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Date
Thursday, July 24, 2025 at 9:00 p.m. ET
Call participants
Chief Financial Officer — Chris Colisano
Chairman and Executive Chairman (incoming) — Ken Moelis
Incoming Chief Executive Officer — Navid Mahmoodzadegan
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Takeaways
Revenue-- $365 million in revenue for Q2 2025, up 38% versus the prior year period driven by growth in mergers and acquisitions (M&A) and capital markets advisory.
First-half revenue-- $672 million in revenue for the first half of 2025, up 39% from the prior year period due to expanded M&A and capital markets activity.
Compensation expense ratio-- 69%, unchanged from the prior quarter.
Non-compensation expense ratio-- 14.4% non-compensation expense ratio.
Corporate tax rate-- 29.5% corporate tax rate (accrued), consistent with the underlying tax rate in Q1 2025.
Dividend-- $0.65 per share regular quarterly dividend declared; unchanged from the most recent quarterly payout.
Balance sheet-- $475 million in cash and liquid investments; no outstanding debt.
M&A revenue mix-- The quarterly split was "very close" to last quarter's approximately two-thirds M&A and one-third non-M&A revenues, per Moelis.
Private capital advisory (PCA) build-out-- Three senior PCA hires joined, with the stated goal of becoming a "dominant player" in secondary capital solutions.
Capital markets performance-- Achieved record capital markets revenues for the first half of 2025.
CEO transition-- Announced shift from Ken Moelis to Navid Mahmoodzadegan as CEO; Moelis to remain executive chairman with strategic client focus.
Hiring focus-- Ongoing recruiting in PCA and selective lateral hiring in high-priority sectors aligned with high total addressable markets (TAMs).
Restructuring activity-- Restructuring and liability management activity has trended "flattish to slightly down" since early April, with management attributing this to dealmaking and liquidity moving candidates from restructuring to M&A and capital markets transactions.
Compensation policy-- No formulaic approach for the comp ratio in 2025; comp ratio to remain flexible and driven by topline revenue trends.
Excess capital-- Chairman Moelis said, "We recognize that we probably have more excess capital than we want or need." adding stock repurchase "will probably play more prominently" in capital return strategies.
Summary
Moelis & Company(MC 2.18%) reported record revenue growth, citing rising activity in M&A and capital markets as key contributors. Management emphasized that business momentum has improved steadily since a "temporary disruption" in April, with a revival in new business origination and a pipeline now near record levels. The company is executing a targeted expansion of its Private Capital Advisory platform, aiming for market leadership and signaled aggressive hiring in this area as a continued strategic priority. Leadership transition was formally announced, with Navid Mahmoodzadegan taking over as CEO and Ken Moelis remaining engaged as executive chairman with a client and strategy focus. The board acknowledged current excess capital and discussed increasing shareholder returns, with stock repurchases likely to become a larger part of capital allocation, according to management commentary on the earnings call.
Moelis characterized the recovery in deal activity as broad-based across sectors, not limited to any specific industry vertical.
The PCA business is projected by management as a "third or fourth leg" of the firm’s revenue base, with "early stages of it being a growth market."
Management plans to flex headcount growth according to major sector opportunities and available "difference makers" rather than strictly following market cycles.
The company reiterated a sustained focus on internal talent development, with 40% of managing directors promoted from within.
Moelis confirmed that PCA bankers are ramping revenue contribution "more quickly" than typical M&A hires due to strong pre-existing sponsor client relationships.
Industry glossary
Private capital advisory (PCA): Advisory services focused on secondary and primary capital solutions for private equity sponsors, including continuation vehicles and capital raising in private markets.
Total addressable market (TAM): The aggregate revenue opportunity available for a product or service, referenced here to guide firm investment into sectors with the largest potential returns.
Continuation vehicle: A secondary fund structure used by private equity sponsors to provide liquidity or extend ownership in existing portfolio investments.
Full Conference Call Transcript
Chris Colisano: Thanks, Matt, and good afternoon, everyone. On today's call, I will go through our financial results. Ken will comment further on the business, and Navid will provide a few remarks before we open the call for Q&A. We reported $365 million of revenues in the second quarter, an increase of 38% versus the prior year period, and our highest second quarter revenues on record. Our first half revenues of $672 million were up 39% from the prior year period. The year-over-year increase in revenue was due to growth in M&A and capital markets. Moving to expenses, our second quarter compensation expense ratio was accrued at 69%, consistent with last quarter. Our second quarter non-compensation expense ratio was 14.4%.
