Chemours (CC) Q4 2022 Earnings Call Transcript

Chemours (CC -2.15%)
Q4 2022 Earnings Call
Feb 10, 2023, 8:00 a.m. ET

Contents:

• Prepared Remarks
• Questions and Answers
• Call Participants

Prepared Remarks:

Operator

Good morning. My name is Rob, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the Chemours Company fourth quarter and full year 2022 earnings conference call. [Operator instructions] Jonathan Lock, senior vice president and chief development officer.

You may begin your conference.

Jonathan Lock -- Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer

Hi. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the Chemours Company's fourth quarter and full year 2022 earnings conference call. I'm joined today by Mark Newman, president and chief executive officer; and Sameer Ralhan, senior vice president and chief financial officer. Before we start, I'd like to remind you that comments made on this call, as well as in the supplemental information provided in our presentation and on our website, contain forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties as described in Chemours' SEC filings.

These forward-looking statements are not guarantees of future performance and are based on certain assumptions and expectations of future events that may not be realized. Actual results may differ, and Chemours undertakes no duty to update any forward-looking statements as a result of future developments or new information. During the course of this call, management will refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures that we believe are useful to investors evaluating the company's performance. A reconciliation of non-GAAP terms and adjustments are included in our release and at the end of our presentation.

As a reminder, our prepared remarks, a full transcript, and an audio recording, plus our earnings deck have been posted to our website alongside our earnings release. This morning's call will focus purely on Q&A. With that, I'll turn the call over to our CEO, Mark Newman. Mark?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Jonathan, and thank you all for joining us this morning. I'd like to start this morning by first thanking our Chemours employees, the entire 6,600 strong Team Chemours for another great year, a year of improved results in revenue and earnings and high free cash flow conversion, a year in which we set several records, especially as we think of our TSS and APM businesses. But as you saw in the results we posted last night, we had a difficult fourth quarter. And the results in the quarter were driven primarily by rising raw material costs, also with higher energy and logistics costs, which were further compounded by weaker-than-expected demand, mainly in our TT segment, which also feeds into our unit rate costs in the quarter.

Clearly, the strong U.S. dollar and the winter storm at the very end didn't help. But clearly, it was a weaker quarter. With that, you know, we have stepped back, and we looked at the year.

We had a great year. And with that in mind, you know, as we look at how we set the 2023 guide, I'd like to make a few comments. Our guide, in my mind, reflects our confidence in the work that's already underway in TT to improve margins from where we left off in Q4 throughout the year to deliver margins that will be essentially in line with fiscal year 2022. We have a great foundation with TBS, and we're adding to that work that we're doing on input costs and plant efficiency.

In TSS, the growth thesis is intact, you know, with mid to high single-digit top-line growth and comfort in getting back to greater than 30% margins for the full year based on mix and volumes and, especially, as we bear in mind the step-down in quarters starting in early 2024. In APM, the growth thesis in our advanced electronics and clean energy applications, which provide very high value in use, is also intact. From a bottom-line perspective, clearly, there will be some fade on less-strategic businesses. Clearly, that will be impacted, depending on the strength of global macro.

And also, you know, our sense that we are very much involved in driving growth and investing in growth in our APM business, which has an impact on the margins. Nevertheless, with all these ingredients, we're confident in delivering margins again, consistent with last year in the low 20s. And then, finally, you know, the team continues to work on a number of legacy issues, both on legal and environmental areas, as we continue to resolve legacy issues. And with that, we expect higher corporate and other spend in the year.

So, overall, we're starting the year on a weaker note with a lot of global macro uncertainty. But the team is very focused on all of these points in delivering another good year for Chemours in 2023. With that, Rob, I'll turn it over to you to open up for Q&A.

Questions & Answers:

Operator

[Operator instructions] Your first question comes from the line of Duffy Fischer from Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.

