The Optimism Institute's Bill Burke and a Joyride Through the Blue-Sky Boulevards of Optimism

What makes someone an optimist? How do you embody optimism? Who is on your Mount Rushmore of Optimists? And, should we "gather all the optimists and eat the pessimists"? In this podcast, we talk about cultivating optimism, with Bill Burke, founder of The Optimism Institute.

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This video was recorded on April 04, 2024.

David Gardner: I'm in love and I'm not going to hide it. I'm in love and the object of my love is this next hour we're about to spend together. I'm really going to love this hour and I hope you will too. Not just hope though, I'm optimistic that you will love this hour. Probably, if you're like me, you'll go back and sometimes listen to this one again from time-to-time. Hey, I loved my guest this week, Bill Burke, fabulous human being and I'm really in love with our subject this week, he is too, optimism. Buckle up for a joyride through the blue-sky boulevards of optimism. Only, on this week's Rule Breaker Investing.

Bill Burke founded The Optimism Institute in 2022, after an extensive media and sports career as an executive writer and producer. Bill served as CEO of The Weather Channel companies after several years at Time Warner and Turner Broadcasting System, where he was the founding General Manager of turner classic movies, before going on to become president of TBS superstation. Additionally, whenever I think of TBS superstation, I think the Atlanta Braves, but, speaking of baseball, for 15 years, Bill was the co-owner and Chairman of the Main Portland Sea dogs, that's the double a minor league baseball affiliate of the Boston Red Sox.

Bill is a lifelong optimist, in his bio on his website, which is largely what I'm cribbing from. He says, "yeah, I have to be a lifelong optimist because I'm a Detroit Lions fan." He launched, as I mentioned, The Optimism Institute in 2022 with a mission to inspire people with an optimistic, hopeful vision of the world and its future. I also want to mention, he's a fellow podcaster, I bet you know this already. His is the Blue Sky podcast, which speaks to leaders, researchers and thinkers who's stories and insight, this is Bill signature line that I love, will reminds us that there is always blue-sky above, sometimes you just need to get your head above the class to see it. Bill Burke, welcome to Rule Breaker Investing.

Bill Burke: It is my great pleasure to join you today, David, thanks for having me on.

David Gardner: It is a delight Bill. What led you to create The Optimism Institute?

Bill Burke: My wife and I did a year-long academic fellowship and it was designed for people at my stage of career to think about what they want to do next with an emphasis on social impact. We did a three-day deep dive on global mental health. We talked about some very tough stuff, real challenges, but the gentleman who is leading it, left us all with this incredible sense of hope and optimism that we could fix these things. I started bouncing around in my head.

I love to tell stories, I've a media background. I thought, this could be the niche I could fill. I feel like there's an opportunity now to help people who are really suffering from a downward spiral of doom scrolling and pessimism and negativity. It's force-fed us by traditional and social media, but a lot of it's on us and I felt like this was a niche I could fill. I put together the plan. I launched my first podcast with the guests named David Gardner. Yes, you are episode number one.

David Gardner: So honored, still honored.

Bill Burke: Of 2023, I've done a 50-plus episodes, one every week. I've had an incredible time, I'm, feeling better already, and I'm getting great feedback and it's just been a terrific ride.

David Gardner: It really has been Bill and I know you're not mentioning the university whose leadership Institute you graduated from. Is it because it sounds cocky to say Harvard or are you somehow restricted from doing so?

Bill Burke: I am not restricted, I will let you fill that gap, I can say, "There's a school in Boston, Harvard Advanced Leadership Initiative, ALI.

David Gardner: I know how meaningful it was for you, and I assume we're allowed to talk about this and it'll be edited out by my producer Dez, if we're not, but it's March Madness time of year. Did you have a classmate who is a March Madness figure for those of us who are big fans?

Bill Burke: I did, Gus Johnson.

David Gardner: Gus Johnson.

Bill Burke: The man was in my class and he continued to be. He was traveling the world while he joined us. Fantastic guy, also a native Detroiter, by the way, we bonded over Michigan and Detroit sports. Fabulous human being and a great sports guys.

