I'm not taking a position, I'm not going to go along, I'm not going to short. I'm just kind of understanding this is what it is. I mean, you look at some companies and they have a little bit of a cult following or cult status, where they can defy reason in some instances, and you see that. I mean, it's tough to explain, but you have to acknowledge it exists. There are a lot of great ideas out there, so you just got to know how to pick your battles. But yeah, I've just never been one for jumping into that ring and trying to convince the market that it's wrong, because the market usually, I think, has it right for the most part.

Frankel: Yeah, and I will say, that if you're completely laser-focused that a stock is overvalued and wrong, an alternative to selling short is to just buy a put option; if you're an options guy. And the reason I say that is, I'm not advising shorting or buying put options on anything, but if you buy a put option, which is essentially, you know, it's a short without actually unlimited losses effectively.

Moser: Right, capture downside.

Frankel: Right. So, the most you can lose is how much you're paying to buy the put option. So, that's an alternative if you're, kind of, dead-set like, Tesla is overvalued, period, the end. Which I would be tempted to buy a put option on Tesla, but not with the way it's going right now.

Moser: Well, that would be the only way I would do it.

Frankel: Well, and this is kind of what Warren Buffett said a while ago about cryptocurrencies. He said, if I could buy a put option on them, I would, but I wouldn't short them for a second, because bitcoin could go to $1 million, [laughs] he said, and that would be devastating. He said, I'd buy a put option to bet that it's going to go to zero eventually, but I'm not going to bet against the price altogether.

So, there are ways to short without unlimited losses. And that's not included in the short interest, so you got to figure that everyone who has a put option on Tesla is not included [laughs] in that 8% short interest or the $14 billion of paper losses that you're talking about.

Moser: Yeah, and just one final little piece of advice, before we move on to ones to watch. You know, if you're short a company through options, you know, clarify that. People will get out there and just get on their perch, oh, I'm short this, short, short, short. And then they just, it's like the little asterisk, right, it's the fine print, oh, I'm actually just short via put options. Two very, very different things, OK? So, make sure to clarify.

Frankel: Yeah, and just to clarify, we're saying the put option is usually the smarter way to go.

Moser: I totally agree, I totally agree. It always kills me when, if I see folks get up on their perch and they talk about, you know, how bad this company is, and short, short, short. And then you come to find, they're actually short via puts. That's just a totally different dynamic. You can't get up there on your perch and start talking like that without clarifying because that changes the conversation just a little bit. So, just a piece of advice; you can take it or leave it. You know, it's worth what you paid, but just my two cents.

Frankel: No, that's fair enough.

Moser: So, Matt, before we wrap up, let's talk about ones to watch for the coming week, what is your one to watch this coming week?

Frankel: I am watching a recent IPO that we've talked about on the show called Rocket Companies, they are the parent company of Rocket Mortgage, Quicken Loans. They recently went public. Ticker symbol is RKT. And they've gone up about 50% in the past week or so. That stock has just been on a tear. I wish I had thought about pulling the trigger right after the IPO, but unfortunately, I talked about it on here, so that was out of the question. I think our show was actually on IPO day, so I couldn't do that at all. But I'm watching that, I'm waiting for a pullback to try to get into it, because I like the company long-term. It's an untested company, so if it stays elevated, I'll be happy to let other people have the fun. But at the right price, if it goes anywhere near the IPO price, I'm definitely interested in Rocket Mortgage. And it's a company to watch as it starts to report earnings, because we have no idea what it -- you know, we haven't seen a public earnings report yet from Rocket. So, that's just a company I'm watching over the next few years. And especially with the current price action, it's worth keeping an eye on.

Moser: And what's the ticker?

Frankel: RKT.

Moser: All right. Well, I am going to be keeping an eye on Bill.com this week. Ticker is BILL. And mentioned a few weeks back that earnings were later this month. And so, this week, actually Thursday, earnings come out for Bill.com. Just going to be interested to see how the business is doing in the face of the pandemic. We talked about, at the end of the most recent quarter, they had more than 91,000 customers, they had processed $24.2 billion in total payment volume for the quarter; which I thought was pretty fascinating. So, it's a strong business, it's growing. I think it's got a very compelling developing network effect, particularly in that small- to medium-size business market that it serves. But ultimately looking just to help offices, to help companies digitize and automate their back office financial operations, you know, get that cash, get the checks out of the equation there and really just get back to the electronic transfers and letting technology really, really do the heavy lifting. So, I'd be looking for that earnings report on Thursday.

Matt, as always, I appreciate you joining on such a lovely day, it appears, down there in South Carolina. The rain has stopped here in Virginia just in time for me to think about getting on the road and going to get a puppy. So, I think that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to let you go, and I'm going to take off too, all right?

Frankel: All right. Like, we got all our rain yesterday, [laughs] so it's not like we're just getting off scot-free here.

Moser: All right. Well, that's going to do it for us this week, folks. Remember, you can always reach out to us on Twitter @MFIndustryFocus, or you can drop us an email at [email protected].

As always, people on the program may have interests in the stocks they talk about, and The Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against, so don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear.

Thanks, as always, to Tim Sparks for putting the show together. For Matt Frankel, I'm Jason Moser. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.