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Date
Thursday, October 23, 2025 at 11:00 a.m. ET
Call participants
President and Chief Executive Officer — Peter D. Arvan
Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer — Melanie M. Hart
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Risks
President and Chief Executive Officer Arvan stated, "uncertainty around tariffs and elevated borrowing rates continue to weigh on consumer sentiment and limit discretionary demand, particularly for pool projects that require financing."
Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer Hart noted, "the lower level of discretionary spend reduced our sales by 2% in Q3 2025."
Arvan said, "California, we see continued pressure on new pool builds, particularly in areas affected by recent wildfires."
Takeaways
Net sales -- $1.5 billion in net sales, representing a 1% increase, reflecting momentum from peak season and maintenance activity.
Gross margin -- 29.6%, up 50 basis points, attributed to favorable pricing, supply chain initiatives, and increased private label sales.
Diluted EPS -- $3.40, up 4% compared to $3.27, due to sales and margin improvement.
Building materials sales -- Increased 4% year-over-year, marking the first growth since 2022, supported by remodel activity and share gains.
Chemical sales -- Declined 4%, with "some additional deflation," according to Peter Arvan, primarily in sanitizers; balancers and specialty products remained stable.
Private label offerings -- Generated volume growth and contributed to gross margin expansion through higher mix and branded solutions.
Equipment sales (excluding cleaners) -- Increased 4%, mainly from price and steady replacement volume for critical components.
Commercial sales -- Rose 2%, due to a focused strategy and expanded builder/designer relations.
Horizon net sales -- Up 3%, with particular strength in outdoor living products (landscape lighting, hardscapes, synthetic turf).
Pinch A Penny franchisee sales -- Declined 1%, reflecting lower end-customer activity despite expansion to 303 franchise stores.
Geographic trends -- Florida up 1%; Texas flat with sequential improvement; California and Arizona down 3% each; Europe down 1% in local currency, up 6% in US dollars.
Inventory balance -- $1.2 billion, up 4%, incorporating new location stocking and product inflation.
Total debt and leverage -- $1.1 billion debt, with a leverage ratio of 1.58, at the low end of the company's target range as of September 2025.
Cash flow from operations -- $286 million in cash flows from operations year to date, compared to $487 million in the prior year, with decreased conversion due to higher taxes and increased working capital investments.
Share repurchases -- $164 million completed, plus $20 million after quarter-end, and $493 million remaining under authorization.
Guidance -- Full-year diluted EPS maintained at $10.81 to $11.31, including $0.11 in ASU tax benefits realized year to date; expects net sales to be flat to slightly up, gross margin flat year-over-year, and operating expenses up approximately 3% for the full year.
Pool 360 digital tool -- Achieved an all-time high, representing 17% of total sales, indicating rising digital adoption.
Sales center and acquisition activity -- Opened one greenfield center and added two locations through acquisition, with a target of eight to ten new sales centers for the full year.
Fourth quarter comparison -- No expected recurrence of last year's 1% sales benefit from hurricane-related weather in the fourth quarter of 2024.
Summary
Pool Corporation (POOL +0.91%) reported modest top-line growth in the third quarter of 2025, driven by resilient maintenance demand and improved gross margins, while managing headwinds from consumer caution and inflationary pressures. Management confirmed commitment to strategic investments in technology and private label offerings, driving volume gains, margin enhancement, and a differentiated market position. The company maintained full-year sales and earnings guidance, attributing guidance confidence to operating discipline, technology adoption, and supply chain efficiency, while clearly stating that discretionary sales remained subdued and regional variability persisted.
Arvan emphasized, "new pool construction sales have outperformed industry permit data, indicating continuous share expansion."
Hart stated, "We expect to achieve our current year target of converting 90% to 100% of net income into cash flow from operations," even though year-to-date operational cash flow lagged the prior year. This target applies to the full year.
Regional trends revealed resilience in maintenance-related products against ongoing softness in California and Arizona new construction.
Pool 360's increasing adoption and customer integration were directly linked by Arvan to higher wallet share and retention.
Hart clarified, "Our full-year gross margin rate is forecasted to be similar to the prior year," normalizing for a nonrecurring benefit in the prior year's first quarter.
The incremental operating expense growth for the fourth quarter is projected at 3%-4%, reflecting both new location startup costs and accelerated technology investments.
Arvan described supply chain advances as sustainable due to technology integration and AI-driven optimization.
Industry glossary
Pool 360: Pool Corporation's proprietary digital ecosystem, offering customer-facing tools for product ordering, service management, and integration, designed to increase operational efficiency and drive digital sales adoption.
Horizon: Pool Corporation's business segment focused on distribution of professional landscaping and outdoor living products, including irrigation, turf, and hardscape solutions.
Pinch A Penny: Pool Corporation's franchised retail network, providing pool and outdoor living products and services to end consumers.
ASU benefits: Refers to Accounting Standards Update tax benefits recognized by Pool Corporation, impacting reported earnings per share.
Trichlor: A chlorine-based pool sanitizer and key chemical in Pool Corporation's maintenance product portfolio, sensitive to industry price fluctuations.
Greenfield: A newly developed sales center or facility, established in a previously unserved or underserved geographic area.
Full Conference Call Transcript
Peter Arvan: I am excited to share that our teams have maintained the momentum we established in the second quarter, delivering another solid performance in Q3. Thanks to their hard work and dedication, we continue to drive growth with top-line sales up 1% and gross margin expansion up 50 basis points. This was fueled by consistent maintenance activity and encouraging signs of stabilization in both new pool construction and remodel. I'm also pleased to see that we achieved year-over-year growth in building materials for the first time since 2022, driven by improvements in remodel activity and share gain.