We continue to anticipate the full-year growth of non-compensation expense to be approximately. Moving to taxes, our corporate tax rate was accrued at 29.5%, consistent with the underlying tax rate in Q1 prior to the discrete tax benefit related to divesting of equity awards. Regarding capital allocation, the board declared a regular quarterly dividend of $0.65 per share, consistent with the prior period. And lastly, we continue to maintain a strong balance sheet with cash and liquid investments of $475 million and no debt. I will now turn the call over to Ken.
Ken Moelis: Thanks, Chris. Good afternoon, everyone. Our revenues in the second quarter and first half of the year reflect investments we've made over the last few years, our globally integrated platform, and our team's relentless focus on executing for our clients. We entered the second half of the year in a significantly improved transaction environment since we last spoke in April, which was right in the heart of the post-Liberation Day market chaos. In retrospect, Liberation Day did cause a temporary disruption in activity. However, our new business origination remained healthy, and our pipeline currently sits near record levels.
Both our strategic and sponsor clients are moving forward with transactions driven by technology disruption and the need for sponsors to recycle capital. The investments we've made in capital markets have continued to pay off as well, as our team achieved record revenues in the first half of the year. The team enters the second half of the year with strong momentum as investor risk appetite grows and capital is generally available. Of the leading private capital advisory bankers joined our firm, underscoring our ambition to build the premier platform in secondary and primary capital solutions for sponsors.
We continue to believe there is a significant opportunity for us to grow this franchise, and we plan to aggressively scale into a market leader. Finally, our capital structure advisory team continues to work on a steady amount of liability management engagements across a range of industries, and our investments in our creditor-side franchise are beginning to show results. In addition to our hiring in PCA, we welcomed one technology-focused and one business services MD, both based in Europe during the second quarter. In summary, we entered the back half of the year with momentum across the business, and I'm confident in the team's ability to execute for our clients.
Before I pass it to Navid, I'd like to make a few remarks about our upcoming CEO transition. With the firm in such a strong position, financially, strategically, and culturally, the board and I determined this was the right time to elevate our next generation of leadership. Navid founded the firm with me eighteen years ago and has been a key driver of our most impactful growth initiatives and was one of the best strategic advisors I've ever worked with, making him well-positioned to lead us to the next phase of growth as CEO.
In my role as Executive Chairman, I'll spend even more time with clients in the boardrooms around the world advising on critical strategic decisions, while also remaining involved in the firm's long-term strategy. And although I am excited to spend more time with our clients, I'll certainly miss my time with you on these quarterly earnings calls. I know you've been hearing my voice for a long time. Know you'll be in good hands with Navid when he gets the mic at our quarter three earnings call. So with that, I'll pass it to Navid for a few more remarks.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Thanks so much, Ken. I'm honored to step into the role of CEO at a firm that I've had the privilege of building and helping to build from the very beginning. As CEO, I will continue to focus on the principles that have been key to our success over the past eighteen years. Intense focus on clients, investing in our firm's talent, fostering innovation through the adoption of new ideas and technologies, and of course driving returns for our shareholders. We head into the next phase of growth with the highest quality talent and most extensive capabilities for clients in our history.
I'm extremely excited about the opportunities ahead and look forward to working more with all of you in my new role. Operator, I think you can now open it up for questions.
Operator: Thank you. And ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, it's also.
Devin Ryan: Oh, thanks. Hi, Ken. Hi, Chris, and hi, Navid. First off, welcome, and congratulations on the new role and to you as well, Ken. Always enjoy the calls, but looking forward to not being on as well.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Thank you.
Devin Ryan: Guess, maybe just first place, wanna start is on sponsors reengaging and heard some of the prepared remarks, but just love to get a little more flavor around like, the progression of reengagement and just maybe even from a sector perspective, are you seeing it across kind of all sectors? You know, obviously, areas like technology are still dealing with higher fire rounds. So are there certain sectors that maybe aren't coming back fast? Just love to get a little bit of a flavor for kind of the level of reengagement and then what that looks like in different industries as well. Thanks.