David Gardner: Sounds like he's as great off the mic as he is indeed great on the mic.

Bill Burke: One of those guys you absolutely want to root for.

David Gardner: Love it. Bill, was there a moment where you switched on, was there an under-the-skies part and open, you saw blue-sky above or did this really come to you? It's not even just that one year at Harvard. You are a lifelong optimist, you are a fellow clicker of Internet things, you also, if you're like me, you're hardwired to experience the pain of loss?

Bill Burke: Yes.

David Gardner: At a roughly three times the rate that the joy of gain gives us as human beings, there's lots of reasons that you are contrarian, basically, by being an optimist today. Let's go back much earlier, your personal journey, were you always a happy kid?

Bill Burke: It's a funny question. I've thought a lot about it because because people people wonder and I was definitely a happy kid. I'm the youngest of four at a very privileged upbringing, two parent household. We were comfortable. My parents were very frugal. My parents, if there's anything they imparted on me, it was a sense of gratitude for everything. I think there is a very tight connection between gratitude and optimism. My mother in particular is very optimistic person.

If you said boy it's crummy weather today, she said, yeah, it's going to be nice tomorrow. She just was that kind of person. It's funny with my mom, my father since passed away, but my mom's still alive. We were moving her recently into assisted living, going through her stuff. I, for whatever reason, do not have a copy of my senior year book from high school, but she did. I want to go down memory lane and I've flipped to that section where we voted on most likely to succeed and the class clown, whenever, and then, cross my heart, Class Optimists, myself and a young woman named Moira. If you're out there, Moira, I have no memory of that.

David Gardner: Love it.

Bill Burke: Make sure there's two of us are there thumbs up. So that, I'll age myself, that was 40 years ago that I was voted class optimist. There's been something there for a while.

David Gardner: It really does so often still. I'm sure it's genetic in part. I always think of life is about half genetic and half behavioral, but the family which you grew up, Bill, and the schools that you went, the success that you had, anybody who at the end of high school is judged most likely to be successful, biggest optimist, all of those things, generally those are pretty predictive by the way, I subscribe to this notion that life is like high school, it sounds like it has been for you. I do want to mention as you described your mother and her reaction to the weather, I was reminded of a great chapter in the book Three Men And A Boat by Jerome K. Jerome, have you ever read this book though?

Bill Burke: I have not.

David Gardner: You don't need to, but it's very funny. It was written right around the year 1900. Basically, three men are taking a trip down the Thames. It's this rollicking kind of, who did they bump into novel. It's purely humorous. Jerome Jerome, that was his name his parents named the Jerome family named their son Jerome. Anyway. they come up applauded an old man. The question is, is it going to rain this afternoon because it's in the morning, they're out on Thames. The author goes into his theory about this, how to answer the question.

The answer is always no, it's going to be a beautiful afternoon. you already know this and your mother clearly knows this, but just to spell it out for our listeners, if you say it's going to rain, and then it does, people always shoot the messenger. You're like the doomsayer. People think about, you angry old man, he told us it's going to rain and is right and you don't like that person. If he says it's going to rain and he's wrong, then you're like, you remember that knucklehead that we encountered who told us a it's going to rain. Then, if you're right and it's beautiful, people love you. If you're wrong and it's beautiful, there's still like, that lovely old man had said it was going to be nice.

Bill Burke: You just describe what it's like to work at The Weather Channel.

David Gardner: I wasn't even connecting those things.

Bill Burke: You win, you're like a ref in a sporting event, nobody notices you until you're wrong. You never get credit for being right. People say it's the only only place you can make a living if you're wrong half the time. It's not true. When when you say it's going to be fair and 75 and then it is, no one says, wow, they really nailed it. They only pounce when you make a mistake.

David Gardner: It is so true.

Bill Burke: You just brought me back.

David Gardner: I understood. How long were you at The Weather Channel companies?

Bill Burke: I was there for two years. It was a formative experience because it is a fascinating business and much tougher than it looks, but they are much better than they get credit for so that's my 2 cents.