As you know, we have continued innovating and investing in our Pool 360 applications, and I'm pleased to say that our adoption rate of these industry-leading tools continues to grow as our customers realize their full potential. Building on these successes, we recently shared our strategic roadmap for the next year and beyond with the entire management team at our international sales conference, and their excitement was palpable. The innovative products and ambitious growth plans we unveiled are already gathering a buzz, and our teams are ready to hit the ground running as new initiatives start rolling out immediately. We're focused on key areas of our business where we know we can win.
This forward-looking approach not only positions us to close 2025 with momentum but also lays a strong foundation for an even more dynamic 2026. Looking at the macroeconomic environment, uncertainty around tariffs and elevated borrowing rates continue to weigh on consumer sentiment and limit discretionary demand, particularly for pool projects that require financing. While we observed overall permit data down mid-single digits year-over-year through August with considerable variability across the country, recent easing of interest rates policy offers a promising path forward towards relief. For clarity here, we believe it will take further to bring borrowing rates to a level that will motivate potential entry-level pool owners to build.
Despite these challenges, however, our new pool construction sales have outperformed industry permit data, indicating continuous share expansion. On the remodel side, consumers remain focused on essential repairs and targeted improvements rather than large-scale upgrades. In response, our teams are leveraging our robust product portfolio, our strong private label offerings, and enhanced technology while partnering with vendors to deliver innovative solutions and drive future growth. Overall, I am more than confident in our team's ability to adapt, execute, and position us for long-term success. Now I will walk through our third quarter results. We reported $1.5 billion in net sales, up 1%, building on the growth we generated during peak season.
Maintenance product sales performed well, particularly parts and private label chemical volumes. As mentioned, we saw growth in building materials used in new construction and remodel projects. Mid-season price increases created a slight lift on top line but were diluted some by chemical deflation. Related to our geographic markets, Florida produced 1% growth with Texas flat and California and Arizona each down 3%. Florida remains steady across our product categories and leads the country with new pools being built in 2025. While flat, Texas showed sequential improvement compared to recent quarters. New pool builds in Texas remain pressured but continued to improve throughout the year, and maintenance-related product sales showed resilience.
In California, we see continued pressure on new pool builds, particularly in areas affected by recent wildfires. Arizona showed some deceleration in permits compared to earlier this year, but we believe this may be related to timing versus reversion while maintenance held up for both California and Arizona during the quarter. In Europe, net sales decreased 1% for the quarter in local currency and increased 6% in US dollars. Similar to last quarter, we saw growth in the southern countries while impacts from political strain and related consumer uncertainty pressured sales in France.
For Horizon, net sales increased 3% in the quarter, supported by solid maintenance growth and improvement in sales for outdoor living products, like landscape lighting, hardscapes, and synthetic turf. Shifting to product categories, total chemical sales declined 4% this quarter, reflecting some additional deflation. Overall, I consider the demand for chemicals and our performance to be stable. Our private label offerings generated volume growth during the quarter, showing that our teams are being successful in showing the power of our brands and the innovative products and systems that we offer. With our new product showroom displays and marketing support, our customers continue to see the strength of our value proposition, and this bodes well for the upcoming selling season.
Building material sales increased 4%, again, driven by our expansive label offering and elevated customer experience. We recently rebranded NPT, formerly National Pool Tile, to National Pool Trends to align our brand name and marketing efforts to highlight our many offerings. The new name brings greater clarity to our value proposition, showing NPT as our customer's partner for complete backyard transformations using our tile, pool finish, decking, to name a few. Our premier product offering, product sales specialist, and consumer showrooms offer a one-of-a-kind customer experience, and it is shown in our results. Equipment sales, which exclude cleaners, increased 4% during the quarter, mostly reflecting benefit from price and steady replacement volume for critical components.
Turning to end markets, our commercial sales increased 2% in the third quarter, showing steady momentum from a strategic focus area. We continue to make investments in our team during the quarter and created greater connections to key designers and builders to better support commercial aquatic projects. Sales to our independent retail customers declined 3%. Chemical deflation created mild headwinds here, while DIY consumers continue to be hesitant with discretionary purchases like cleaners and above-ground pools, spas, and some equipment. For our Pinch A Penny franchise group, represented sales represented our franchisees' sales to their end customers declined 1% during the quarter. Also of note, we have not seen any meaningful shift between do-it-for-me and do-it-yourself customers.
We're covering progress on our initiatives. I want to briefly highlight gross margin ahead of Melanie's prepared remarks. I'm extremely pleased with the team's effort to expand gross margin by 50 basis points this quarter. Although the operating environment remains challenging, our teams continue to deliver by making strategic and efficient supply chain choices, refining our network, and applying disciplined buying and sales strategies, all while providing an unparalleled customer experience. A key investment area and differentiator for Pool Corp is our technology suite. Pool 360 is the largest and most comprehensive set of customer-facing tools in the industry, and our adoption rate continues to grow.
For the quarter, sales through the tool represented an all-time high of 17% of total sales for the third quarter, which demonstrates the customer's desire for technology that creates value. While still in the early stages, this growth shows the output of our technology investment over the past few years. Our targeted spend in our digital ecosystem is driving tech experience, accelerating private label and exclusive product growth, and enhancing our long-term competitive advantage. We completed one acquisition during the quarter, adding two locations in key markets. Additionally, we opened one greenfield, bringing our year-to-date opening to six sales centers.
We remain on track for additional openings in the fourth quarter to reach eight to 10 new sales centers for the full year. Our Pinch A Penny franchise network added one new store in the quarter, adding to our Arizona presence and bringing the Pinch A Penny locations to 303 franchise stores. Touching on guidance, as we exit the pool season and enter the fourth quarter, we expect full-year sales performance to be relatively flat to up slightly. We are confirming our diluted EPS guidance for the year to a range of $10.81 to $11.31, updated to reflect the 11¢ in realized ASU benefits year to date.
