Bill Magnuson is the chairman, CEO, and co-founder of Braze, a customer engagement platform that works with some of business's biggest names. In this podcast, Motley Fool analyst Tim Beyers caught up with Magnuson for a conversation about:
- Braze's origin story.
- The power of personalized marketing.
- The company's latest results, and its plans to create even more value in the future.
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This video was recorded on April 14, 2024.
Bill Magnuson: We've really been, as I mentioned earlier, working on a problem that I think is fundamental to capitalism and important for businesses of all kinds and really connected to some really human truths. If you want to build a strong relationship with someone, you should try to understand them as well as you can when you meet them and use that understanding in order to have more relevant interactions with them, and that'll build a stronger relationship. I think that we're in the fundamentals of business and we're trying to work on some fundamental things about human relationships, which means that I think that Braze's approach to this problem is applicable to the vast majority of businesses in the world.
Mary Long: I'm Mary Long and that's Bill Magnuson, CEO and Co-Founder of Braze, a highly customizable customer engagement platform that helps some of the biggest brands and business connect with their customers. My colleague Tim Beyers caught up with Magnuson for a closer look at Braze's orchestration platform. They discuss the benefits of building relationships around people rather than channels. Why Braze is a kin to a high-frequency trading system and what needs to happen for Braze to become a truly great stock.
Tim Beyers: Bill, good morning. Thanks for coming on to talk about Braze. You just had quarterly results, good results. Revenue up 33% year over year. Good growth across the board here, but we'll get to those earnings numbers in a minute. I want to talk a little bit about this company that you've built. Let's go back into the way back machine a little bit and describe what Braze is. But starting from what you saw when you and Jonathan Hyman founded this company, and I think I have it right. Is it 2011 when you founded this company? What was the problem that you saw at that time that informs the company that we see today?
Bill Magnuson: I'll actually take a step back a little bit. I studied computer science at MIT, and I was graduating around 2009. In late 2008 was when Android was about to launch and actually had the good fortune to be able to take a building mobile applications course my senior year there, and we actually had Rich Miner, who was the founder of Android. He would come into our lectures every Friday, and he would bring his dog in, which was pretty awesome. When we were building on pre-released G1 hardware that, you remember that old slider phone with accordion keyboard and [laughs] the roller ball and everything, we started building mobile applications on top of that. Of course, free software also means there was almost no documentation, so I'm not going to lie it was a bit of a struggle. But that gave me an early lens into mobile and really early experience with that. I still remember the first day that I was actually in the middle of a phone call on my BlackBerry Pearl and the battery died on it. I actually was like, I bet you that I can use this deb device that I've been given for this class to be able to finish my phone calls.
I move the sim card over, and of course, it works and I've been an Android user ever since actually. Went from that, graduated, and then moved out to San Francisco and worked at Google in Mountain View. I was working in a Google research projects around Android, which is called Appian Vendor for Android, which actually still exists today. It's a visual programming language for building mobile applications. I was on a team with a number of professors and their former PhD students that they had collected around Google. We worked with a bunch of institutions to be able to help these introductory computer science classes build mobile applications as part of their curriculum. I was working on that project, had early exposure to it. Then I finished my master's and graduated and went back into the finance industry actually. I had worked at Bridgewater Associates, a hedge fund in Connecticut. In 2008, which is obviously an auspicious time to be at a global macro hedge fund. Had gone back. I had some student loans to pay off and everything else, and I spent about 18 months there. But while I was there, mobile kept haunting me and lowering the back. I felt like, well, the finance industry was an interesting place to be, that there was a massive transformational change underfoot, and that I really wanted to be a part of it. John Hyman actually, who is the Braze CTO today and we can talk about that a little bit more. But actually, when we first started, I was the CTO, John was our CIO and we had a third co-founder name Marker Mason, who was the CEO. The three of us together.