Duffy Fischer -- Goldman Sachs -- Analyst

Yes. Good morning. First question is around TiO2. If you contemplate kind of your midpoint and, you know, the revenue guidance that you gave, can I read into that that that's roughly or mostly, I guess, volume down and then maybe price off 1% or 2% with a little bit of relief on the raw materials side? Is that the right way to think about what the mid case feels like rolling through?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Definitely. I think that -- yes, a very good characterization. The way we're thinking of the year is, you know, a modest volume recovery in the second half. But overall, that would translate to volumes being down.

Clearly, you know, TBS is working from a price perspective, and the team's hard at work on the input cost side and efficiency. So, maybe I'll ask Sameer to comment further on some of the work we're doing on the cost side.

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Thanks, Mark. Duffy, as you kind of look at the costs, definitely, we've started seeing some of the relief on that side. As we kind of move through the year, we should start seeing the benefit of that. But I would just caution a little bit as we kind of move into Q1, we are carrying a little bit of inventory, as you know, from the Q4 into Q1.

But as we kind of move through the year, the input cost relief should help us on the margin side.

Duffy Fischer -- Goldman Sachs -- Analyst

Fair enough. And then, if you look back, you've had some good years in TiO2, you know, kind of, let's say, three quarters of $1 billion or better on EBITDA. What does it take for this business to get back to that level maybe over the next one to two to three years?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. And, you know, great question, Duffy. And Ed and his team are really energized around, you know, getting this business over time, you know, back to sort of a mid 20s EBITDA target margin. What it will take is full plant utilization.

Clearly, you know, volumes are down overall as we look at 2023 today. We expect, you know, that will continue to improve as we go into '24. And clearly, the team's quite focused on the cost side of the equation and, candidly, where we might be able to also deploy capital in that regard. So, a lot of work ahead of us.

But, you know, I think we're -- our view is this is a business. This is the best TiO2 franchise. And, you know, we have a path to get here.

Duffy Fischer -- Goldman Sachs -- Analyst

Great. Thank you, guys.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Arun Viswanathan from RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Arun Viswanathan -- RBC Capital Markets -- Analyst

Great. Thanks for taking my question. Yeah, I guess I wanted to go back to a similar topic. So, you addressed some of the improvement in TiO2.

I guess on the TSS and APM side, I understand that the '24 outlook definitely would get you back to that high single-digit growth. But in '23, I know you faced tough comps in the first half, especially given the pricing that you realized last year, you know, double-digit gains in both businesses. So, we're also hearing some weakness on the electronics value chain as it pertains to APM. So, could you just help us flesh out how those two businesses kind of evolve through the year? And would you expect that those two businesses kind of grow in line with your targets in '23 on an EBITDA basis? Or how should we think about that? Thanks.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. No, we certainly expect, as I said at the opening, continued growth in line with our long-term forecast on TSS in 2023. Clearly, you know, we are continuing to see growth in the deployment of our low global warming Opteon refrigerants as more and more stationary OEM players, you know, move to Opteon blend. So, you know, really good growth there.

We are expecting growth in auto OEMs this year, consistent with the ISH outlook. And then, you know, a big part of the TSS business is aftermarket, you know, the replacement market in the stationary business, and a growing pool of vehicles that require HFO technology. So, let me just say, you know, we're seeing good demand signals here. Clearly, you know, with the quota now in place, this is the second year, we don't expect the same kind of price delta as we saw going into last year.

But certainly, market dynamics continue to be very favorable with an effective quota regime. On APM, you know, we remain sold out on a number of product lines. We're sold out on Teflon PFA. And yeah, while there is some weakness in the electronics market, you know, new semicon fabs, especially where a U.S.

supply chain is favored, you know, are moving forward. And then, on our hydrogen economy business, there is a huge backlog on electrolyzers and PEM membranes required for those electrolyzers. So, you know, Denise and her team, while we're seeing some fade in less strategic products, are really working at opening up capacity to meet customer demand in some of our higher-value applications, which we are investing in also with some of the investments we announced last year. So, overall, I think we're quite confident in the growth thesis of both TSS and APM.