David Gardner: You ask, I'm happy, but what about other people? No, they're not happy. That feels like a misconception. Bill, what are some other common misconceptions around optimism. Martin Trigg's who wrote it on Twitter in advance of this podcast, knowing that you're joining with me, he said, would Bill describe a little bit the difference, discuss the difference between optimism and hope.

Bill Burke: Sure.

Bill Burke: Other misconceptions and you and I both also had Kevin Kelly on our show. One of the things I bristle at, and it's actually one of the reasons I did this work. The seed was planted in 2016. In November of 2016, Donald Trump was elected president. That was a great day for a lot of people. That was a very tough day for a lot of people. I remembered and I went back to check. There are at least two major editorials at the end of 2016, declared 2016 the worst year in American history. I love history. I thought to myself, really, young teen 63 was grim. Depression was pretty rough, and I thought we've lost perspective. I think one of the huge misperceptions is around history.

I mentioned Kevin Kelly because in his book, excellent advice I wish I'd had when I was younger as one of my favorite lines, which is roughly, if you only read the news, you'll think things have never been worse. But if you read history, you realize things have never been better. I don't think you can sum it up any better than that. I think if we have a healthier understanding of history, we'll get this better. The difference between hoping activism, it's funny because when I started this work, I did a deep-dive on this. You can get so many different opinions.

The one I like the best is optimist assumed that the odds are in their favor. To have hope, you usually have hope at times when the odds are probably not in your favor, but you're hanging on with hope. An example I like to give, and I pardon the sports analogies, not have to pardon them on this podcast, on this podcast, and this is a sports crowds, so OK, that's my Detroit Lions. They are one of four franchises have never appeared in the Super Bowl without Googling, if you're listeners can come up with the other three. Good for them. But they are one of the four, it came within 17 points halftime lead of making it this year.

But anyway, I am optimistic that someday they are going to make the Super Bowl, the Adria, my favorite overtime. Now, if they have the ball in its specific game with one second left and their own 20-yard line and they're down by end points. I have no optimism that they're going to win. In fact, that point, I don't even have hope. It's not going to happen. It's just mathematically can have. However, if my Detroit Tigers are down even 10 runs with instead of 1 second with three outs left.

I'm not overly optimistic, but I still have hope. I actually been thinking about this. I don't want to get too far afield here, but I think it's one of the reasons that baseball has this mythology around it. There's always hope in baseball, there's no clock. Good point. Even with a pitch clock, there's still, until that last out. There's always hope in almost every other sport. If you're basketball teams down by 12 with 3.3 seconds left, it's over. It's never over. You always have hope.

David Gardner: Part of what you're sharing Bill is that the clock father time, as has been said, the reins over most sports?

Bill Burke: Yes.

David Gardner: Baseball is not one of them though.

Bill Burke: Exactly.

David Gardner: Cricket is also not one of them, but most sports. Tennis is not one of them?

Bill Burke: Yeah.

David Gardner: Some of our favorite sports don't have a clock ticking away to zero. Always hope. Yadhu Majun, who's one of our fans and regular listeners of this show said, we know intuitively that optimism is good for us, but is there any scientific data? Do we have tangible proof? Yadhu went on. There's a lot of quantum theory behind some explanations about positivity and optimism. But whatever Bill's thoughts on that, the science of optimism.

Bill Burke: Yes, so I am the farthest thing from a scientists, but I've read a lot about it. They're actually as, I really don't know how they do this research, but I have in front of me out Harvard health report where they measure optimism. They show that optimism and cardiac patients, you're like 15% less likely to have cardiac issues if you maintain an optimistic outlook. Mental health, I think it goes without saying that maintaining a positive Alliqua on through of your mental health. There has been research done on survival.

I actually have a gentlemen I'm going to be interviewing this summer who was a five-and-a-half year POW in Vietnam. They have done post war PTSD studies. That those POWs who maintain the sense of optimism while they're captured and after they got out, had much longer rates of survival coming out. I've seen a counter, there's a story that admiral Stockdale I think told. This might be in the hope, optimism thing. He said that actually people who were overly optimistic is POWs who said to themselves, we'll surely will be out by Christmas.