At Pool Corp, our relentless pursuit of continuous improvement is driving us to lead the way on innovation across products and processes. Recognizing the industry's need for fresh ideas and solutions, we are making a new and intentional push to discover, shape, and bring new innovation to market for our customers and as the strongest channel to market for our supplier partners. By identifying emerging opportunities and thoughtfully guiding them from concept to market, we are helping to expand the total addressable market while delivering value unique to Pool Corp. Our team's product expertise is unmatched, backed by superior inventory availability, robust operating system, and customer relationships that span decades in nearly every market we serve.
Even as the macroeconomic environment presents challenges, the underlying strength of our industry and Pool Corp's distinctive capabilities remain clear. Our long-term growth trajectory is secure. Pools continue to be highly desirable, and no company is better positioned than Pool Corp to help build and maintain the growing installed base. We have a strong competitive advantage, and we are continually strengthening it through strategic investments in our people, facilities, acquisitions, digital platforms, innovative private label and exclusive products, retail support systems, advanced chemical repackaging capabilities, and consumer-facing marketing tools. Our commitment is focused, and our path forward is clear. We mark our thirtieth anniversary as a public company.
I want to thank our entire team for their exceptional dedication, which has driven our long-term success and positions us for the future. Over the past three decades, our growth and sustained success have been driven by the talent and commitment of our field leadership and support teams, all united by a focus on delivering the best customer experience and cultivating a go-to-market relationship with our valued suppliers. Looking ahead, I am confident that this foundation and our continued investment will equip us to enhance the differentiated value we provide to the pool and outdoor living industry while growing sales, expanding margin, and generating strong cash flows and delivering exceptional returns for our shareholders.
I will now turn the call over to Melanie Hart, our Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer, for her detailed commentary.
Melanie Hart: Thank you, Pete. For the third quarter, we saw year-over-year improvement in sales, driven by increased maintenance on the installed base, favorable pricing, and market share gains. While noting that the impact from lower discretionary spend levels was less of a drag on a comparable basis compared to the third quarter of the prior year. During the quarter, we realized a 3% benefit from pricing, reflecting the full quarter impact of price realization on the mid-season vendor price increases implemented in April and May. Tricor selling prices continue to be impacted by the lower level of spend in the industry and somewhat offset our positive price realization in the quarter.
Throughout the quarter, in certain markets, we saw some positive months where there were permit increases year-over-year from the prior period. However, in total, year-to-date permits remain below last year's level. Our estimate of new pool construction remains flat to slightly down, consistent with our expectations included in last quarter. Overall, the lower level of discretionary spend had a 2% impact on our sales for the quarter, similar to the impact we saw in the second quarter, with both Horizon and Europe having positive sales growth in the quarter. As Pete mentioned, we added two new sales centers through acquisition during the quarter, as well as one newly acquired location in October.
These additions did not have a significant impact on our base business results, so we have not reported base business performance separately for the quarter. Our gross margin in the third quarter was 29.6%, representing a 50 basis point improvement over the prior year. This improvement was driven by favorable pricing, successful supply chain initiatives, and an increase in sales of our expanded private label offering. All areas that we continue to focus on and excel in despite the persistent impact of the macro environment and lower levels of consumer discretionary spend. The sequential change from the second quarter margin is consistent with our typical seasonal trends.
Operating expenses increased 5%, slightly ahead of the quarter-over-quarter changes we reported during the first half of the year. This increase includes the impact of our cumulative new greenfield locations that were not open in both periods. Also, as Pete described, the positive results we have seen with our expanded Pool 360 initiative, we accelerated some incremental technology costs during the quarter because we believe that this further differentiates us from our competition and will yield better sales and operating leverage in the future. Operating income improved $2 million over the prior year and was $178 million for the quarter. Interest expense of $12 million continues to compare favorably to the prior year.
Our effective tax rate was 23.5% for the quarter compared to 23.4% in the prior year. ASU benefits contributed $0.1 in both periods presented. We generated diluted earnings per share of $3.40, up 4% from the $3.27 we realized in the third quarter of last year. Next, I'll discuss our balance sheet, cash flows, and capital allocation. We finished September with inventory balances of $1.2 billion, up 4%, our lowest level of inventory we expect during the year as we exit the season. The increase includes product inflation and also includes stocking for our nine new locations, including both our Greenfield and the acquisition completed during the quarter.
Total debt of $1.1 billion resulted in a leverage of 1.58, remaining at the low end of our stated target range of 1.5 to two times. We generated $286 million in cash flows from operations year to date, compared to $487 million in the prior year. The decrease was primarily due to higher tax payments and investments in working capital. We expect to achieve our current year target of converting 90% to 100% of net income into cash flow from operations, which includes the deferred tax payment from the prior year. We continue to execute on our share repurchases opportunistically under the authorization provided by the board.
We have completed $164 million of share repurchases through the third quarter, with an additional $20 million through our earnings call, ahead of $159 million through the third quarter of last year. We have $493 million remaining under our share repurchase authorization. Looking at the year, we continue to expect full-year sales to be relatively flat compared to the prior year, with one less selling day. This outlook reflects a modest decline in discretionary spending compared to last year, offset by a positive impact from maintenance growth and pricing realization. In the prior year, we've been at 1% in the fourth quarter from weather-related hurricane activity, which at this time is not expected to reoccur in the fourth quarter.