Ken Moelis: Okay. So first, let's start with the macro, which was I think, last time we did our phone call, we were in the middle of a pretty significant market downturn. And you know, it wasn't just the market. You had real concerns about tariffs and how they would affect industry. You know, sometimes it's just valuation markets and interest rates, but that also had operational issues involved with what was gonna happen. We probably reached our highest point of backlog on March thirty-first. And then April second happened. And what I'd say happened is deals that were in pipeline and in progress kept going.
But I think from about April second to five or six weeks later, middle of May, there were a lot of people sitting on their hands. Transactions were getting done, but not a lot of things got started. Then it started back gradually, but I'd say that it's really accelerated in the past five or six weeks. I think we've seen a better market every week starting four or five weeks ago. And I would say we're kind of back or as of now, very close to the level of enthusiasm that was prior to April second, you know, March thirty-first. Now it's building back.
You know, you did have a few weeks there, so the pipeline is not at all-time highs. But it feels like the energy is there. On the sectors, I think it's pretty much across the board. I mean, there may be one or two, you know, again, I don't see every transaction in every industry across the board, so I'm talking about our subset. But I'd say we're pretty strong across sectors.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Yeah, Devin. I think there's still some sectors that are, you know, right in the sweet spot of some of the trade uncertainty, you know, maybe some of the parts of consumer, you know, parts of industrials, manufacturing. But as Ken said, we know, I think the strength we're seeing is more broad than narrow.
Devin Ryan: Yep. Okay. That's good to hear. And then just for my follow-up, wanna hit on the private capital advisory business and opportunity. I know you guys have made some senior additions there and you highlighted that in the script. Just love to get a sense of how big of an addressable market you think that specific business is. I know it's important for just the firm level, but just you think about the addressable market? How big of a business could this be for Moelis? It's pretty big at some of your peers, but this is a couple hundred million dollars revenue opportunity.
And then just how many more resources do you need to put there to get this business to where you think the potential is? You know, do you have now what you need, or should we expect to see a lot more additions kind of follow after from these senior hires? Thanks.
Ken Moelis: Well, I agree with you. We see it as a, in a leadership position, it's a couple of hundred million dollars or more, more than we think, the leadership positions. We think we've hired the leadership that we feel very comfortable will get us to that position. We have more to hire throughout the system. And we're gonna be aggressive on it. We have gone aggressively, and we didn't hire just one of the top players in the industry. We hired three. We think this could be very strong.
By the way, it's a couple of hundred million dollars to the top of the market right now in terms of or more than as I said, it might be more than that. I think it is more than that. And I think we're in the early stages of it being a growth market. So we're pretty bullish on it. We think of it as a, you know, you could think of it as a third or fourth leg on the firm in terms of where we think the size of that market could be.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: And it's also, I should've said, it's also in addition to just the direct revenue opportunity that Ken outlined. It's having that capability in secondaries, continuation vehicles is just very strategic for dialogues with private equity firms and, you know, ability to provide holistic solutions, you know, for those firms. It not only creates a revenue opportunity, but it also helps our M&A business. And so it's just a capability. It's just critical for us to scale and, you know, be very, very strong at. Which we're well on the way to doing, we think.
Devin Ryan: Yep. I appreciate that. Yeah. It seems very complimentary, but thanks for taking my questions.
Operator: Next up is Ken Worthington from JPMorgan.
Ken Worthington: Hi. Good afternoon. Navid, thank you for your comments on your priorities. Ken mentioned that, you know, you're here to kind of usher in the next phase of growth for Moelis. What does this next phase of growth look like? What would you see your focus really being? Where are you paying attention, you know, most thoughtfully to? In what areas do you feel like you wanna amplify as you think about this next phase of growth?
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Sure. Well, look, I think the first, you know, comment is, you know, the strategy that we've been playing for the last couple of years very much is, you know, the strategy that we've all been developing together that I expect to continue to carry on. So what are the elements of that? You know, first, let's make sure that our investments are made in the highest TAMs, the biggest TAMs, where we have the most opportunity to really drive, you know, revenue growth. That's why we did things like invest heavily in technology group, oil and gas, and now PCA, and before that, capital markets. So we're gonna continue to look for those big opportunities.