Arun Viswanathan -- RBC Capital Markets -- Analyst

OK. Thanks for that, Mark. And just as a quick follow-up, a couple of years ago, you had mentioned about 125 million annual headwind from illegal imports of refrigerants into Europe from China. Is that still the range of what you're seeing? Or does that also -- is that also less imports into there? Would that also be a tailwind that you'd experience in TSS? Thanks.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. You know, I think we would we would see that the situation in Europe is improved. We continue to do a lot of work as an industry to monitor illegal imports. But my sense is, you know, as we're moving more and more to Opteon blends in the European equipment base, that's becoming less of a factor on its own.

Sameer, if you have any other thoughts.

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Nothing. Mark, you laid it out pretty nicely. Arun, as you kind of look at the guide and the impact that you laid out, our guide, of course, anticipates that there's no further deterioration in any of the illegal import situation that you have seen in the past. But at the same time, we're really excited about the growth that's coming from the U.S.

side, right, with the AIM Act, and there's a much better regulatory regime, much better enforcement regime around these products. So, we feel very good about that. And the team is really focused on really pricing the products based on value-based strategy here. So, we feel really good about the TSS business.

Arun Viswanathan -- RBC Capital Markets -- Analyst

Thanks.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of John McNulty from BMO Capital Markets. Your line is open.

John McNulty -- BMO Capital Markets -- Analyst

Yeah. Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. So, on TSS, you know, it had a kind of a wild ride in '22 with some huge numbers in the first three quarters.

And then, 4Q, I mean, look, you guys warned, "Hey, raw materials are going to pinch us at some point." It certainly seemed to nick you a good bit more than I think we were expecting it to. So, I guess can you help to unpack that? And then, I guess, you know, with your optimism for hitting 30% plus in 2023 in terms of the margins, or kind of going back to your normal-ish levels, I guess how should we think about the cadence of the recovery there? And, you know, maybe even a little bit of color for 1Q would be helpful.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. So, John, let me start, and then I'll ask Sameer to give you some added color on sort of the Q4 margins and some of the mechanics and calculus behind the numbers. Let me start by saying, you know, we are fully -- I would say, let me start by saying Q4 interest was weaker than we expected. So, while we were projecting lower margins in the quarter, we were disappointed with our own results in the quarter.

Sameer will take you through, you know, why the math -- how the math works. As it relates to 2023 Q4 and the unique attributes of Q4 should not be viewed as any way as overshadowing the year we expect ahead of us in 2023. And so, while we don't give a quarterly guide on any of our segments, we would expect our recovery, our margin recovery to start early in the year. And as I said, we expect our full year margins to be north of 30%, consistent with our long-term guide.

So, maybe I'll ask Sameer to give us some more color on Q4.

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Thanks, Mark. As we look at the Q4 margin, right, on the TSS side, it's really driven by three factors. First one is really what you would expect to the typical seasonality in the business because in the fourth quarter, our product mix tends to be more Southern hemisphere-based. So, these are lower-margin products for us.

So, from a seasonality perspective, the Q4 margin generally are going to be a little lower than the second and third quarter. But then the other two factors are really kind of specific to the timing at this point. The first one is the raw material inflation that hit us, as some of the products coming that we're exporting kind of their prices increase. And the other one was a lower fixed cost absorption, which happened because of the plant turnarounds in the early part of the quarter.

And then in December, the winter storm had a pretty meaningful impact on the business as well at Corpus. So, those two are driving the unit rates. And given that we are a LIFO company, we took a lot of that cost upfront in this quarter. And as we kind of go into Q1 and into 2023, the margins should moderate back toward the guidance that we have given for the longer-term margin of the business.

John McNulty -- BMO Capital Markets -- Analyst

OK. That's helpful color. And then on the on the APM business. So, you know, for the first time, you're kind of breaking it out now into two new segments, I guess, can you help us to understand the margin profile? Roughly, I mean, obviously you didn't give it, so maybe you don't want explicit detail out there.