Our full-year gross margin rate is forecasted to be similar to the prior year, which on an ongoing basis reflects improvement as the prior year rate included a nonrecurring import tax benefit recorded in the first quarter of the prior year. This would include some improvements on a year-over-year basis in gross margins in the fourth quarter. While customer mix remains less favorable, these impacts are being offset by growth in private label sales, ongoing supply chain improvements, and pricing benefits. Our estimates for full-year operating expenses remain in line with last quarter, with an expected annual increase over the prior year of approximately 3%.
This reflects productivity improvements, offsetting inflationary cost pressures, with increases attributable to our investments in greenfield locations and our focus on technology initiatives. Forecasts for interest expense, estimated tax rates, and share count for the full year are included in our quarterly earnings presentation posted on our website. There have been no significant changes to these estimates since last quarter, with interest expense updated to include share repurchase activity. As we typically see, our third-quarter tax rate is lower than the annual rate due to discrete timing differences, and we expect our fourth-quarter rate to be in line with the first and second-quarter rate.
We are confirming our diluted EPS range of $10.81 to $11.31, including 11¢ in ASU tax benefits realized year to date, of which we reported an additional $0.01 in the third quarter that is now included in the range. I am pleased with our team's ability to perform and remain focused on our internal strategic initiatives, which have delivered tangible results year to date. This highlights the strength of our team and the significant value that industry-specific talent contributes across the outdoor living value chain. While we continue to manage the business effectively, we are also investing in our key strategic growth areas to create long-term value for our shareholders.
I will now turn the call over to the operator to begin our Q&A session.
Operator: We will now begin the question and answer session. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. If at any time your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw your question, please press star then 2. Please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble our roster. The first question comes from Susan Maklari with Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
Susan Maklari: Good morning. My first question is diving in a bit on the comment you made around seeing some early signs of stabilization, which is encouraging given what we've seen in housing and the consumer as we think about this summer and into the fall. Can you talk a bit more about what is driving that and how you're thinking about the trends that you're seeing on the ground as we exit this year and maybe even into early 2026?
Peter Arvan: Yeah. As I mentioned, the permit data, when you look at that, which again only represents a portion of the market, is very sporadic. And so there isn't a consistent theme, but when you look at them from geography to geography, but I guess when we look at them in totality and then combine that with our comments that we're getting from our builder customers and remodel customers, I would tell you that the activity level seems to have firmed up, and we are encouraged as evidenced by our growth in building material sales in the quarter, which has been it's been a long time since we've seen that.
So I would say that overall, the comments tend to be more positive now. I think it's going to take further interest rate cuts to really drive the entry-level pool buyer to jump in. But I think that overall, the consumer sentiment on new construction and large renovation projects seems to be fairly consistent and more optimistic than it was.
Susan Maklari: Okay. That's good to hear. And then my second question is on the innovation side. You mentioned that you accelerated some spend in the summer. It sounds like you've got some really good initiatives that are coming through the business. Can you talk about how you're thinking of the investments and the trends that we should expect into the fall and year-end? And then what that can mean for your ability to outgrow the market even if things do stay relatively more challenging for next year or the next several years?
Peter Arvan: Sure. I'm going to break this down into a couple of areas. I'll talk about technology as it relates to Pool Corp's technology, and then I'll talk about technology related to the market. All of our investments in technology from a Pool Corp perspective are really designed to enhance the customer experience, give them greater access, greater convenience, and allow them to be more productive. I look at our suite of tools, whether it's the Pool 360 service, which allows our service customers to essentially operate their business, invoice market, schedule, do everything with the tool, which allows them to be more productive.
It allows them access to their catalog of products in Pool 360, allows them to schedule pickups for products, have them delivered, and frankly have access to the entire network. Or whether you're talking about our industry-leading water test technology that we provide for our independent retailers that are selling our proprietary pool chemicals. Again, great product. Very good reviews for the homeowners, and we've also extended that into an at-home app.
So you can either bring the water test or bring your water to the store for testing, or you can buy our proprietary Regal and EZ Glor test strips, take them home, and then use our, again, our proprietary app to test the water and get the same recipe, if you will, for correcting any water chemistry imbalance. So we look at our standard B2B tool, which is where the preponderance of our traffic is, and said, what can we do in order to enhance the customer experience to make that tool easier to use? And the team has been relentless on that, which again, provides more convenience, more information, more access for our dealers.
And then the last thing that we have recently started launching is an app that our counter people can use in our branches in the yard so that our customers don't even have to come inside. So if they're just getting product that is outside, they'll be met outside with a tablet. And they can tap to pay. If they don't have an account, they can tap to pay or swipe a credit card out in the yard, which again gets them back to work.
So feel really, really good about the technology suite that we were rolling out for, and I think that allows us to provide more convenience to our customers, a better experience, and allows them to grow their business faster. And those all feed into our marketing tools too, which our consumer-facing marketing tools are designed to help our customers grow. So just a plethora of tools available, and the adoption rate continues to grow. So very, very pleased with that. The other side of technology that I mentioned has to do with product technology for the industry. I think our industry needs innovation and new product technology in order to grow.
I think customers are craving technology, convenience, and value as it relates to those new products, which will give them reasons to invest in their backyard, in their swimming pool to make the ownership of a pool, whether you're talking about managing the water chemistry or managing your equipment pad, easier, more convenient, and at a price point that is available for everybody. So we are very excited about how technology will continue to impact this business and Pool Corp's role in driving that.
Susan Maklari: Okay. Thank you for all the color, and good luck with the quarter.
Peter Arvan: Thank you.
Operator: The next question comes from David MacGregor with Longbow Research. Please go ahead.
David MacGregor: Yes. Good morning. And Hey. Good morning. I wanted to start by just going back to the graphic in your deck. Where you referenced customer risk or customer mix, I guess. And just I presume we're talking about larger consolidated contractors in the kind of growing presence in the remodel work. But just thinking about longer-term, margin implications here and are the levers that you have available to offset against that impact?