Second, we wanna make sure that we're attracting, when we do lateral hiring, you know, what I call difference makers, you know, elite players who really move the needle with clients, who bring franchises that we think are really accretive to our firm and to our, you know, global network. And, you know, making sure we're doing that and executing that at the really high levels is, you know, gonna be critical to, you know, our success.
And then third, you know, which is a really important pillar, you know, that helped build this firm, is, you know, making sure that, you know, we continue to have the best culture, one where everyone's collaborating and kind of bringing the best of themselves to our clients. And then making sure that this internal talent development engine that we're really proud of, you know, where forty percent of our MDs are internally promoted MDs, including some of our highest producers. You know, that engine continues to operate at a very high level.
Ken Worthington: Thank you. And I think you and Ken both talked about the economy being in possibly the next leg of a strong period of growth. Do you increase the pace of investment and increase the, you know, pace of new hiring from what you have seen more recently? Or is it really about kind of leveraging the elevated pace of investments that you've really been, you know, focused on over the last two years and sort of letting things kind of play out? Like, which sort of scenario is more likely for you to pursue over the next one to two years?
Ken Moelis: Probably. Because I slow down. You know, I think overall, it might feel about the same pace. We're gonna accelerate into things like PCA. So you're gonna see us be very aggressive in the private capital advisory group. But I, you know, Navid I'll say this. Navid was a major force behind the tech group hire. And that's been nothing but extremely successful. I'll just leave it at that. The energy group we hired down in Houston has been a spectacular success. We've industrials, so I think you'll see it about the same level. It'll be very aggressive in certain areas, like, as we go to finish out our private capital group.
And you'll continue to see the same pace, I think, of managing directors in white spaces around the organization. But it might feel pretty aggressive just because of what we're gonna do in PCA, I think.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Yeah. I think the only thing I would add to that is, look, you know, we're not growing for the sake of just growing and adding headcount. We wanna make sure we're hiring the best people in the world to help us build these franchises. And, you know, sometimes that's not market specific. It can happen in a down market where those people become available, like, with technology, and it can happen in an up market. And I think what we've done is make sure we have the financial resources, clean balance sheet, you know, to make sure we can do it under all environments. Right? And so I think we wanna lean into growth.
As I said, big TAMs, great people. And sometimes that'll happen in up markets, and sometimes it'll happen when the market doesn't feel great. And that's why we keep the flexibility to do that.
Ken Worthington: Great. Thank you.
Operator: The next question today comes from James Yaro, Goldman Sachs.
James Yaro: Thanks for taking the questions. I guess this is a question for both of you. But there's a lot of focus, I'd say, in the market around this, I don't know what we would call it, a big bang in of M&A and IPO activity that could occur post-Labor Day. What do you make of that of the post-Labor Day outlook? And do you really think things could come back that quickly in a big way?
Ken Moelis: Things are definitely coming back. I mean, it was interesting. The early part of June, remember, a lot of deals there were no deals really started between April second and a certain day. There was a lot of people sitting on their hands. So when you look at your new business activity, and I apologize for the fire engine going right by the window. But so then you saw those were the deals that would have started in April. You know, that would have registered in our new business activities sometime in late May, early June.
But what we're seeing is every week within June just gets stronger and stronger and stronger as you get further and further away from Liberation Day. So, look, the S&P 500 is getting close to 6,400. I mean, that's not just a rebound from Liberation Day. That is a significant uptick. We haven't seen rates come down yet. I don't we're not predicting a big bang, but I am predicting that if there's not an external event from here on in, the market is improving almost daily. And the activity level and the amount of transactions people want to do is definitely improving, and you can see it almost daily.
So, again, I don't see a big bang, but I see a really steadily improving market.
James Yaro: You know, I will say that one of the reasons I know you're an ex-banker is that even though there's that loud fire truck there, you're still able to fill in those comments. So we appreciate that. And, obviously, we will miss you on the call. Just making sure it wasn't an ambulance coming from me. That was the only thing that would have disturbed the whole thing. Exactly. Undisturbed. Unperturbed. Okay. Great. Just one last follow-up here. So, look, you're investing a lot into the private capital advisory, and that's growing fast right now.
Maybe could you just help us think through the guardrails around the build-out as we head towards the environment that's potentially, you know, more characterized by regular way M&A and IPO, which I could imagine could at least slow the growth rate in secondaries.