But how should we think about maybe the difference in the margins between them considering, one, it's higher growth and seems like certainly higher value, but you're also investing a lot in it and one maybe is a little bit, you know, taking less investment but also maybe a little bit less value add. So, I guess can you help us to think about the margin differential there?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, I'd say our entire APM portfolio has very good or a very high variable margin but, clearly, value in use on something, you know, like PEM membrane in an electrolyzer or a very high purity PFA for, you know, small-node semicon applications. Fabs, you know, carry a premium to the portfolio on average. I think the intent of breaking out our performance solutions versus our advanced materials was really to demonstrate the growth rate over time. Clearly, the numbers in the chart, you know, using three years of financials start with the COVID year.

So, you know, the growth rates are probably a little higher on our advanced materials than we would expect over time. But recall that we expect the growth in our performance solutions to really start to accelerate as we approach the middle of the decade. So, we felt it was important for investors to reflect that double-digit growth rate, which is a, you know, a multiple of GDP as we move forward. And clearly, you know, we view that as a premium business, both in terms of a strategic value and, obviously, margin to the rest of the portfolio.

John McNulty -- BMO Capital Markets -- Analyst

Got it. Thanks very much for the color. Appreciate it.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Matthew DeYoe from Bank of America. Your line is open.

Matthew DeYoe -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Good morning. Can you talk to just the working capital headwinds to cash flow, thinking primarily inventories? How will that balance out? Is that going to drive lower operating leverage in 1Q? And I guess what should we think for working capital headwinds, tailwinds for the year?

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. Matt, why don't I take this one, and Mark can comment afterwards. Essentially, as we now look at the working capital, really, it's predominantly in the TT business that we have seen in Q4 as we kind of move into 2023 into Q1 and beyond. Q1, as you know, seasonally, we typically consume working capital, right, because of the seasonality both of the TT business and the TSS business.

So, we will consume working capital in Q1. But as we kind of move through the year, we should be able to release that working capital. And that's reflected in the guide that we've given for the free cash flow greater than $350 million.

Matthew DeYoe -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

OK. And I want to talk about PFAS. There's a potential or proposed ban in Europe. And wondering what that looks like for your thoughts on the Nafion expansion in France.

And I guess, conversely, you know, 3M announced that it was closing some of its PFAS or all of its PFAS operations. I mean, what are you thinking about -- or how are you thinking about that as an opportunity for your business and potential market share gains in the next years?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

So, maybe I'll start with 3M first. And clearly, the way we think about it, you know, fluorine chemistries are essential and, we believe, based on our technology, can be made responsibly. And so, we continue to make significant investments in driving that growth, whether it's, you know, for semicon applications, especially as countries around the world look at, you know, shoring up their own semicon supply chain, or, you know, whether it's, you know, in hydrogen, you know, renewable hydrogen, you know, where we're really focused or, candidly, also in the EV applications, where our polymers are critical. So, you know, if you want these technologies, you know, our view today is, you know, flora polymers are the best solutions for those needs.

Clearly, you know, 3M made a decision based on what they thought was prudent for them and their shareholders. We think it's prudent to continue investing in making flora polymers responsibly for the next generation of the economy. As we think about the dossier in Europe, clearly, that's a multiyear process. And so, we will be very engaged working with our customers, working with the same industries that I just talked to, you know, make it very clear to regulatory authorities that this is a chemistry that Europe should embrace, and they should embrace participants like ourselves who can make this chemistry responsibly.

We have always been an advocate of science-based regulations. And, in fact, you know, we have science based targets in our scope 1, 2, and 3 emissions. So, you know, this is the beginning of a long journey as it relates to the dossier. But you can expect that we will be very involved and very vocal with our customers in why we believe fluorine chemistry has a place in modern society.

Matthew DeYoe -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Understood. Thanks.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Josh Spector from UBS. Your line is open.