I think what we saw was that there was tremendous potential in mobile, but that wasn't being realized to really build businesses and so there were two parts of it. First was this conviction that huge businesses would be born and built to be mobile-first. Of course, that seems laughably obvious now, but in 2011, most of the popular apps in the App Store were things like prank calling soundboards and compass and flashlight apps because I think it had been built through to the operating system yet. Toys, gaming accessory utilities, etc. Those mobile applications also didn't have business models. In fact, ironically, the fact that you would buy an app for $0.99 or dollar 99 in the early days actually was working against us. We were trying to build a toolkit to help mobile app developers be able to engage their audiences over the long term. Help cement habits and relationships. Understand how people are using their mobile app so that they could drive additional engagement and help avoid churn. I used to pitch it at mobile app meet-ups in New York and San Francisco back in 2011, 2012 with the tag line of help turn your app into a business. I remember someone coming up to me and one of those meet-ups and then saying, I want people to stop using my app as soon as possible because after they paid me the dollar 99, that's all the money I'm ever going to make from them. The sooner they stop using the app, the sooner I can stop paying server bills. This was the feedback environment that we launched into in 2011, but we just had that conviction that mobile was going to become more and more a part of people's lives. That you'd be able to build real sustainable businesses on top of that by providing digital services and products inside. Then the second part of it, which came into fruition later, but was always part of the plan as well, was of course, that the wide-scale adoption of mobile by consumers would transform existing businesses. You actually still see that to fast forward it all the way till today.
That early provenance still exists in our customer base where our revenue roughly breaks down 50/50 between commercial, what we call commercial and enterprise, where they're small, young businesses that quit trying to quickly acquire a new customer base. They want to be able to retain those users as they spend dearly to acquire them. They want to be able to understand how their customers are using their product, especially as it's evolving quickly in the early days or as their user base is expanding into new countries and regions or new socioeconomic groups or what have you and the personas that are using their product or changing over time to be able to really stay ahead of that so that their acquisition and retention strategies can keep pace. Then, of course, we've seen mobile really shelf and disrupt every existing vertical in industry. About 50% of our business comes from the enterprise. We're highly diversified across verticals. We really tried to work on a problem that I think is core to capitalism, which is just if you want to build a sustainable business, how do you keep connections with your customers over the long term? How do you agenda the advocacy and loyalty and really having people make your product and service a part of their day-to-day lives or part of their routine so that they can have long-term loyalty? Over the last almost 13 years now, we've been building toward really servicing those two major categories of these born and built TV mobile first and then the enterprises that are being transformed and disrupted by changing consumer behaviors around mobile.
Tim Beyers: It's really interesting and I want to describe how Braze works here. If I can give you, it seems the core innovation was just to build off what you just said there about building customer relationships. One of the key innovations with Braze, if I understand it correctly and I want you to correct me if I don't. Was this idea that if you are going to engage with customers, particularly in mobile first, you have a lot of channels you could build around and most of the existing technology was built around the channel. I have an email marketing thing, and I have a messaging thing and what Braze was built around, again, if I understand it correctly, it was the idea of you have got a customer. Let's let the customer choose what channel they want to use and will build you a platform that allows you to engage with the customer and then you can fine-tune it. Then, however, if they want to engage with you, then you can set it up to engage. Was that the idea that this is broken and we're going to build it around the customer instead of around the channel?
Bill Magnuson: That's exactly right. It's a characterization, except you need to sprinkle a little bit of, I'll just say, ignorance on our part because we didn't actually [laughs] know what the marketing landscape looked like at the time because we weren't markers. We're actually just solving it more from first principles. The problem that you described with how the existing landscape worked is really this classic, you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail problem.
Tim Beyers: Sure.
Bill Magnuson: Which is that when a marketer sits down, if they've got an email marketing solution, they're not asking themselves like, how am I engaging with the customer journey holistically? How do I match together? How the customer wants to interact with me and what my businesses goals are, and find a harmonious way to be able to connect those two? They're just saying, what email am I going to send today? That leads you to the wrong solutions to these problems. When we started, we actually, as I said, we didn't have marketing backgrounds. If you go back to that anecdote I have from the meet-up, it's clear that mobile apps actually didn't have marketing teams in the early days because they didn't have business models, and you don't spend money to amplify a business model when you don't have one. But the overtime, of course, this problem of maintaining strong connections with your customers, doing it through communication and through understanding the data that drives the customer behaviors, that ended up becoming owned primarily by marketing teams or by growth teams, which are these interdisciplinary teams that bring together marketing, engineering, and data science, usually. That evolution over time and this move from the activity of sending messages in silos to, we refer to as, the craft of customer engagement. Where you're really connected to what the customer wants, how they're trying to interact with your product and service. The arrogance of even calling the prior generation of tools, these journey building tools as if the email marketing was in charge of the customer journey. It made sense 10, 15, 20 years ago where most of your email was being read when you're sitting down, probably sitting down at your desk at work, which is where most people had computers. When ExactTarget and Responsys and Neolane, which are the email service providers that make up the marketing clouds of Salesforce, Oracle, and Adobe today, they were literally founded in 1999, 2000, 2001. It was a very different world, very different technology environment. Most people didn't even have computers at home yet, and they would read their email in a relatively uncluttered inbox.