Then another Christmas came and they said we'll surely will be out by next Christmas and other Christmas game. They actually cratered. He described that as unrealistic, maybe that's toxic optimism, I don't know. But they maintain, their fiber is always maintained hope. There is actually, there's very tangible, there's even a study that suggests that people that optimistic outlook lived 15-30% longer lives. Again, I don't know how you do that research, but I've seen it more than once. I think it's true. In some ways it's a selfish positioned to take, you're going to feel better, you're going to live longer, can be healthier if you're optimistic

David Gardner: Neither of us as a scientists, and we don't play them on television or podcasts. We do sometimes have them on our podcasts. You've done wonderfully with that Bill. Let me just break out for a quick second. Talks Blue-sky with you, and then we're going to go back to a science. But you've done 50 plus podcasts with you now. Resin company accepted firmly. If I wanted to listen to Blue-sky, one or two of them that would jump out to me. It'd be memorable or meaningful. I know you love all your children. Every week we love what we do. But if I'm a listener, Justin countering Bill Burke for the first time, what's the Blue-sky podcasts I should listen to on my next job?

Bill Burke: Well, I think on this subject we just talked about I interviewed a gentleman named Richard Davidson. He goes by Ritchie and he has a neuroscientist in the university of Wisconsin, a lovely human being. I actually found him on the 10% happier podcast. He is a guy who as a neuroscientist back I think in the '70s, early '80s. Most neuroscientist, he was studying all the things that go wrong with the brain. Depression, all these others, just things that go wrong. Well, they travels over the meets with the Dalai Lama and His Holiness says, "Why don't you treat people who have healthy brains? Why don't you help people learn from those who have healthy brains?" He turned his career around and he has since been a study or adjust that.

He embraces as of others on my show, this idea of brain plasticity. It is a huge learning. You mentioned earlier, David, that we're probably born certain amount of optimism or pessimism. Absolutely. But increasingly, just as you can go to the gym and make your biceps bigger, you can work on the plasticity of your brain and literally rewire your brain based on what you feed it. What she's saying, do you meditate, do you not? Our brains are way more plastic and changeable than we ever thought and it's really revolutionized that field of medicine. Richard Davidson, I think for me, would be that one.

David Gardner: Awesome. Richard Davidson. Blue-sky Podcasts, Google at fellow Fools, enjoy and learn. We're going to stick on science a little bit longer even though Ritchie isn't with us. But what I'm thinking Bill, is that while I can't speak to the brain itself and how we decide, and I know there's the fast part of our brain and slow part of your brain. I've read some of these things but I'm not studied up, but what I think I've figured out and you've helped, and let's work on this together a little bit, is, I think optimism has actually caused it.

It's actually determinative, like it is a creative force. It's not just a state of mind. It leads us, in some cases to take risks in a good way. I think not a crazy way hope, but when you believe something, it's more likely to happen, I think these things are fundamentally true. Therefore, while it's often referred to as a state of mind, I think the reason people you just quoted it, live longer, live happier. All of these things are because of that plasticity of our brain. I don't know if you've come across Shirzad Chamine and his work on positive intelligence.

Bill Burke: Yes.

David Gardner: This is also where I've encountered that and we've had him on this podcasts and I'm very persuaded that the brain is plastic, you're absolutely right. Therefore, if we believe, we're much more likely to get the thing that we believe in that if we don't believe.

Bill Burke: Totally 100% at the Lake General Colon Powell said, optimism as a force multiplier. He believed it in running his folks who reported him. General Eisenhower's said, "Pessimism never won a battle." Our mutual friend Bert Jacobs says, "I always challenged people. Show me the list of histories great pessimistic."

David Gardner: Life is Good, Bert Jacobs, co-founder and CEO.

Bill Burke: It's a great line and it's something I've worked on David, it's really been transformative for me. The nature of the work I'm doing by definition, I am looking for this positive story. I'm now living in New York City and you walk a lot in New York. It's an interesting thing. Rarely in cars, you're in the subway, you're surrounded by people all the time. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are buried in their phones as they walk. I've made a point, I don't have pods in, I am looking around.