Josh Spector -- UBS -- Analyst

Yeah. Hey, thanks for taking my question. Want to see if I could try again on the cadence of earnings through the year? I've been getting a lot of questions from investors about really for the first quarter and what that step-up look like. Is there any way you can frame kind of a range of what you're assuming there for maybe first half, second half? And then, you know, relatedly, when you look at your range for the year, the low end, you talked about recessionary conditions.

What really plays out in that scenario? I guess, how conservative is that relative to what you're seeing today? Thanks.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. Josh, thanks for your question. And clearly, the team's really focused coming off of Q4, you know, to drive improved results, you know, starting in Q1. So, let me just say, the team's fully energized around delivering a great year.

And we need to make every quarter count. You know, as I think about the -- you know, as Sameer alluded to, there were some cost issues in Q4 that were unique to Q4. And clearly, you know, we've started to see on some of the input costs, some roll-over, you know, starting already. Clearly, we're seeing, you know, if you're looking at nat gas prices in the U.S., which really impact our TT operations, you're seeing big improvement there.

You're seeing a weaker U.S. dollar, which is also helpful. So, you know, I would say, there were some unique cost issues in Q4 which, you know, we would not expect to repeat in Q1. And then, on the demand side, clearly, you know, TT is going to start off the year in a weaker place.

But we expect some moderation based on, you know, the end of destocking in Europe, the improvement in Asia after the, you know, Lunar New Year. And then, you know, we're continuing to see the U.S. hang in there as we move through the year. As we said earlier, you know, our TSS franchise is very strong, and so we would expect to see a good start to the year starting in Q1.

And then, on APM, yes, we have the higher costs on some of the input costs flowing through, which really impacted Q4. But also, we see, in the year, the ramp-up of growth by relieving capacity constraints in some of our higher-value applications. So, listen, I think it'll be a journey throughout the year. But clearly, I want to make it clear that we're very focused on making every quarter count.

Maybe I'll ask Sameer to give a little more color.

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Thank you, Mark. Josh, as you're going to look at the three businesses, right, on the TT side, as you're going to look through the year, as we said in the prepared remarks and on the investor deck as well, we anticipate the destocking to be near end. And so, as we think about the rest of the year, the demand recovery that we remodel and what you see in the guide is really through the second half of 2023, so very slow ramp at the half that we anticipate at this point. On the TSS side, you know, only one thing additive I would say to what Mark's already said is, you know, given all the market and regulatory dynamics, we see pretty good from the demand perspective, and we still believe, you know, as we're going to look at the reopenings post-COVID, there's still a backlog in the commercial side.

So, we anticipate that to provide the tailwinds as we get into the spring season and especially in the first half of the year. And APM has lesser seasonality, but it will be a -- you know, the trend should be similar to this year.

Josh Spector -- UBS -- Analyst

OK. So, and then, I mean, if you could just comment on the lower end of the guide. I guess, what's baked in there in terms of recessionary expectations? And just I guess a follow-up to the prior one, could you size the cost benefit you expect to see sequentially?

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. If you look at the low end side in the modest recession, what we have assumed is the U.S. will have a modest recession, and, also, the recovery in the Europe and Asia will be delayed until 2024. So, that's the way we're going to model from an economic scenario point of view.

And of our three businesses, as you know, TiO2 is the most economically sensitive business, so that's a big part of the guide range.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Hassan Ahmed from Alembic Global Advisors. Your line is open.

Hassan Ahmed -- Alembic Global -- Analyst

Good morning, Mark and Sameer. You know, I'm just taking a look at the guidance for 2023 and specifically on the TT side of things. You know, you guys had adjusted EBITDA margins of 7% in Q4. And if I take a look at the commentary you're giving or baking into 2023 guidance, you know, you're talking about 2023 adjusted EBITDA being similar to 2022.

So, you know, call it, around 18%. So, I'm just trying to understand how we bridge to that.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. You get -- yeah. So, Hassan, thanks for the question. Clearly, we would expect to see margin improvement starting in Q1.