They were probably at work, they were actually focused on it. Compare that to our digital journeys today where it's completely non-linear. It's moving from channel to channel and platform to platform very fluidly. You will show up to interact with the brand at any moment of the day, you do it on your terms, whenever you want to. That is a tremendous opportunity for brands to be able to both understand the customer much more holistically, as well as to be able to communicate with them. But it also creates this strong responsibility that you're beaming yourself directly into someone's personal device at what could be some of the most important moments in their lives. That is, I think, a tremendous responsibility. But also, there's a lot more noise in there too. There's a lot more competition for their attention and their focus. You need to be compelling and relevant and engaging as well. That kind of tension between that huge opportunity, but of course, the high bar pulled from a responsibility and from a performance perspective, from our standpoint, also meant that we just needed to take a much more sophisticated approach to this problem than had existed before. Braze is actually architected much more like a high-frequency trading system than it is like marketing technology in the sense that if we think about the problem of a high-frequency trading system, effectively, what you're trying to do is you've got new data points that are constantly stilling in. Whether it's every single tick of the stock ticker throughout the day, maybe it's the new jobs report as it flows in, new macroeconomic indicators, etc., those new data points come in and then what you're going to try to do as quickly as possible is take the new data point to update your current view of the world, the model that you're holding for a particular equity or particular market or what have you, and then you're going to take your trading strategy and apply that to the model. That's going to then output an action that one or more actions that you want to take. It might be a buy or sell or might feed into some other models that need to resolve that. Then you want to execute that trade as quickly as possible.
Then there's two feedback loops that happen. One of them is the synchronous feedback loop of actually watching whether the market moves and the trade is still available and maybe you'll make connect. Then there's the asynchronous one where the reporting goes out and you analyze that over time in order to then simulate new strategies, and you've feed those back in. The same analog exists in customer engagement. A customer is using your product or service, when Braze deploys in our customers, we integrate directly into their mobile apps or into their websites. Someone or their connected fitness products or connected TVs or what have you, we work across all these different channels, but basically anywhere that consumers interacting digitally. They take an action in the mobile app, that new data point flows into the top of our system, we then update their user model, where we combine that new action and the evolving contexts around them along with our existing view of them. We then take all the engagement strategies that our customers have programmed into Braze and we apply them to the new state of that model. That might output different actions that we need to take, including sending a message, canceling a scheduled message, moving someone to the next step in one of their canvases or what have you. Then there's the synchronous part, which is that customers, of course, are on a non-linear journey and they're moving from channel to channel and platform to platform, and so we want to see how they engaged with that message because doing so they might click on an email and go into a mobile app, or they might be going from the web into the mobile, or they might have now shown up in their SMS inbox or maybe they're chatting with me on WhatsApp or what have you. That ability to coherently move from place to place and be able to flow synchronously with the full knowledge of everything going on is a really important part of that. Then of course, asynchronously we want to be able to get people real-time reporting so they can evolve their strategies and update them, test, and experiment. That's also an important place where our machine learning is able to then churn through those results and be able to come up with more predictive matching and other sorts of optimizations. All of that lives in an event-driven stream processor where every single data point that flows in is considered one at a time. They're all executed on in real time. I think that that's both a technology shift, of course, because obviously the systems that were built back around 2000 were not built on top of event-driven stream processing, and indeed, the vast majority of the marketing technology landscape, even today, is still being built on top of batch processing and relational databases and what have you. But it's also a reflection of the reality that we live in in mobile, which is that if you're going to respond to the customer who's moving through the journey on their terms in a non-linear fashion, showing up at any moment of the day, and wanting to be able to be interactively communicated with in a way that's relevant and personalized, you need to show up with really advanced technology in order to meet that challenge. That event-driven stream processor that lives in the flow of the data and actually understands the context of it as it evolves in real time, that's the purpose-built technology to be able to solve that problem. That's where Braze started all the way back in 2011 and we've of course been scaling that all the way to today.
