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DATE
Thursday, July 24, 2025 at 11 a.m. ET
CALL PARTICIPANTS
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer — David Smith
President — Jeff Dyke
Chief Financial Officer — Heath Byrd
Chief Operating Officer, EchoPark Segment — Tim Keen
Vice President, Investor Relations — Danny Wieland
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TAKEAWAYS
GAAP EPS: Loss of $1.34 per share driven by non-cash franchise asset impairment charges.
Adjusted EPS: Adjusted EPS was $2.19 per share for Q2 2025, representing a 49% year-over-year increase after excluding non-cash charges and specified other items (adjusted, non-GAAP).
Consolidated Revenue: Achieved a second-quarter record.
Franchise Dealership Revenue: $3.1 billion on a same-store basis for Q2 2025, up 6% year over year, marked as a second-quarter record.
Same-store New Retail Volume: Grew 5% year over year.
New Vehicle Gross Profit Per Unit (GPU): $3,391 same-store new vehicle GPU for Q2 2025, down 6% year over year but up 10% sequentially from the first quarter of 2025
Franchise F&I GPU: Reached a record $2,721 per unit for Q2 2025, and 14% year over year.
Same-store Fixed Operations Gross Profit: Same-store fixed operations gross profit and same-store customer pay gross profit were up 9% year over year and 7% sequentially.
EchoPark Segment Income: $11.7 million in segment income for Q2 2025, setting an all-time quarterly record.
EchoPark Adjusted EBITDA: Adjusted EBITDA was $16.4 million for Q2 2025, up 128% year over year and at an all-time record.
EchoPark Revenue: $509 million in EchoPark revenue for Q2 2025
EchoPark Gross Profit: $62 million in EchoPark gross profit for Q2 2025, setting a second-quarter record and up 22% year over year.
EchoPark Total GPU: $3,747 per unit for Q2 2025, representing an all-time record
EchoPark SG&A Leverage: Improved by 110 basis points sequentially from Q1 to Q2 2025.
Powersports Revenue: $48.1 million for Q2 2025, a quarterly record, up 21% year over year.
Powersports Gross Profit: $12.5 million gross profit for Q2 2025, up 17% year over year.
Powersports Adjusted EBITDA: Adjusted EBITDA was $2 million for Q2 2025, down 13% year over year.
Liquidity: $775 million in available liquidity as of Q2 2025, including $210 million in cash and floor plan deposits.
Strategic Acquisition: Closed acquisition of four Jaguar Land Rover dealerships in California with no impact on the reported quarter, management expects about $500 million in annualized revenues from these stores going forward, as stated in the Q2 2025 earnings call.
Quarterly Cash Dividend: Board approved a 9% increase to $0.38 per share, payable on October 15, 2025, for holders of record as of September 15, 2025.
SUMMARY
Management emphasized that near-term consumer demand in April and early May of Q2 2025 benefited from anticipated tariff-driven price increases, resulting in temporarily higher new vehicle unit sales and GPU. Adjusted EBITDA at EchoPark and F&I gross profit at the Franchise segment reached all-time quarterly records, as cost-reduction initiatives in product partnerships materially enhanced profitability. Powersports adjusted EBITDA was $2 million, down 13% year over year, but is expected to increase per typical seasonality in Q3. Management communicated confidence in maintaining higher F&I GPU levels for the remainder of 2025, citing “structurally higher than pre-pandemic levels” resulting from refined product offerings and renegotiated cost structures. Inventory management at EchoPark remained cautious to preserve margin in a volatile used car market, with current guidance for $50 million to $55 million in segment EBITDA (non-GAAP) for the year, up from previous guidance. EchoPark’s purchase of vehicles “off the street,” now at over 40% of total acquisition mix, is twice the prior year’s level, providing margin uplift amid limited lease return inventory. Management expects a pronounced positive impact from rising lease return volumes beginning in 2026, with substantial benefits projected for EchoPark’s sourcing and sales growth.
President Dyke indicated stable expectations for franchise F&I GPU.
EchoPark’s retail unit sales growth and margin improvements are being balanced against volume, with COO Keen noting, we managed through that very strategically held on to our gross, didn't buy up.
Vice President Wieland highlighted SG&A leverage in EchoPark, saying, the SG&A actually levered about 110 basis points from 1Q to 2Q.