Peter Arvan: I think what it means is that we continue to see consolidation at the customer level. And when you have consolidation at the customer level, they're looking for more tools and more convenience in order to help them be more effective. So for us, I actually think it's a big opportunity because nobody has the technology suite that we have today in order to integrate with them. So our systems are very flexible. It allows us to integrate with them. It allows some of the customers are choosing to use our software to operate their businesses, and some of them are just choosing to integrate with us. So I actually think that it creates a competitive advantage for us.
On one hand, it actually makes them easier to deal with because we get more advanced notice, which allows us to be more productive when we're handling their orders, and it also gives them access to information on a self-service basis versus having to call and make inquiries, which, again, just drives our cost to serve. So very comfortable with our ability to leverage our technology suite in order to help the larger companies be more efficient and grow their business.
David MacGregor: Okay. That makes sense. Thank you for that. And just to follow-up, I want to go back to the 4% growth on equipment and much of that would have been just kind of parts going into maintenance and repair versus equipment sales and the remodel segment?
Peter Arvan: You know, I think most of it right now is, I mean, of course, every new pool gets a set of equipment. A portion of the renovation and remodel will get new equipment. But the vast majority of the products that we sell are related to one of the critical components on the pool failed and had to be replaced, whether it was a pump or whether it was a heater filter light, the vast majority of our equipment sales, and it's frankly, it's always been this way, are for the replacement business or failed components.
David MacGregor: Got it. Okay. Thank you very much.
Peter Arvan: Yep. Thank you.
Operator: The next question comes from David Manthey with Baird. Please go ahead.
David Manthey: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. First question on chemicals. I was surprised that the weakness there, I think it's been recently flat to moderate growth. And could you talk about inflation, deflation broken down by the chemicals, building materials, equipment? And I'm just wondering, is that chemicals? Is that something that happened recently? It's like a slight change in trend versus what we've been seeing lately.
Peter Arvan: Yeah. I'll take that. Dave, I think the way here's the way I think about chemicals. I don't know that there's been any trend. I think we've mentioned on the last couple of calls that there's been some deflation on trichlorine. Now remember, we break chemicals down into three buckets. Right? There's the sanitizer, then there's balancer, and then there's specialty. So the most deflation that we have seen, and again, I wouldn't put it in the category of significant. I would just say that there has been some deflation is really in the sanitizer category. I don't think it should be I don't look at that in alarm.
The fact that in my comments, I looked at our overall chemical business, and I said, you know what? Our sales out the door on chemicals I would consider are fairly normal. Because you have to remember that it's you know, our sales of chemicals go into our service professionals and into our retail stores. So when you're within, you know, a few percent of the total, I don't really look at that as an alarming trend one way or the other because that could be absorbed in just inventory on people's trucks when they actually bought an inventory in the store.
So overall, I would say, you know, there's been slight pressure in the sanitizers, right, and sanitizers in shock. I would say that the rest of the business balancers and the rest of specialty products are actually holding up just fine. So nothing really alarming or noteworthy there. The rest of the inflation that you mentioned, building materials, I would say, not a tremendous amount of inflation there. I would call that slight. And then on the equipment side, you know, the equipment guys are all out with their pricing for the upcoming season, and I would say that's fairly consistent to what we have seen over the last couple of years.
David Manthey: Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. On looking out to next year, I'm not asking for guidance. I'm just thinking about how the model works here. And I think, typically, you talk about if you're growing normal kind of six to nine and that growth algorithm, you often have talked about keeping SG&A growth to 60% to 80% of the top-line growth rate. And I know there's also some cost that creep back in when you start reinstating bonus incentive comp and that sort of thing.
So I just want to just the model works mathematically when we think about year one of mid-single-digit growth, let's say, do we see that kind of normal 60 to 80% growth rate in SG&A leverage, or is it slightly higher than that in year one, and then we start to get that leverage as we go forward?
Melanie Hart: Yeah. So the model stays intact. We will see some upfront kind of recovery of expenses. So incentive compensation, as you mentioned, would be the one area, but, of course, that would only track as far as our growth track. And then outside of that, what we've talked about from an expense base standpoint is we've managed variable expenses. And so when you think about kind of volume increases coming back, I mean, we will have some add backs as it relates to, you know, drivers and warehouse personnel. But that will be, you know, kind of limited from that standpoint because we've maintained all of our professional staffing, our sales center managers, and our BDRs.
So, you know, initially, there will be those volume-related expenses as well as the incentive compensation that would come back in with the sales growth.
Peter Arvan: So, Dave, this is Steve. Not really nothing new to report in that area. It's the same as we always have done. I guess, what is noteworthy though is we continue to invest in the business for the long term. So we continue to increase the number of sales centers that we have in the markets that we believe are either at capacity now or poised for additional growth and opportunity. And we also continue to invest in technology because we are convinced that it's something that customers really want and value. It is an area that allows us to differentiate Pool Corp. And an area that customers have been very happy with, the investments that we've made.
Now, again, those investments are none of those are short-term. Those are all long-term investments that we believe we make. They become foundational and become part of our operating system, become part of the customer's operating system. And, you know, the leverage on those will continue to climb in the out years.
David Manthey: That's very clear. Thank you both.
Peter Arvan: Thank you.
Operator: The next question comes from Ryan Merkel with William Blair. Please go ahead.
Ryan Merkel: Hey, everyone. Thanks for the questions. I want to start with the commodity price down one in the chart. How much is Tricor down year over year? And then are you also seeing PVC? Just what else is in there?