Tim Beyers: The growth has been amazing. But before I hit you with some numbers here because there's been a lot of growth in the business, I want to make sure I pause and translate a bid for those who are non-technical users here. What I heard from you, and I think you just explained pretty elegantly actually, why every time I go to the grocery store and I come back, the first thing I see on my phone is what? It's a new app or it's a new pop-up on my phone from Nevada. I wonder if they're still a customer.
Bill Magnuson: They are.
Tim Beyers: That's not surprising at all, Bill. They're generally incredibly relevant. Now, they're trying to get me something that I may not want to buy, but it's adjacent. Probably adjacent to something I have bought or I may have looked at, which is very interesting. What I heard, if I want to translate this down, is that this akin to a high-frequency trading system. Braze is looking at a ton of data points doing event stream processing. In other words, stream processing is real time. I'm not just taking data, archiving it into the system in the back, the database, then I'm going to look at it later. The data is coming in, it's streamed, and I can take actions on it immediately. That's the difference here. When you talk about on earnings calls, I want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly, you say we have an opportunity to do these legacy migrations, legacy upgrades. That's what you're talking about. Taking somebody that's had an archival system and say, look at how you can benefit from a real-time system like Braze. Am I describing that correctly?
Bill Magnuson: That's a massive part of it. The key in understanding that is just in really grokking event-driven. Which is that of an event flowing in, and as you said, the first thing you do is you go write it down, and then you have a separate system that goes and looks at it. That's batch processing in the sense that you have separated processes that are storing into the database, and then there's another system that's looking at it in the database. You can make those batches smaller and smaller. You can look at it, instead of once an hour or once every 15 minutes, you could even be looking at it every minute. But there's a difference between that 2-stage process of write it down and then have a system of processes versus event-driven, which is, hey, a new data point just showed up. Now I'm going to execute on it.
Tim Beyers: Got it.
Bill Magnuson: That's the difference between living in the flow of the data versus having those stages be separated. Obviously, if you think about that, it's certainly more expensive and harder to scale living in the flow of the data. As a marketing tool as well, we do a lot of stuff that is operational, that's interactive with the user, but we also, if you look at media and entertainment, breaking news use cases, in the sports industry, big events and major sports games, etc., or even just your weekly promotional messages that are going to go out or maybe with delivery, trying to get ahead of people's lunch hour in a particular country or region or what have you. There's all these reasons that people, even with a event-driven real-time system, would still send bulk messages all at once. If you think about the engineering challenge of that when you also are doing in product messaging, we get this request to send out a massive number of messages to everyone in customer base, which we do as fast as we possibly can and Braze is a very high-scale, highly parallel system that does that quite quickly. As people receive those messages, they're all opening the applications at the same time as well. That's a massive spike in load. As they come into the application, we also render content inside the product. We can do surveys, we do interstitials and product. We also have a persistent message feed called content cards, which can be incorporated into an inbox or into carousels or other parts of the product experience. All of that also gets personalized as the user is opening the product, so really living in the flow of the user behavior in ways where you can have unpredictable scale, pretty hard technical challenge, and we actually just last week released some new numbers from our calendar year 2023 to put some scale around that. We processed 7.5 trillion incoming API calls last year.
Tim Beyers: I was going to ask you about this. What is happening when you have 7.5 trillion API calls? Then you had something like 2.5 trillion. There were some ridiculous numbers in here, 2.6 trillion outgoing actions, 7.5 trillion API calls. What is happening there, Bill?