Management’s capital deployment strategy will remain diversified, with reinvestment planned across franchise, EchoPark, and powersports segments.
The newly acquired Jaguar Land Rover stores are expected to make Sonic Automotive the largest retailer for those brands in the U.S. and to further enhancing our luxury brand portfolio.
INDUSTRY GLOSSARY
GPU (Gross Profit per Unit): Total gross profit earned per individual car (new or used) sold, including all front-end and back-end sources.
F&I (Finance & Insurance): Income generated from products such as extended warranties, service contracts, GAP insurance, and retail auto financing activities.
MMR (Manheim Market Report): A widely used benchmark for wholesale used vehicle values in the U.S. auto industry, influencing pricing and inventory management.
SAAR (Seasonally Adjusted Annual Rate): Industry measure used to estimate total annual new vehicle sales based on the current-month selling rate, adjusted for seasonal fluctuations.
“Off the street” vehicle sourcing: Acquisition of used vehicle inventory directly from consumers through trade-ins or direct purchase, rather than at wholesale auctions.
Full Conference Call Transcript
David Smith: Thank you very much, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Sonic Automotive second quarter 2025 earnings call. I'm David Smith, the company's Chairman and CEO. Joining me on today's call is our President, Jeff Dyke, our CFO, Heath Byrd, our EchoPark Chief Operating Officer, Mr. Tim King, and our VP of Investor Relations, Danny Wieland. I would like to open the call by sincerely thanking our amazing teammates for continuing to deliver a world-class guest experience for our customers. We believe our strong relationships with our teammates, our guests, and manufacturer lending partners are key to our future success.
And as always, I would like to thank them all for their continued support and loyalty to the Sonic Automotive team. Turning now to our second quarter results. Primarily as a result of a non-cash charge, a non-cash charge relating to our annual franchise asset impairment testing, reported GAAP EPS was a loss of $1.34 per share. Excluding these non-cash impairment charges, and the effect of certain other items as detailed in our press release this morning, adjusted EPS for the second quarter was $2.19 per share, a 49% increase year over year. Consolidated total revenues were a second quarter record, up 6% year over year, while consolidated gross profit grew 12% and consolidated adjusted EBITDA increased 22%.
Moving now to our Franchise Dealership segment results. We generated second quarter record franchise revenues of $3.1 billion, up 6% year over year on a same-store basis. This revenue growth was driven by a 5% increase in same-store new retail volume and a 10% increase in same-store fixed operations revenues. Second quarter results benefited from an increase in consumer demand and new vehicle sales in April and early May, which we expect was the result of customers buying in advance of anticipated tariff-driven price increases. Our fixed operations gross profit and F&I gross profit also set all-time quarterly records, up 12% and 15% year over year, respectively, on a same-store basis.
These two high-margin business lines continue to increase their share of our total gross profit pool, approaching 75% of total gross profit for the second quarter, mitigating the potential tariff impact on vehicle pricing and margin to our overall profitability while also leveraging our SG&A expenses more efficiently than vehicle-related gross profit. Our same-store new vehicle GPU was $3,391, down 6% year over year but up 10% sequentially from the first quarter due to a surge in pre-tariff consumer demand. On the used side of the franchise business, same-store used volume decreased 4% year over year driven by lower supply of late-model used vehicles and ongoing consumer affordability challenges. Same-store used GPU increased 2% sequentially to $1,590 per unit.
Our F&I performance continues to be a strength with all-time record quarterly franchised F&I GPU of $2,721 per unit in the second quarter, up 12% sequentially and 14% year over year. The continued growth in our F&I per unit supports our view that F&I per unit will remain structurally higher than pre-pandemic levels even in a challenging consumer affordability environment as we continue to fine-tune our F&I product offerings and cost structure. Our parts and service or fixed operations business remained strong with a 12% increase in same-store fixed operations gross profit in the second quarter. Same-store warranty gross profit continued to be a tailwind in the second quarter, up 34% year over year.
And same-store customer pays gross profit grew 9% year over year, and 7% sequentially. We believe this continued strength in customer pay revenues is attributable to the increase in technician headcount we achieved in 2024 and our efforts to not only retain these technicians but to continue to grow our technician capacity in 2025. Turning now to our EchoPark segment. Second quarter segment income was an all-time quarterly record $11.7 million and adjusted EBITDA was an all-time quarterly record of $16.4 million, up 128% year over year. For the second quarter, we reported EchoPark revenues of $509 million, down 2% year over year and second quarter record EchoPark gross profit of $62 million, which was up 22% year over year.