David Gardner: You were the one guy without a phone and without AirPods?

Bill Burke: I am that guy David, and I had my head on a swivel and I am looking for goodness, and it's everywhere, whether it's the person who dropped their grocery bags in the middle of the street and five people jumped to help, whether it's the stranger who says, can I pet your dog? All these things. The police officers giving directions to lost tourists, it's everywhere. If you're armed with a hammer, there's a lot of just good nails out there that instead, if you're looking for the worst, you're going to find that too. But I think the vast majority of things you're going to see are positive.

David Gardner: Then therefore in my mind, and we've talked about this, I think we agree on this, it becomes causative.

Bill Burke: Totally. I am more pleasant to be around, you can ask my wife. I feel better. We haven't talked about politics for good reason, but I talked to somebody the other day, we allow ourselves to wallow in some of this negativity too. Its like, we touched the burning stove and we leave our hand there.

I was talking to a friend, I won't name the politician, but he's like, did you hear what candidate X said? Can you believe what he said? I said, what candidate X say? Said, is that going to change your behavior in November? Said, what do you mean? Is it going to change who you voted for? No, I would never vote for him. Why are you letting him now ruin your day? Why are you wallowing in that? You know who you're voting for, you're never going to change your mind, don't wallow in the ridiculousness of this person you don't like. It's a real trap and we're allowing it to happen to ourselves in my opinion.

David Gardner: It's a reminder that who we surround ourselves with is also going to be so determinative, so causative in our life. It sounds like your wife is increasingly lucky to have married you and you keep becoming a better and better person to be around, Bill. That's why I'm glad I'm hanging out with you this week. This is what I believe, fight me, but I really do think, and we've talked about this many times before on Rule Breaker Investing, keeping good company makes a huge difference. We're all influencing each other actually out to a third concentric circle that we can't even see and it matters so deeply. Even if you can't, I guess dear listener, be an optimist, by the way, nobody should force it, but even if you can't, hang out with them.

Bill Burke: Totally. Think about it. You're invited to a dinner party and there's assigned seating. Who do you want to sit next to you for the next hour? You want to seat next to someone who's going to complain about candidate X for the next hour or do you want to sit next to Eeyore or I don't know, Pooh or Piglet, Tinker might get on your nerves after hour.

Bill Burke: But do you know what I mean? It just we feed off the energy of other people. There are some people who i think enjoy wallowing in it, but I think there are few and far between. It really is who you want to surround yourselves by.

David Gardner: Speaking of surrounding ourselves with good company and learning, Bill, you earlier spoke to that habit you have a walking around New York City. By the way, is New York City an optimistic place?

Bill Burke: I think it's way more optimistic than people realize. You can make it here, you can make it any. I do think, you know what part of it is? New York continues to be a city of immigrants. I will fall on my sword and say that immigrants are in many ways the ultimate optimists.

David Gardner: Love that.

Bill Burke: Think about where they're coming from, where they're going to. I was in the car the other day, an Uber driver, and I always say, so where are you from originally? He said, ''Korea.'' I said, ''My father fought in the Korean War.'' He said, ''What a valorous thing to do.'' He said, ''This country is incredible. I love this, this is the best country in the world.'' I thought to myself, when was the last time you heard a native-born American, now we can argue whether or not it's the greatest country in the world, fine, but boy, the positive energy coming off this guy driving an Uber from Korea was incredible. I think that has a lot to do with it in a place like New York.

David Gardner: A superlative point about immigration and immigrants. I really appreciate that. Thank you, Bill. Be practical with us, you've already done this, but be a little bit more practical with us. Tips, strategies for cultivating optimism in my daily life. I now know that I can take my head out of my phone and maybe not have my AirPods on and look around and look for good stuff. Are their daily things that you do or people you've interviewed strategies?