Melanie Hart: Yeah. So we still are not seeing PVC stabilize. So it's getting better. When you look at the quarter-over-quarter rates on the PVC. But it is still within the quarter a decline. And then when you look at Trifor, you know, the overall impact of the pricing is one. But the chemical pricing is down more than that. Since it's just a portion of about 12% of the sales overall. So it varies. You know, right now, it's somewhere kind of in the mid to high single digits down from a pricing standpoint of where it was last quarter.
Ryan Merkel: Okay. Yeah. It's pretty interesting to see this persistent chemical deflation. I mean, usually, that commodity is kind of up, you know, one to two points pretty consistently every year just because more of a maintenance item. Like, what is different today about Tricolor? Why do we continue to see this persistent deflation?
Peter Arvan: Yeah. I think, Ryan, that Tricore, as you know, went up dramatically during COVID. It went from, you know, for, you know, when I look at the price of trichloride today compared to what it was pre-COVID, it is significantly higher than it was. It was a crazy high number. It's come it has come down from what I thought was an unsustainable number at the time. But it is still up significantly over what it was during the COVID era. So, again, what's changed? Really, nothing has changed from a demand perspective. I think in any given year, you're going to see ebbs and flows in demand that's tied to overall demand, which is weather when the pool's open.
How hot the weather is, how wet the weather is. But, you know, honestly, when I look at it, it's not a number that I think is moving. What would concern me is if it was moving sharply, you know, one way or the other. I think the movement is muted, and I don't know that it is affecting anybody's long-term trend. I think that, you know, import regulation can have an impact on that depending on what the administration decides on that because some of the chemical is domestically produced. Some of it is sourced from imports. But overall, I don't get too excited about that number because, again, it's not moving sharply.
During COVID, when it skyrocketed and a lot of things that was moving sharply, that was much more of a concern. But I look at the movement today and say, yeah. It's down slightly. But, you know, in six months, it could be back where it was too, and I don't know that I could explain, you know, why it would be up 4% or down 4% one way or the other. Overall, though, it's a portion of our chemical mix. And I think trichlor just happens to be the product that everybody pays very close attention to. But when we look at it in total, it's a much smaller part of the total.
Ryan Merkel: Okay. Got it. Alright. Thanks. That's fine.
Operator: The next question comes from Trey Grooms with Stephens. Please go ahead.
Trey Grooms: Hey. Good morning. So just from one comment earlier, want to make sure I have this, have this right. So sales, ex still expected to be kind of flat to and I think, Pete, you said flat to slightly down for the year, but we're still thinking 4Q overall should be up year over year. Is that still the right way to think about it? And then, you know, I guess with the EPS range, you reiterated clearly.
But, you know, given where we are, you know, this kind of late stage in the with the pool season pretty well behind this, I guess, what would you know, maybe get us to the higher end versus the lower end of the guide range here given the expectation for, you know, sales. And then I think you mentioned, you know, gross margin to be roughly flat year over year for the year. So any color on that would be great. Thank you.
Melanie Hart: Sure. So for sales, fourth quarter, we would expect that to be kind of flat to slightly up. And, you know, what we're seeing there is we'll see incremental benefit from a pricing standpoint in the fourth quarter that's really offsetting the weather-related hurricane benefits that we got in the fourth quarter of last year. And then from a margin standpoint for the fourth quarter, we are also expecting margin there to be up. So we would expect to continue to see all of the benefits of the things that we've been working on all year long.
And, you know, we'll see that it should be, you know, kind of up slightly from where we are in the third quarter with some benefits from product mix.
Peter Arvan: The other thing I would too mention, which is always the case, you know, our fourth quarter, a portion of what happens in the fourth quarter is construction and remodel. And again, that is going to be dictated largely by weather in the seasonal markets is what I'm referring to. So right now, weather up north is still pretty good, pretty warm. And the folks that have contracts to build are still building, which is encouraging. So the longer the weather stays warm, that bodes well for the fourth quarter for us.
Melanie Hart: And then in order to get to the higher end of the range, that would really be, you know, weather dependent. So, you know, at this point, thankfully, we don't have any we don't have a near-term hurricane or significant weather impacts that we're seeing. But, you know, that would that benefit from last year would we saw that similar benefit. That would be where it would fall in the range.
Trey Grooms: Okay. Alright. Perfect. Got it. I'll pass it on. Thanks for the color, and best of luck.
Peter Arvan: Thank you.
Operator: The next question comes from Scott Schneeberger with Oppenheimer. Thanks very much. Good morning. I guess, Melanie, I'll start with you, but Pete, if you have anything to add, I'd love to hear it. In the third quarter gross margin improvement, it looks like pricing and supply chain were about equal. It's a two-part question. In pricing, could you just delve into a little bit now that we have the full impact of the tariff increase in the third quarter? A level or two deeper, Melanie, on what you're seeing, how have competitors reacted, how we should think about that going forward? You know, there's some uncertainty, obviously, November 1 as well.
But just how we should think about the sustainability of that trickling forward. And then the second half of the question is, on the supply chain piece, could you just take us into what how permanent are the fixes? Maybe some anecdotes of the improvements you're conducting there. Thanks very much.
Melanie Hart: Okay. Yeah. So sure. On the pricing front, you know, we are seeing that the you know, we did have a full quarter of the price increases that went into effect kind of mid-season. And, you know, those are at this point I would say, fully flushed through the cycle. And so, you know, when we're looking at the acceptance of that pricing overall within the market, you know, we that is through the pricing channel, and we're not seeing any impact on, you know, what we're doing versus our competitors doing as it relates to pricing.
Peter Arvan: And I'll take the second part of the question as it relates to supply chain activity. You know, we have become more and more sophisticated with supply chain over the last couple of years. Very happy with the team's effort in that regard. I think we have better technology. They have embraced the AI tools that we have available to us.