EchoPark segment retail unit sales volume for the quarter increased 1% year over year and EchoPark segment total GPU was an all-time quarterly record of $3,747 per unit, up $669 per unit year over year and $336 sequentially from the first quarter. We continue to believe that our data-driven centralized inventory management strategy is a key differentiator for us, which should help to minimize disruptions from market volatility in the short term while maximizing EchoPark's long-term growth potential. When combined with the strategic adjustments we made to our EchoPark business model, we believe we are well-positioned to resume disciplined long-term growth for EchoPark in 2026, assuming used vehicle market conditions sufficiently improve. Turning now to our Powersports segment.
We generated record second quarter revenues of $48.1 million, up 21% year over year and second quarter gross profit of $12.5 million, up 17% year over year. Our Powersports segment adjusted EBITDA was $2 million, down 13% year over year but beginning to ramp up ahead of what is typically a seasonally strong third quarter. We are beginning to see the benefits of our investment in modernizing the powersports business and we remain focused on identifying operational synergies within our current network before deploying capital to expand our powersports footprint. Finally, turning to our balance sheet, we ended the quarter with $775 million in available liquidity, including $210 million in combined cash and floor plan deposits on hand.
Our focus on maintaining a strong balance sheet and liquidity position allowed us to complete the acquisition of four Jaguar Land Rover dealerships in California, using cash and floor plan deposits on hand. I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome these teammates to the Sonic Automotive family. This acquisition closed on June 30, so there was no impact to our second quarter results, but we do anticipate these stores will contribute approximately $500 million in annualized revenues to our Franchise Dealership segment and make Sonic Automotive the largest Jaguar Land Rover retailer in the US, further enhancing our luxury brand portfolio.
Going forward, we remain focused on deploying capital via a diversified growth strategy across our franchise dealerships, EchoPark, and Powersports segments to grow our revenue base and enhance shareholder returns. In addition, I'm very pleased to report today that our Board of Directors approved a 9% increase to our quarterly cash dividend to $0.38 per share payable on October 15, 2025, to all stockholders of record on September 15, 2025. As we told you back in April, we continue to work closely with our partners to understand the impact of tariffs on manufacturing production and pricing decisions and the resulting impact tariffs may have on vehicle affordability and consumer demand later this year.
To date, we have not seen a material impact on vehicle pricing as a result of tariffs, but that could change as the model year 2026 vehicles begin to arrive at our dealerships late in the third quarter. Despite this uncertainty, our team remains focused on near-term execution and adapting to ongoing changes in the automotive retail environment and macroeconomic backdrop while making strategic decisions to maximize long-term results. Furthermore, we remain confident that we have the right strategy, the right people, and the right culture to continue to grow our business and create long-term value for our stakeholders. This concludes our opening remarks and we look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you. We will now be conducting a question and answer session. Our first question today comes from Jeff Licht of Stephens. Please proceed with your question.
Jeff Licht: Good morning, gentlemen. Congrats on a great quarter again.
David Smith: Thank you. Good morning.
Jeff Licht: I was wondering, look, there's a lot of crosscurrents and noise in 2Q. Obviously, the beginning of the quarter maybe looks a little different than the exit. You have some tariff deals, I'm just curious of the things, you know, what surprised you the most? What are you pleased with the most? And as we kind of head into the back half, you know, what are the things you think are kinda indicative of how the back half will go versus you might say to the analyst community, hey. Those particular metrics, I'd be cautious with those and don't read too much into them.
Jeff Dyke: Hey, Jeff. It's Jeff Dyke. Yeah, I mean, obviously, the first part of the quarter took off due to the tariff noise. It did slow down at the June and was slow a little bit in July. But what is surprising a little bit is the business, the back half of July is picking up nicely. We're going to have a great July, and that's not something that we really anticipated. We thought it would be more average given all the noise with the tariffs. Obviously, the Japan deal is gonna help. We need to secure something with the EU, but that's a surprise. I'm very proud of our F&I performance.