Bill Burke: Yes. Gratitude is one, and there are books written about gratitude. You can do a gratitude journal, you can do these other things. Richard Davidson, back to him. He challenges people, he said do this for a week, pick one meal a day, and before you eat, look at your plate and be grateful for how that food got to your plate. Whether that was the checkout person at Whole Foods or the farmer who raised the chicken, or the truck driver who drove the corn here from Iowa, all of those.

Take your 2-3 minutes, he said, ''I guarantee you buy a week you're going to feel better about life if you simply do that very simple thing.'' On phones, to me, it's not just putting down the phone. It's also, who are you following? Why are you following them? Fleeing up your feeds, I made a conscious effort to do that. You vote with your likes and just as the algorithms can spin you down into doom, they can spin you the other way as well. I've seen it and it's a real thing, and so I encourage people. I also am not a big fan of news alerts. Rarely is a news alert good news, it's usually awful news, and nine times out of 10, it's nothing you can do anything about. There's been this tragedy across the world and it's a terrible thing and it's sad, I don't need to know about it right now.

David Gardner: Such a good point.

Bill Burke: Not anything I can do about it. Those I think are the basic ones. Then, every once in a while my wife and I will sit down, we'll start watching a movie, it's like, this isn't very pleasant. There's other things we could be watching. Life's short. I just think a lot of what you put into your brain is we're the gatekeepers. We can blame [Meta's] Facebook and Instagram, those folks, and I have some questions about their business practices, but a lot of it's on us. These are unforced errors, to use and other sports term.

David Gardner: I'm not asking you to be Mr. Optimistic all the time. I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else. I know any optimist, I hope is also a realist, otherwise, it's pie in the sky, w et behind the ears. Happy-go-lucky. We might talk about that a little bit later, but we're about to ask you for a streaming recommendation. We're going to go to the, what's the show we should be watching. You don't have to say the one that's the most optimistic.

Bill Burke: Everyone is going to say Ted Lasso, so I'm not going to say that.

David Gardner: Don't say that. What are you going to say though Bill? It doesn't even have to be to help my optimism. Just what's a good show?

Bill Burke: Well, this is really hokey, but it's on the PBS app, it's free. All Creatures Great and Small.

David Gardner: Fantastic.

Bill Burke: Did you ever read those books?

David Gardner: I read the first one, my wife read all of them.

Bill Burke: They're fantastic. The show is delightful. It's just a total getaway, you feel great. Love it. I love documentaries, I'm about to watch the Steve Martin documentary, I've heard great things about Paul Simon. I'm a huge fan of making of's behind the scenes. If you show me how someone created something incredible, and it's gone viral. Watching Paul McCartney, Get Back in real-time from the Beatles documentary. If you haven't seen it, Google Paul McCartney writing Get Back. He's just jamming around his guitar and then all of a sudden Ringo starts playing the drums. All of a sudden he writes, Get Back before your eyes is Peter Kackson.

David Gardner: I hadn't seen that.

Bill Burke: Drop everything. Those I love. I think the creative process makes me optimistic. When I want to feel better about my fellow humans I watch some great piece of art, some music, if you've seen Hamilton and that doesn't make you feel better about the human species, then I think there's something wrong.

David Gardner: First of all, thank you for every one of those, love it. You were reminding me that I'm talking to a media executive. Most of Bill Burke's life he was running media companies and tightly partnered with Ted Turner. Is Ted Turner an optimist?

Bill Burke: Oh my gosh, absolutely.

Bill Burke: Right there with immigrants, entrepreneurs. You cannot be an entrepreneur unless you're an optimist. Think about it. You think you have this idea that's going to make the world better? That's by definition you're an optimist, so absolutely. I was lucky I worked for him and then in this crazy set of circumstances, he asked me to be as ghostwriters, so I'd wrote his autobiography. Not only did I get to see them in action as my boss's boss and this incredible entrepreneur, but then getting up close and personal, I've done yoga with Ted and let's just say his shorts didn't fit as well as they should and I'm going to leave it right there.