As Sameer said, some of the higher-cost inventory will still be flowing through the P&L. But already, you know, we're seeing some improvement in input costs that will start to impact our business in Q1. The guide, as Sameer said, the bottom and the top end of the range are really tied to how strong or weak the second half recovery is with respect to TT volumes. So, I'd say, for the full year, you know, we are expecting volumes to be down year over year slightly.

But the range of volume delta to 2022 will depend on the second half recovery. And clearly, as we get better utilizations of our plants in the second half and lower input costs, you know, we arrive back at a full year EBITDA margin in line with 2022.

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

And, Hassan, just one more thing I would say on the margin side to what Mark just said is the margin recovery will be through the year. So, you're not going to see 18% right away, but this will be a margin recovery through the year as the things that have started easing up on the cost side, thanks for the great work with the team and also on the commercial side by Ed and team, those things should really start flowing and benefiting the P&L in the margin as we're going to go through the year. So, it'll be a modest improvement for the year.

Hassan Ahmed -- Alembic Global -- Analyst

Understood. Very helpful. And as a follow-up, you know, just sticking to the guidance and now on the EPS side of things, I mean, I take a look at the EPS range for 2023 you guys have given. And it assumes flat sort of shares outstanding, right? You guys, obviously, repurchased 144 million in shares in Q4 for $95 million in 2022.

So, I'm just trying to understand how we should think about sort of, you know, the run rate for buybacks and as it relates to the guidance as well.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

So clearly, we don't factor -- you know, we keep the share count constant as you noted, Hassan, in our guidance. But clearly, you know, we have demonstrated historically, you know, our willingness to return cash to shareholders while also deleveraging and funding the escrow if you saw how we deployed capital. As you think about this year with our free cash flow guide of greater than 350, the way I think about capital allocation this year is we're stepping up our investment in growth to fund, you know, really high-return applications in both TSS and APM. Clearly, you know, we think we're at a prudent leverage ratio today.

But, you know, we will also keep in mind, and we have an approval from our board, around stock repurchases. Clearly, we are -- as we think of the year also, I would just say, you know, we're keen to resolve, you know, legacy claims against the company. And so, we want to also factor that in mind as we think of the five key strategic priorities which drive value for our shareholders over time. So, listen, the point is well taken on the share count.

We will continue to deploy capital against, you know, the four key priorities, the top four. But we also use capital allocation wisely to drive or augment the value from those first four priorities as we move forward in time.

Hassan Ahmed -- Alembic Global -- Analyst

Very helpful. Thank you so much, guys.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from a line of Vincent Andrews from Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.

Vincent Andrews -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

Thank you very much. Could I just ask, you know, in your two comments, you talked about the recovery through the year. You spend a lot of time referencing Europe and Asia and China, which is easy to understand. Could you talk about sort of the end markets? And, you know, I think we all have a pretty good idea of what's going on in paint and coatings.

But what about the balance of the book? What are you seeing in terms of how those customers are behaving? And what is your expectation for how their volume is going to flow through the year?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah, well, clearly, as we think of our TiO2 business globally, you know, the majority of our product ends up in architectural coatings. And, you know, the U.S. market continues to be robust. There is still, and if you listen to some of the calls by coating customers, a backlog on the professional side.

Europe, you know, is primarily a coatings market for us as well. And we had seen in a pretty significant destocking in the second half, especially in Q4, you know. We're seeing signs that that's moderating. China is a high-end coating market for us, also a laminate market.

We're also big in laminates in Europe. Those markets are tied to end consumer demand in, you know, whether it's furniture, flooring, or kitchen cabinets. And so, you know, again, in Europe, I think the expectation is we'll start to see some return as the customer and the end consumer becomes less stressed, you know, as it relates to energy cost in Europe. And then finally, you know, the last part of our business is in plastics.

And, you know, that that that tends to be more tied to global macro, I would say, generally. But even there, I would say, you know, if we look at, you know, strong auto globally and other applications like that, we would expect, you know, continued recovery throughout the year as well off of, you know, what we saw in the second half of last year.