We've worked very hard to increase our product penetration above the two-point-zero mark and we've worked very hard on reducing costs with our partners that provide the products. And the combination of those things is really driven, as you can see in the quarter, a nice, nice increase. And we expect that increase to continue. The $2,700 number is a number that feels good for us moving forward from a franchise perspective for the rest of the year. And then, obviously, we're very, very proud of the work that we've done at EchoPark. EchoPark is just on fire, selling a lot of cars. A little more margin pressure, I think, in the third quarter, than we might anticipate.
And maybe the back half of the year. But we're hitting all of our expectations. Obviously, the profit's great. And that's putting us in a position to really begin to expand EchoPark as we move into 2026.
David Smith: And this is David. I think that it's important to emphasize that our EchoPark stores still have a lot of runway left, a lot of performance increases to go yet in our current store base. I think that's exciting and our team did obviously an outstanding job. Another point to note is that our powersports business again, is a seasonal business. So we have our we're very excited that coming up next month is our 85th Annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally. 85th anniversary. We're expecting as many as 800,000 people will come out there for that. And we're expecting a huge some huge numbers to report. On that in next quarter.
Jeff Licht: And then just a quick follow-up. I'm curious your thoughts on the lease return kind of trough this year versus next year. I don't wanna say it's gonna be a boom, but it should it'd be hard for it not to be considerably better than this year. Curious how that ripples through both in your franchise business and EchoPark?
Jeff Dyke: Yeah. That's huge. I mean, we are at the bottom, you know, at the bottom of this now. And obviously, as lease returns pick up, that makes a huge difference in our used vehicle inventory. And our ability to grow our volume. Makes it a lot easier to access inventory. So it's going to make a difference in '26. There's no question it will help EchoPark as well. And then as we get into '27 and '28, it really gets back to the pre-pandemic levels and that is a game changer from an EchoPark perspective. It does help our franchise business. There's no question.
But it allows EchoPark to have access to inventory that's just really not as accessible right now. We're doing a great job buying more cars off the street. We're hitting, you know, at times above 40% of our total mix. Off the street and trades, which is huge. That's double what we were doing last year. But the lease returns are going to make a big, big difference, and that's just a honey hole that's coming for us.
Jeff Licht: Awesome. Well, thanks very much, and I look forward to chatting with you later.
Jeff Dyke: Thanks, Jeff. Thank you.
Operator: The next question is from Rajat Gupta of JPMorgan. Please proceed with your question.
Rajat Gupta: Great. Thanks for taking the question. I had one question on EchoPark and just one follow-up on GPU. On EchoPark, if you look at just the volume trajectory, in the second quarter, obviously, GPUs were very strong. You know, is there an element of your over here of you know, trading off one for the other? Because we would have expected volumes to do better. Just relative to the industry seasonality. So I'm curious if there is a bit of a change in approach or strategy as to how you wanna grow overall EchoPark profits versus just, like, historically, you know, how you had wanted to grow the business? And I have a quick follow-up. Thanks.
Jeff Dyke: We're just being cautious in terms of the inventory management. Tim can chime in here in a sec. Yeah, we're being cautious in terms of how much inventory we're buying and maximizing our margin. So the total gross dollars is growing the bottom line. And just I would expect this to kind of continue for the rest of this year kind of in this range in comparison to last year, somewhere in this ball. And then for us, I think we announced $50 million to $55 million in terms of EBITDA for the year now, upping our guidance from $30 million to $35 million I think. So, yeah, I think that's right.
But it doesn't mean there's not more volume there. We're just being real cautious and not going out overbuying and making some of the mistakes that we see happening out there today. And so it's not a concern for us. We can turn up the volume when we want, but we're just managing the gross and the profit and the volume. And I think Tim and team are doing a great job. Tim, you wanna add to that?
Tim Keen: Yes. I mean, the second quarter, we saw a fairly unstable MMR market. Going on the upside. Probably caused by the tariff scares as well. And so we managed through that very strategically held on to our gross, didn't buy up. You know, kept day supply where we wanted it. And I thought we managed through that well, and we'll continue to do that through the rest of the year as we see opportunities.
Danny Wieland: And I think one more point, this is Danny. If you look at the trend in SG&A at EchoPark, despite the fact that we saw that sequential step down in volume, the SG&A actually levered about 110 basis points from 1Q to 2Q. Just proves we've got some flexibility in the model based on the different contributions of gross via volume, front-end gross, or F&I. We can adapt and flex over the next couple of quarters here as the used market becomes more of a tailwind for us.