So I look at the actions that the supply chain team, which has to do with what we buy, when we buy, whom we buy, how we buy, and making sure that we are partnering with our vendors to maximize our opportunities and benefits, and say that we are as good in that area, if not better than we've ever been. So I would look for the gains that we see in that area to be sustaining.
Scott Schneeberger: Great. Thank you both.
Operator: Next question comes from Garik Shmois with Loop Capital. Please go ahead.
Garik Shmois: Oh, hi. Thanks. You spoke to equipment price increases that have been announced for the next season. I'm just curious you can speak to the early buy programs and, you know, if your approach for the coming season is taking any different shape than usual.
Peter Arvan: Yeah. Really, nothing new to report there. You know, the vendors have there was only, I think, one year during the peak of COVID when the vendors modified their traditional early buy program. So the early buy programs are very, very similar to what they've always been. And we are certainly participating in those in a very strategic way, you know, as we always have. So there's really not much new to report on there.
Garik Shmois: Okay. And then just a follow-up question just on SG&A. And the guide for the year, little bit of nitpicky question. But I think, Melanie, you mentioned in your remarks an outlook for 3% SG&A growth this year. I think last quarter, it was maybe 2% to 3%. I just want to confirm that. Is that different or if so, is it just related to the expenses that you saw primarily in the third quarter?
Melanie Hart: Yeah. We had the 5% increase for the third quarter. So that increased slightly because we did accelerate some of those technology investments. When we look forward to the fourth quarter, we'll expect to see that rate higher than what we saw earlier in the year. I would say, you know, in the range of a 3% to 4% increase for the fourth quarter.
Garik Shmois: Got it. Thank you.
Operator: The next question comes from Jeff Hammond with KeyBanc Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Jeff Hammond: Hey. Good morning.
Peter Arvan: Morning.
Jeff Hammond: Just on pricing in the next year, I guess we've gotten, you know, the price list or from some of the equipment guys ahead of the early buy. Seems like they're putting kind of normal plus two to three points with tariff. And I'm just wondering, one, what are you hearing from kind of the rest of like your other categories around pricing into next year? And just kind of the level of fatigue as we, you know, it looks like we're seeing kind of another year of above-average price increases.
Peter Arvan: Yeah. I think as it relates to the rest of the suppliers, I would say, you know, fairly normal cadence. I think the equipment guys are above where most of the rest of our suppliers are. Your comment on that level of fatigue from our customers. That is certainly something that we hear. Quite frankly, all of that is solved with innovation. Right? So new products, new innovation make those price increases far more palatable for the customers because it gives them something new to go sell and grow their business, and to help address concerns of the homeowners and pool owners.
Jeff Hammond: Okay. Great. And then, just on Pool 360, you know, continue to see good adoption there. I'm just wondering if you have a target or the way to think about what you think that percentage of adoption is, you know, a couple of years out. And, you know, what the pushback or feedback is on people that are maybe more reticent to adopt?
Peter Arvan: Hey. That's actually a really good question. I would tell you that, you know, when I look at the rain, what gives me good comfort on this number as well as many others as I look across the expanse of our quantitative metrics at Pool Corp is the range. So whenever I see a very tight range on something, I look at it and say, okay. If the range is very tight, it tells me that, okay, this is really kind of, you know, what process capability is for the particular thing that we're talking about. In the case of Pool 360, I can tell you that our range is pretty broad.
Which, again, I have people that are well above. I mentioned that we were at 17% for the quarter, which is an all-time high for us. We have people that are nearly double that. In fact, there's a few that are actually above that. So I look at that and say that there is still significant room to improve the adoption of the tool. What we hear consistently from customers, it's an education thing. Right? So first of all, we have to have something that is worth using, and I think we have that.
I think the team's worked very, very hard to make sure that we have a relevant set of tools that is best in class that exists primarily for the benefit of the customer. So this is not, hey. How can I operate Pool Corp cheaper? It's about how can we help our customers be more productive and improve the overall customer experience. And I think the teams have worked very hard to do that. So I look at the adoption rate in some areas. It is significantly higher than what it is for the total. So, you know, what's my target? I guess my target is still significantly higher than where we are.
Do I think we could be, you know, as a company, 25%, 30%? Yeah. I think we could I think we absolutely could do that. Could it be higher? And the answer to that is probably yes. But we don't have quite enough experience with it, and we need to spend more time with our customer to say, okay. What would it take in order to have this be your go-to every time?
Jeff Hammond: Okay. Great. Good color. Thanks, Pete.
Operator: The next question comes from Steve Forbes with Guggenheim. Please go ahead.
Steve Forbes: Good morning, Pete, Melanie. Thanks for taking the question. Maybe just a follow-up on Jeff's there around Pool 360. Is there a way to help frame to us, you know, sort of how a customer spend or wallet share evolves, you know, sort of six months, twelve months after initial adoption, as we sort of build support right around that achievement of target that you just laid out?
Peter Arvan: Yep. I think the way I think about it is this. Customers that have a very strong digital connection with their supplier tend to be we tend to grow faster with those companies. In particular, when you look at our digital tools related to water test, obviously, the water test was developed to support our private label chemicals, whether that's our Regal or EZ Glor brand. So every dealer that uses the software, every homeowner that buys the test strips, and tests their water using either the test strips or the in-store experience, they're going to get a recipe, if you will, or prescription of chemicals to add to their water, which are all private label products.
So the more the faster we drive adoption in that area, the faster we'll be able to grow our chemical business. And it becomes less about, well, I could buy, you know, this bottle of algaecide for, you know, a dollar cheaper from someplace else, it becomes, well, wait a minute. This is part of the recipe and the program that I'm using to manage my pool water that produces these great, you know, results in crystal clear. So, you know, whether it's that or whether it's the service tech that is using, you know, Pool 360 service because every time that person needs something, he's drawing the quote from his Pool 360 account. Rather than shopping around.