Ken Moelis: Look, the guardrails is we're very excited, and we've now gotten to spend on-the-ground time with the three most senior leadership team. And we like them. We think they're real business builders. And remember, we're not sitting with two hundred people in the space yet. We have a desire to get there if the market is as good as we think there is. We have a desire to have a large team and be a dominant player. But I think there we'll all be watching that.
I think it's a product that will find a way to be relevant and is not said, and I think you have to show up when talking about the assets that are in private equity and in sponsor ownership, you have to be able to offer a series of different alternatives. And that in many of the spots, that will be an alternative that will be relevant. It may not be the one picked, but it's important that you be able to execute it in order to outline to people what their options are. And effectively position it. So I think we will follow their lead.
And right now, we're not overcapitalized or overpeopled in that space at all, so I'm not worried about it getting slower. I'm worried about us getting up to speed is my main worry right now that we hire the people and the team to execute. And again, I'm an optimist on this. I think that product will be large. And it will be bigger over the years.
James Yaro: Great. Alright. Well, thanks so much, Ken. It's been great working with you, and thank you so much for the insights. And Navid, looking forward to working with you.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Same here.
Operator: Your next question today is from Brendan O'Brien from Wolfe Research.
Brendan O'Brien: Good afternoon, and thanks for taking my question. Just to start, you know, you mentioned the strength in capital markets and advisory driving, you know, the growth year to date. Or I just wanted to drill down a bit on restructuring activity and to see a sense as to how that has trended since April second and what your expectations are for that part of the business from here.
Ken Moelis: It's, you know, for this year, it's trended flattish to slightly down. My guess is it continues to trend slightly down. And I think part of it, by the way, is you're seeing the other side of that and the benefits in our capital markets and our M&A. So what happens in a really good market when the S&P 500 gets to 6,400 and private capital has just a tidal wave of liquidity coming into private credit is that the marginal company that would go through a liability management or restructuring gets purchased in an M&A deal or refinanced.
So I think we've always tried to put our capital markets kind of together with our restructuring business in the numbers because I do think, you know, it's sort of a choice. And I always say this, almost every CEO, everybody I every CFO I know would rather do a financing than a restructuring. And so given the opportunity and the availability of capital, I think some of it, that marginal amount that in a bad market would be reported as a restructuring and liability management revenues now moving into capital markets or even M&A.
Brendan O'Brien: Helpful color. And then I guess for my follow-up, I just wanted to touch on the comp ratio. You know, you've had a really strong first half. It sounds like momentum should build from here. However, as you mentioned, you've been aggressively and will continue to aggressively lean into recruiting as you build out the PCA business. And your deferred comp amortization is up over 40% year on year in one Q. Oh, well, I understand the investment will pay off over time. I just wanted to get a sense as to how we should think about your ability to flex your comp ratio as the revenue backdrop begins to improve.
Ken Moelis: I think we're gonna have the flexibility, and it's all top-line driven. And as said, the growth I think we have embedded in the firm through all those investments we made is pretty substantial. We didn't change it. I don't think that a quarter was enough evidence to go trying to change it on a, you know, on a moment-by-moment basis. I think you get caught sort of jumping around a little too much. So we decided to leave the comp ratio where it is. We are hoping that the year continues to build out the way it is. We've got a lot of time left.
We just didn't think the evidence of a quarter to try to fine-tune it right now. We'll do that in the back half of the year.
Brendan O'Brien: That's helpful. Thank you for taking my questions, and Navid, congrats on the new role. And, Ken, congrats on the new role as well. You'll be missed.
Ken Moelis: Thanks.
Operator: Your next question today comes from Ryan Kenny from Morgan Stanley.
Ryan Kenny: Hi. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Just a follow-up there on the comp ratio. Is there a formula we should think about for the rest of the year? I know last year we had a formula, and it's unclear whether that still applies for this year. Any update there?
Ken Moelis: No. Joe's left, and I'm no longer stuck with Joe's formula. Oh, kidding. The formula worked beautifully last year because we were coming off of a very different environment. And this year, there's no formula. I, you know, I think it's gonna be driven by top line. We have these investments. We have a great set of people on the ground. And I think it's gonna be a derivative of how much we're able to drive on the top line.
Ryan Kenny: Alright. Thank you.
Operator: The next question is from Alex Bond from KBW.