Bill Magnuson: Well, the 2.6 trillion outgoing actions, the vast majority of those are literally messages being sent to customers across all these channels that we've mentioned, whether it's mobile push notifications, web push notifications, email, SMS, WhatsApp messages, we're in products we might be delivering surveys, rendering interstitials, providing little dismissible cite-ups or rendering content cards. Messaging across a lot of different places. Then when we talk about actions, those can be other generic things, and they're usually either web service calls through something called the webhook, which allows you to generically orchestrate a lot of different things. It might be something internal to your own system. Maybe you want to generate a voucher code for someone. Maybe you have your own internal inbox system that you've built for a secure message center like at a bank or in the healthcare industry. Maybe your people even use it to process returns or to ship things to people as long as there's an API on top of those shipping systems or to coordinate with other POS systems to be able to bring data back to the actual salesperson working in a store. A lot of flexibility there, as well as data manipulation jobs that might be transforming data. A lot of times when a user takes an action, if you consider the simple example of a dating application, you might actually want to update information in someone else's profile and not even necessarily just in your own. That ability to then trigger an action elsewhere in the graph of users, or there's actually also places where people will reach into the pay that ecosystem as well. There's been a lot going on with the death of the cookie and the IDFA changes from Apple's app tracking transparency framework. That ability to actually say, oh hey, I just saw this person show up on my mobile app, let's stop running ads against them as soon as possible so we can stop wasting money on them, we've reengaged them. There's some really high ROI use cases in that as well, where you take these first-party experiences and you use them to help orchestrate some of your ad buying. That 2.6 trillion number is the combination of all of those things, then the seven-and-a-half trillion is all of the times that we've got data flowing into the system. I mentioned that we're integrated into our customers apps and websites and connected fitness products and what have you. Every time a user is taking an action, opening one of those, clicking on this button using this feature, all of those things, those are going to trigger incoming messages or incoming API calls to Braze, which we will then immediately take action on with our event-driven stream processor.
Tim Beyers: Is it fair to describe Braze, then I want to pivot to the just completed fiscal year here, it sounds like an orchestrator that's ingesting a bunch of data and also executing a bunch of actions for the purpose of doing a better job, of using every dollar that you put to work to engage a customer. Just getting better ROI out of every dollar you're going to put to work for engaging a customer or a prospect. Is that a good way to think about what Braze is fundamentally?
Bill Magnuson: Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on. We're trying to just do a better job, deliver better relevance to customers, help them explore the products and services on offer from each individual brand that we work with so that they can make it more part of their lives. They can become passionate advocates. They can develop habits around it. You can avoid churn, you can help drive additional purchases, you can help cement subscriptions. If we're in the health and fitness or the health and wellness area, helping people adopt those habits they really want to. To learn a new language or learn a new skill or keep themselves healthy and be out hiking trails or riding their Peloton bike or what have you. A lot of different places that this comes into play, but fundamentally, I think you nailed it.
Tim Beyers: Let's talk about the financials here. I'm just going to give some numbers. About 472 million in revenue for the year. That's up 33%. Gross margins hit just about 69%. The operating margin's still negative 31%, that's about 10 points improved year over year. It does look like you're getting some efficiency there. The remaining performance obligation up significantly. I think of remaining performance obligation as a backlog that's now close to 640 million. About 64% of that is current, so within the next 12 months. Really interesting stuff here. You now have, Bill, in terms of your overall customer base, you reported 2,044 customers for the fiscal year and the current quarter, 202 are now generating about half a million, at least, in terms of annual recurring revenue. That's a little under 10% of the customer base. One of the ways I've thought about just from an investment perspective, what has to happen in order for Braze to be a great stock for members here at The Motley Fool is those big customers have to get more and more fervent about Braze. They've got to make bigger and bigger commitments to Braze. How do you think you create value? Like how does Braze create value such that shareholders are going to see it over the next ten years? Is it cultivating that bigger commitment to the Braze platform? Is it growing the overall pie? Is it a combination of both? How do you see it? What's the growth look like?