Rajat Gupta: Got it. Got it. Yeah. It was nice to see the SG&A step down clearly. And then sorry, I have just one more on just F&I, you know, before the GPU question. You mentioned, you know, some of the changes in your agreements with the partners. That drove the F&I increase. Curious if you could elaborate a bit more on that. You know, was it on the warranty side? Was it like, the lending side? And was this something that was left on the table, like, in the past? And this like, more entitlement levels. Just curious if we could get a little more color on that.
Jeff Dyke: Yeah. Sure. Mostly this is Jeff. Mostly on the product side. And what we did was put RFQs out, RFPs out. And renegotiated all our positions. And our team did an amazing job. We've been doing that since maybe the end of last year. To now, and that's starting to really pay off. We're saving a ton of money. We've been making our partners a lot of money selling their products. And as we studied that and we looked at how much money they were making, we thought there was opportunity there for us to share in some of the dollars and that came to fruition. And so we're hitting it.
Not only are we performing better at the store level, but we're also going out and reducing our costs. So those things are coming together at the same time, and that's driving much higher penetration. It's driving better margin. And what's great is if we don't sell one more car or one more product, we're making more money. And that was our that was a big focus for us. Like technicians were the first half of last year, this has been a big focus for us. This the first half of this year, and it's really beginning to pay off. And we expect that to continue as we move forward.
Rajat Gupta: Got it. Got it. That's very clear. And just lastly, just on new GPUs, just more housekeeping question. Any color you could give us on how, like, the different month of the quarter did on the new vehicle GPU? You know, April, May, June, how that trended? That would be helpful. Thanks.
Jeff Dyke: Yeah. GPUs in the beginning of the quarter were stronger than they were at the end of the quarter. Yes. As we mentioned, yes, the demand spike that I talked about in our opening comments with the, you know, anticipation of the tariffs. Coming in. People did, you know, absolutely rushed out to buy. Yeah. I mean, we're $3,600 in that ballpark in April. Maybe $3,250 in May, and $3,300 at the end of the quarter, so we get some pickups and stuff in June. But the front-end margin for new is materially higher than what we even anticipated it to be for this calendar year. And I think it's gonna stay in the same ball that we've been running.
There's not any reason for it to, you know, massively drop off. Which is great. That's a great tailwind for us, for the remainder of the year.
Rajat Gupta: Understood. Thanks for all the color, and good luck.
Jeff Dyke: You bet. Thank you. Thank you.
Operator: The next question is from Chris Pierce of Needham and Company. Please proceed with your question.
Chris Pierce: Hey, good morning everyone. Can you just go in deeper on Rajat's question there? We look at front-end growth at EchoPark, it I just wanna confirm, is that sort of a change in strategy or it's due to certain market dynamics in this point in time? I noticed now you're guiding to total vehicle GPU, not F&I GPU. I just kinda wanna get a sense of if it's just a unique moment in time, you're able to take advantage of that or do the inventory or if it's sort of business as usual going forward?
Jeff Dyke: Look, at the end of the day, we're buying more cars off the street. And as we buy more cars off the street, margin is going to go up. That's that 40% number I was talking about. Makes a big difference there. But we do expect margin pressure in the third and fourth quarter. Used car inventory is moving around. Manheim is Tim said earlier, the Manheim indexes are moving around. A lot of that's being played off just because of the tariffs. So, you know, it's gonna be in and around the same ballpark. But if there's $50 or $100 worth of margin pressure there, it's probably, you know, somewhere in that ballpark. In total.
It should get better as we go towards the end of the year, but there's a little uncertainty out there right now, and we'll see how that plays out. Not concerned in terms of the overall volume and the and the profitability, that'll that should continue to stay solid as that's why we took our forecast up for the year.
David Smith: Okay. Perfect. Chris, this is David Smith. And something to note is, you remember our first EchoPark stores we opened in 2014. And if you look at our guest experience, and our market penetration, in a lot of markets, we're the number one dealer in the market. And if you look at our we've got now over 100,000 five-star reviews. A big part of that is of our GPU, I think, is our guest experience and our repeat customers who are just choosing to buy from us again, we've had multiple sales to the same family, and they tell their that it's the entire guest experience, I think, that's paying off for us.
So it's that we have the number one rated guest experience in the industry.