So we see much greater stickiness for customers that use that. And frankly, every time we integrate with our customer software, again, that drives stickiness. So we love the potential of growing the business through closer technological connections with our customers. And as those businesses or as those connections grow, we believe our sales will grow, you know, faster than the average, if you will.
Steve Forbes: Helpful. And then as we think about sort of future innovation and technological advances, when you talk to the builder community today, what's sort of in the pipeline as you think about opportunities to sort of continue to create a digital advantage, you know, and sort of drive further share capture? Like, are there certain specific things that the builder community is asking you to innovate behind?
Peter Arvan: Yeah. I don't know that I focus specifically on the builders. Right? Because the builder in our mind is certainly foundational because that's how the install base grows. But the percentage of our business that is driven from build as compared to the installed base of pools, which is maintenance from repair, the latter is far larger. So that's initially where we are focused. Now a lot of those tools can be used for the builders too. So we're investing for the builders with our lot of the builders, in particular, the smaller builders, if you will, are very much in tune with and use our design centers. And our digital catalogs for our building materials.
But our focus right now is more with the maintenance and repair operations. Certainly, builders can use the same tools to get to prepare their quotes and order material. And order equipment sets for construction projects. That is something and then don't forget about our retailers too because the retailers, many of them are using their systems integrated with ours to do essentially replenishment to the stores. To manage their inventory. So it is I wouldn't focus just on builders. I would just say we are looking to improve our customer experience all facets of the business.
Steve Forbes: Thank you.
Operator: The next question comes from Sam Reid with Wells Fargo. Please go ahead.
Sam Reid: Awesome. I wanted to touch on the relationship you've historically seen between home equity line of credit rates or HELOCs and the demand for remodel and new pool. Anecdotally, what's the lag typically between lower HELOC rates and spend for some of those more discretionary categories?
Peter Arvan: Yeah. I don't know that I could quantify a strong link that says, okay. At this HELOC number, the project is a go at, you know, 50 basis points higher. It's a no-go. I mean, I would just tell you, instinctually, that homeowners today have a higher level of home equity than they've ever had before. And I think pools and new pools and renovation remodel certainly are still highly desirable. It stands to reason that as those rates come down, HELOC is one of the sources of financing that homeowners use to finance those projects. There are also other ways that they are doing it.
But we just look for kind of overall more liquidity and lower rates is going to bode well for large renovation projects. And allowing more customers that have been waiting on the sidelines to get a pool to go ahead and pull the trigger and start construction.
Sam Reid: That helps speed. And the second question here. I know it's early, but you're gonna be hosting an analyst day next year. You're gonna follow your consistent kind of biannual schedule. You know? So just along those lines, you know, any high-level thoughts at this point around things that you think you might share or not share? Just looking to get a sense for, you know, are we gonna potentially get an update to your algorithm or something along those lines? Thanks.
Peter Arvan: I can't give you all of my secrets now. It's way too early. It's not even Christmas. I would just tell you, we put a lot of time and effort into our analyst days to make them investor days in order to make them worthwhile. And show the best parts of the company and our focus areas and what gives us confidence in the future and what differentiates our value proposition. So at this point, that's all I'm gonna give you is that I believe you're going to hopefully, you attend. I believe that you'll leave there convinced more than ever that nobody is better positioned than Pool Corp to capitalize on this industry.
Sam Reid: Sounds exciting, Pete. Thanks.
Operator: Since we've run out of our time, our last question comes from Colin Veron with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Colin Veron: The technology sounds really exciting, and it sounds like you've already done quite a bit of investment behind it already. So I was hoping you can just help us think about the magnitude of the spend that you're doing there and how much more SG&A investments there are left to drive these initiatives or are those pretty much behind you and you start to reap the benefits as we move out to '26 and '27?
Peter Arvan: Yeah. I think, you know, when you start with technology, I look at the spend that we have on it. I don't it's not an alarming number. It's not a huge amount for a company of our size. At all. And when I compare it against the benefits that we are seeing and will potentially and should see going forward, I think that in order to have anything relevant in the technology world, it's nothing it's not like, hey. I spent a little bit of money and it's done. You know, technology changes at a very, very rapid pace. And we have to make sure that we change with it.
AI is certainly going to have an impact on our business, the way we develop technology, and the way we deploy technology. And I think it's going to be helpful on both ends. But I don't look at the spend and say, wow. Okay. We know we are spending, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars on an ERP system. We're not.
We're spending, you know, we're spending, you know, as part of our normal course of business, to make sure that we have the best, most relevant set of, technologically up-to-date tools that create value for our customers, which again drives them to adopt the tools, which makes for a stickier transaction because of the value that it creates for the customer. So I guess that's a long way of saying that I don't think we're spending a lot of money today, but we're certainly not done spending. But like everything we do at Pool Corp, we try and squeeze the nickel just as hard as we can. And I think AI is helping us in that regard.
Colin Veron: Great. That's really helpful color. And then maybe a more near-term question here. Melanie, you mentioned a few times the weather benefit that you guys saw last quarter. Any way you can help quantify just the magnitude of what you don't expect to repeat this year?
Melanie Hart: It was a 1% benefit in the fourth quarter of last year.
Colin Veron: Great. Thank you.
Peter Arvan: That was a top-line sales number.
Operator: This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Peter Arvan, President and CEO, for any closing remarks.
Peter Arvan: I just want to thank you all for joining us today. We look forward to hosting our year-end call in February when we will release our fourth quarter 2025 results and full-year results. Thank you for your interest and support in Pool Corp, and I hope you all have a happy and safe holiday season and New Year.
Operator: The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.