Bill Magnuson: There's a few different dimensions of this and one of the things that I love about the Braze business is just how diversified we are and how we've already proven that diversification. Braze's history is not one where we found a nice little niche and we milked it for all it was worth and as that one started to run out, we had to jump to the next one. We've really been, as I mentioned earlier, working on a problem that I think is fundamental to capitalism and important for businesses of all kinds and really connected to some really human truths. If you want to build a strong relationship with someone, you should try to understand them as well as you can when you meet them, and use that understanding in order to have more relevant interactions with them and that'll build a stronger relationship. I think that we're in the fundamentals of business and we're trying to work on some fundamental things about human relationships, which means that I think that Brazes approach to this problem is applicable to the vast majority of businesses in the world. When you look at our customer base, mid-40s percent of our revenue comes from outside of the United States. It's a pretty high number for a company of our age, and it's actually been relatively true through most of our history because mobile has been such a broadly deployed technology. We also have no meaningful concentration in any given vertical. Our Top 5 or 6 verticals are all in the high teens or low 20s percent of overall revenue. We've got another half a dozen verticals that are meaningful and up and coming, and Braze has really shown an ability to solve use cases across businesses of all kinds across the entire consumer experience. We also successfully sell the same piece of technology to the world's largest global multinationals. I mentioned that we had our first eight-figure customer in this most recent earnings, and so we're talking about that million-dollar-plus ARR customer with one of the world's largest conglomerates. All the way down to one person teams that are at young, Ecom, Shopify start-ups or newly launching mobile apps or what have you, where we have a one person marketing team that's successful using Braze in order to drive their launch. I think you look at that, you've got tremendous diversity of use cases, you have a platform that's proven an ability to sell across a wide array verticals. They've got a massive global footprint and one that continues to grow.
We just announced that we've expanded with new hiring of new go-to-market people in both Korea and into Latin America, as well as we continue to build on our international success and you also have a technology platform that is enterprise-ready, but not in the negative sense of that word, in the sense that it's heavy weighted, clunky and can only be used by enterprises. It's actually something that can be utilized by the world's largest and most complicated multinationals and is also very well wielded by these small, but my marketing teams that often can only be one person. I think that when you look at our growth potential, it's important to realize that we've actually proven an ability to sell into a substantially larger market opportunity than we are currently penetrated. When you consider the potential number of customers we have across those three dimensions and then you take a step back and you say, wait a minute, that company only has 2,000 customers today. Obviously, there's a huge amount of future customer growth that we'll continue to sell into. The other side of it is the continued expansion of the product surface area over time, and so when we first started out, we were focused in mobile, we sold the product that had the different mobile channels as well as email, and that was the starting set in 2011 and that was MobilePush notifications as well as some of the end product stuff that we've been talking about. Over time, we've expanded to include other channels, we added Wedbush and we put it in mobile app products all the way into websites as well. We've then since expanded those in connected fitness products, in connected TVs, we've also expanded our messaging options from email to include SMS. More recently we launched on WhatsApp, we're working on LINE right now as well and we'll continue to move through the premium Messenger market throughout the rest of the world. We look ahead to additional RCS adoption and certainly anticipate that we'll be expanding our SMS product, through SMS and MMS product to include that in the future.
In Product, you're seeing continued expansion there as our content cards become more flexible and powerful to continue building on top of surveys, we also launched feature flags last fall, which is a product primarily used by product and engineering groups in order to drive additional experimentation or to be able to do various things that release time to modify the products experienced as a customer is using it. You're seeing an expansion of the messaging channels that we're interacting with as well, all of which provide not just an ability for us to up-sell existing customers because, of course, they're going to want to adopt these new channels as they become available, but they're actually also really great starting points for new customers. Braze actually, has a lot of customers that don't have mobile apps at all because we have channel sets that are highly relevant and if you go back to your synthesis of everything Braze does, ultimately being an orchestration platform that helps with personalization and irrelevance and then can do that across whichever channels that makes sense, means that we are able to sell to and work with companies that have a wide array of different digital touch-points for their customers. That's been an important part of us being able to expand into additional verticals as well. When we look at that, you said a few things that was, hey, do we need to grow existing customers? Yes, and we do and we will, both because we're not fully penetrated in our full product surface area across the vast majority of our existing customers. But also even in those customers that have been with us a long time and have been using us to our fullest. I bought it as a great example of that that you brought up, that we continue adding new channels every year as well that they can continue to adopt and grow into, as well as additional orchestration capabilities. I haven't even touched on our interconnection to the data-science ecosystem that we've been building, and working on quite a bit over the last couple of years. Lot of growth opportunities as well as a lot of great new starting points. I think that when you look at that growth path for Braze and say, hey, what makes us a great stock, what makes us an opportunity that I believe we're still very much in the early earnings of. I think you look no further than just how diversified the business is already today and then that 2,000 customer number, to imagine how big that gets.
Mary Long: As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks we talk about, and the Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against, so don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. I'm Mary Long. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.