Danny Wieland: And Chris to your point, this is Danny, on the total GPU shift in the guide away from the F&I piece, you've seen now for the last two quarters, we've improved our EchoPark F&I per unit by about $200 a unit quarter over quarter, both in 1Q and in 2Q. And driven by some of the cost structure negotiations that Jeff was talking about. But that gives us more flexibility in terms of the total gross profit equation for EchoPark.
And it's something where if we face front-end margin pressure, as Jeff and Tim have said in the coming quarters, the F&I gains help us maintain that kind of total $3,400 to $3,800 range, which is pretty comparable to what we make on our franchise side despite the pricing differences at EchoPark.
Chris Pierce: Okay. Perfect. And then on just kinda playing off of that. You had talked about the RFQs you put out there for with your existing lenders. Are you seeing new lenders come to the auto loan market the way Carvana is talking about finding new lenders? And is that causing sort of I don't wanna say a power shift, but a dynamic shift where you're able to have a little more pricing power? Is that or is this just leverage with existing lenders, you know, as you kinda grow the relationships and have these long-standing relationships?
Jeff Dyke: Yeah. This is product providers that we're talking about, more along the lines of warranty and gap, and those products that we sell, that's where we're getting the leverage. We're not seeing, you know, a run of new lenders coming into the marketplace. Our margin that we're making from financing is relatively the same. Where we're getting our pick up is through product sales and the cost reductions that we're seeing there. And that's just going back and really working hard. The teams worked very hard on restructuring deals. Still giving great wins to our partners. There's no question.
But sharing in some of the wins that they've had over the years, you know, on the backs of our team working really hard to grow their business. And so we wanna share in some of that, and that's what's happening. And you're seeing our cost reduced, thus growing our margin. Which is great. Like I said earlier, we're not selling another car, we're not selling another product. We can keep the same numbers and have better results because of the work the team has done.
Chris Pierce: Okay. Perfect. And then just lastly for me real quick. EchoPark unit guidance is unchanged, which implies maybe a little bit of a modest pickup in the second half. Well, not pickup, but in the sense of pickup in terms of the growth you just printed at EchoPark units? Is that driven by easier comps in the second half of the year? Or is that just some end market view?
Danny Wieland: It's a little bit of a combination of the two. If you were to look at the back half of 2024, there were some challenges, there were some pockets of consumer weakness on the used car side. So it's a combination of those two things, I think, as we look forward.
Chris Pierce: Okay. Thanks, everybody.
Jeff Dyke: Thank you. Thank you.
Operator: Our next question is from Bret Jordan of Jefferies. Please proceed with your question.
Patrick Buckley: Hey, good morning guys. This is Patrick Buckley on for Bret. Thanks for taking our questions.
Jeff Dyke: Hey,
Patrick Buckley: On the franchise used GPU side, with the first half settling a bit above the upper end of the $1,500 annual, should we expect some moderation into the second half? And what sort of headwinds could you be expecting there?
Jeff Dyke: You know, I think that, we're gonna be in and around that number. It could be just a little bit like at EchoPark. July and August, we're just not quite sure from a tariff perspective what's happening. It's putting day supply pressure and manufacturers are acting a little quirky. You know, trying to get us to take inventory and put inventory in loaner cars and do things that they, you know, had been getting away from. So it might put a little pressure, but in and around that number, I feel comfortable. Yeah. The volume should be higher.
Patrick Buckley: Got it. That's helpful. And then I guess going off that as you said a lot of moving pieces with tariffs you have to shake out. But can you talk a bit about your expectations for new vehicle SAAR trajectory from here and for second half and maybe the annual year?
Jeff Dyke: I mean, your guess is as good as mine. At the end of the day, in the quarter, we went from 17 to 15. Yeah. So it's all over the board. But 15, 16 million SAAR kinda feels right somewhere in that ballpark, you know, unless something else crazy happens and we get another pull ahead or something, something, you know, happens. But somewhere in that ballpark, it's kind of our guess. Yeah. Interest rates drop, that could change the game as well. And we'll just have to see, but it's somewhere in that ballpark.
Patrick Buckley: Got it. That's all from us. Thanks, guys.
Jeff Dyke: Thanks, Patrick.
Operator: There are no further questions at this time. I'll turn the call back over to David Smith for closing comments.
David Smith: Well, thank you everyone for joining us for the call. We'll speak with you next quarter. Have a great day.
Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your participation. This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines and have a wonderful day.