Vincent Andrews -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

OK. And just as a follow-up, I just wasn't 100% clear on TSS in the fourth quarter on the volume side of the equation, whether that came in below your expectations and what caused it.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. So, I'd say TSS, you know, seasonally, Q4, is a weak quarter. Right. So, as you know, you know, the season can either be relatively good or relatively weak.

So, I would say, you know, our volumes were somewhat lower than expectation. But I would say what transpired in Q4, which Sameer took us through in detail, is more some of the movements on the cost side. So, you know, it's seasonally a weak quarter. We had some pretty major plant turnarounds, or TAR as we call them, that, that, you know, were completed in Q4.

So, you always have the start up from a major TAR. You know, you have a lot of costs being absorbed as you bring your plants up online. And then, we had the winter storm, you know, at the end, which also resulted in either lower operating rates or, you know, higher costs related to how you [Inaudible] the plants after the storm. So, I'd say, you know, Q4, from a TSS perspective, had elements of maybe slightly weaker demand.

But I would say the cost factors were probably more significant in terms of the margin compression that we saw.

Vincent Andrews -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

Thanks so much.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of John Roberts from Credit Suisse. Your line is open.

John Roberts -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Thank you. Could you comment on the backlog for Nafion? And do you think the backlog accelerates in 2023 after the IRA? How far out are you taking orders?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

John, That's a great question. And there was -- you know, as I understand it, there was a two-year backlog on PEM electrolyzers before IRA. So, with IRA, you know, the inbound requests for access to our capacity are significant. And Denise and her team are really working hard to unlock existing capacity.

Clearly, you know, we're involved in hydrogen in a very significant way. We have they announced joint venture with FUMATECH in Germany. We we're a partner in the hydrogen hub application for West Virginia. And we also announced the um, you know, the partnership with the DOD on clean hydrogen at our facility here, you know, with University of Delaware here, here in Delaware.

So, a lot going on in the hydrogen space. And Chemours continues to be extremely relevant in the work we're doing, both on improving membranes, but also improving our volumes to meet the significant backlog in announced projects globally.

John Roberts -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

And then, you mentioned higher legal costs in 2023. Is that related to preparing for PFAS, or increased settlement negotiations, or something else there?

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. You know, I'd say, you know, we've been in settlement discussions regarding the water utility cases and have now progressed those discussions through the court appointed mediator. So, you know, in anticipation of the work we're doing there and other aspects, you know, we're also very focused there. Clearly, we have a number of major remediation projects to online that we're bringing to completion.

But maybe I'll ask Sameer to give some more granularity.

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

I think, Mark you touched it. John, the way I would think about the guide on the copper and other side, which I'm assuming you're referring to. It's a combination of both, both the legacy environmental and some of the legal costs. So, it's not just legal.

John Roberts -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Thank you.

Operator

And there are no further questions at this time. Mr. Mark Newman, I turn the call back over to you for some final closing remarks.

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Thanks, Rob. And again, we're really excited as we look into the new year, you know, where we're going with Chemours in our next chapter. We're really excited about the work we're doing to drive improved results in TT and prosecuting the growth in TSS and APM and resolving some of the legacy issues that, you know, we've had since our inception. So, a lot of good work here being done.

I look forward to seeing as many of you as possible this year and, you know, getting the word out on what Chemours is doing around sustainability led-growth going forward. So, thank you and look forward to seeing you all this year.

Operator

[Operator signoff]

Duration: 0 minutes

Call participants:

Jonathan Lock -- Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer

Mark Newman -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Duffy Fischer -- Goldman Sachs -- Analyst

Sameer Ralhan -- Senior Vice President, Chief Financial Officer

Arun Viswanathan -- RBC Capital Markets -- Analyst

John McNulty -- BMO Capital Markets -- Analyst

Matthew DeYoe -- Bank of America Merrill Lynch -- Analyst

Josh Spector -- UBS -- Analyst

Hassan Ahmed -- Alembic Global -- Analyst

Vincent Andrews -- Morgan Stanley -- Analyst

John Roberts -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

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