Alex Bond: Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for taking my questions. Firstly, I know we've talked or you've talked today on the call, you know, extensively about the build-out on the PCA team. But just curious if there are any other or, you know, what other areas outside of there where you are particularly focused on hiring currently?
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Look. There are other, you know, spaces and sectors where I think we could, you know, add great talent. I don't know that I wanna be super specific, you know, on this call, but I would say we do have an active, you know, set of dialogues with candidates, you know, that we think could be great on the platform. And, you know, I do think, you know, one of the things we wanna do is continue to, you know, build those pipelines and, you know, that's a full, you know, year-round effort in ensuring we're having the right dialogues with the right people around other spaces.
There's still, you know, despite our growth and despite investments we made, there's still lots of areas and lots of companies we're not covering. And lots of spaces where, you know, we have franchises that can be built. And so, you know, as I said, we wanna focus on the great people and wanna focus on the biggest opportunities, and that's where we're constantly having dialogue with people who can potentially join the firm.
Alex Bond: Got it. That makes sense. And then apologies if I missed this earlier, but what was the breakout between advisory revenues and, or sorry, non-M&A revenues versus M&A revenues this quarter? Was it consistent with the, I think, two-thirds M&A and one-third non-M&A split last quarter?
Ken Moelis: Pretty dead on. Very close to that. Yes. Might be, you know, a percentage point or higher on M&A, but not much. It's right around there.
Alex Bond: Okay. Great. Thank you for taking the questions.
Operator: The next question is Jim Mitchell from Seaport Global Securities.
Jim Mitchell: Sorry. Sorry. I was on mute. Hey. Good afternoon. Ken, I find it hard to believe you're gonna miss these conference calls, but appreciate the sentiment. But I just wanna have I had a follow-up on PCA. When you think about that business, the nature of the business, as well as Moelis' historically strong relationships with sponsors, would you expect the new hires in that business to ramp up more quickly than your typical M&A banker? Just trying to think through the payback time on the PCA investment.
Ken Moelis: The answer is yes. And first of all, I think we're now interacting with them for six, seven, or eight weeks together. I think they've been surprised or positively surprised at how strong our dialogue is with their core customer. And so we're very often both of us are finding it, like, the match has been what we hoped it would be. And the answer is yes. Because what's happening is there may be a sector banker that was going in to talk about an asset that a client had, you know, next week.
And we can walk right in and push the PCA expertise right into the pitch and talk about it as part of the dialogue much more rapidly than you would say, okay. Let's say you hired a new banker, they sort of have to go reestablish communication with the client, land a transaction. So I do think they can be productive quicker because they are being asked to show up in dialogues we're having with sponsors that have been ongoing real-time before they hit the ground. They're just being slotted right in and providing new expertise and new options. So, yeah, it can be.
Navid Mahmoodzadegan: Just to elaborate a little further, the three senior bankers that we've hired really focus on, you know, continuation vehicles and secondaries. And as Ken said, you know, that's a much quicker M&A-like kind of, you know, time to market. The primary business, which, you know, is another part of the PCA business that we hope to build over time, you know, is a much longer lead time kind of business. But the businesses we're focusing on first, I think, are the biggest market opportunities for us. And, b, onto your question, I think their ability to make an impact more quickly, I think, is much more realistic.
Jim Mitchell: Right. Okay. Yeah. That's very helpful. And then maybe pivot to balance sheet and cash. You know, I don't wanna put the cart before the horse, but I think cash and liquid investments doubled from a year ago, and the highest second quarter, I think, on record. So if the environment's getting better from here, are you getting close any closer to starting to return any of that excess cash to shareholders? And how do you think about deploying it if we are getting close?
Ken Moelis: Yes. I think we are. We recognize that we probably have more excess capital than we want or need. And we're in discussions with the board on that. And it'll be a variety of ways. But, you know, I do think stock repurchase will probably play more prominently in that than it has in the past. Where we were concerned about shrinking our, you know, our float, we're not that concerned about that anymore. So just put it. We're looking at a variety of ways, and we wanna get capital back, and we realize we have more capital than we need.
Jim Mitchell: Okay. Great. Thank you.
Operator: And at this time, there are no further questions. That does conclude today's conference. We would like to thank you all for your participation today. You may now disconnect.
Matt Tsukroff: Thank you.