He is the ultimate optimists. When things were down, one of the things I learned from Ted was, not only he's a great winner, he was an incredible loser. If you play the game enough, you're going to lose a lot. He owned the Atlanta braves when they were losing 100 games a year. But he stayed at it, and one of his lines was, I'm not losing, I'm just learning how to win. When he was erase, people forget he was the world's greatest ocean racer. He was terrible when he started. When he was a kid, they call him turnover Ted, Ted Turner's cap sizing all the time. But he said I'm not losing, I'm just learning how to win.

David Gardner: Well, you just mentioned entrepreneurs. Let's, stick with that for a little while, Bill Burke. Leadership, organizations, discuss the role of optimism in leadership and its impact on the culture of the organization.

Bill Burke: I think it's right there at the very top of attributes that leaders need to have as optimism, I think integrity is right there and maybe there's a connection between those two. Was it Warren Buffett says energy, intelligence and integrity. Integrity is the most important because it out at the other two can kill you. I think in leadership roles and I've read about others, there's incredible story about Eisenhower, what he's addressing the troops at D day. There he knows best-case, this is going to be a terrible day, and a lot of these guys aren't going to make it. But if they see an him any doubt, any pessimism than the mission can't be fulfilled. You said before you have to be realistic, but you'd have to paint an optimistic, exciting future. As a leader, you're trying to lead people into our future, and that has to be an optimistic future.

David Gardner: Especially when you remember that that's going to be causative.

Bill Burke: Totally. A man on the moon by the end of the century talk about the minute that was set. I was like, whoa. And it was a B Agora, he was measurable, it was all those things. Again back to Bert Jacobs, show me the list of history's great person, who wants to follow a great person?

David Gardner: Again, a lot of people will know Barker. For those who don't, he's the founder of Life Is Good, that brand, t-shirts, bumper stickers, they're selling optimism.

Bill Burke: He's putting an ads to it. We corresponded the other day and he's sending me a t-shirt. He's got a new one and what I'm getting has an alligator and it says, gather the optimist, eat the pessimists. Just know we need to give out, give us a little bit more of an edge. I will be wearing that proud.

David Gardner: Walking around the streets of New York, I would like to see the video.

Bill Burke: Eat the pessimists.

David Gardner: We are now getting to know Bill Burke and I have had the pleasure of knowing Bill. Not every year, but for 20 plus years, and I'm just so glad to be reconnecting in this powerful way for me really since you started the institute a couple of years ago. It just means so much to me, Bill, your work and I've enjoyed the blue-sky podcasts. Let's keep talking. Ted Turner, there are other leaders, other companies that you can think of that are examples for us of embodying optimism effectively. Who else? Let's stick with CEOs or business leaders, or brands or companies that jump out to you.

Bill Burke: Well, with Ted Turner and I'll have immediate bias. I mean, Walt Disney. I mean, every which way that demand Walt Disney embodied that. And when you think about the creativity it took to envision Disneyland and then Disneyworld and literally creating new worlds, new environments. The first feature animated films, Snow White, meaning credible. There were hiccups after he passed away and there was lot of standing around and what would Walt do? That's a challenge where the figurehead entrepreneur like that. But I think there are so many tailwinds behind whoever is running that company that were started way back in the DNA of a guy like Walt Disney. He's one that comes to mind.

David Gardner: Bill, are you keeping up with Disney right now and it's a proxy war, do you have any dog in this fight?

Bill Burke: I do not. I'm still an investor, a holder.

David Gardner: I am too and if you're like me, you're getting spam calls, you're getting people who say you need to vote this or that way, you're getting texts.

Bill Burke: Yeah. I stay out of that, then life's too short for me to get too involved. I will tell you. The media business that I worked in, I barely recognize the industry now, it has changed so profoundly. It is so hard to run these companies now, talking to a friend the other day about the traditional box office business and how that's changed, and he was telling me that the business deal behind the Roadhouse movie that Amazon has put out. I know you're an Amazon guy. Amazon is, I hear the story, they said we want to make Roadhouse. Director says I want it in theaters. Director still have this thing, it's got to be in theaters.

David Gardner: Sell the movie.

Bill Burke: It's got to be theaters. Well, we want the right to just go straight to streaming while I wanted to theaters. He said, here's the deal. The movie has a $60 million budget if we put it in theaters, has an $80 million budget, if you'd give us the freedom to go straight to streaming. Director said, I'll go with the higher budget. They went straight to streaming. Now, I don't know how you do the math to decide that that movie is worth $80 million to Amazon, straight to streaming. You can quantify it in theaters. But I'm sure a quick math if you don't have to add a lot of Prime subscribers with a tent pole movie to make. I don't know, I'm fascinated by that math, but it's an industry I barely recognize anymore. But I still love it, but it's changed an awful lot.

David Gardner: If we're building Bill Burke, Mount Rushmore of optimist in business, Ted Turner is obviously there, and I think even though you have a close personal association, you help him write his book, I still think he stands large enough, he looms large that he deserves a spot regardless of your relationship with them. While Disney, I get you. Do you want to pin to other people up there?

Bill Burke: That's a good one. Where on the spot, I think Sam Walton, it's hard not to put him up there. We can get into discussions about personalities and lifestyles and everything else, but what Jeff Bezos has created, he's a huge optimist. One business category after another, I just told the box office store. If you told me 10 years ago, we'd be talking about Amazon's theatrical strategy, come on. I was the guy, I love books. I first heard about Amazon because a guy on a bus at an Amazon bookmark, paper bookmark. I saw what's Amazon? It's the world's largest online bookstore. Cool. I'll buy books from Amazon, but I'll never buy anything else from it, despite books. Fast forward, I'm buying everything from Amazon now but books. I just go into my local bookstore and I do use my kindle. Unbelievable what they've created.

David Gardner: Very well done. Bill, let's let's go to the dark side briefly. There are people listening who are saying, I've heard this stuff before, optimist, and I'm not saying this person, by the way, is a pessimism, we're creating a straw man with this question. Bill, what are three common criticisms, challenges leveled at someone like you from people who feel like they've seen this before, you just promoting optimism, but that's not the way the world works. Three common criticisms, I want you to take them down.

Bill Burke: Let's go. The first one is actually personal. It's like coarser an optimist. You grew up with privilege, you're living well, you've got it made and I'm very self conscious about that. I will say I've had challenges that I don't publicize. It hasn't always been easy, by dad was a really tough. But I get that. Of course, it's easy for you to say. That's one. Another is, it's pie in the sky, that's passive.

Bill Burke: I actually don't like is the glass half-full, half-empty, I don't think that's a measure of optimism. That's some weird positivity thing. I think an optimist says, yeah, it's half-full. I'm going to chug it, I'm going to go fill it up and have another. That's a no to me.

David Gardner: As somebody holding literally a glass of Kombucha and my hand as we talk?

Bill Burke: Yeah.

David Gardner: I noticed it's actually half, I'm not going to say it's half.

Bill Burke: Others say it's full, it's just half liquid, half oxygen and air.

David Gardner: Good point.

Bill Burke: But that's one that is just you're sitting that optimist surpassed passive. Then I guess the third is that optimists are naive. It's like wake up Bill, look around you. The world is on fire. We have never been more divided. We have never been, and with that I just tried to counter with historical facts and the Steven Pinker's presentations.

David Gardner: Yeah.

Bill Burke: The other, though, I will say, and I've had my moments. There are people right now who are in dire, awful situations with their own health, with the health of the mothers, with in war torn zones. I'm very sympathetic to that. Obviously, there are people in parts of the world who are struggling terribly. I bet that and that is a very fair criticism. When you look at numbers on a whole, absolutely the world is better today than it's ever been.

David Gardner: I really appreciate your point about looking at newspapers versus looking at history that you made earlier. Another listener question coming in this week from Craig Hawkins at Craig's brain on Twitter. I'd love to hear Bill comment about being optimistic in difficult situations. Bill, you just shared examples. Let's take up protracted illness or mental health challenge, broken relationship, that thing. How do you be optimistic in those situations?

Bill Burke: Yeah, it's really tough and I'll get personal here. I lost a niece to cancer. She was 29 years old, very close to me. My sister's oldest, just an incredible human being. It was leukemia, it was two bone marrow transplants and after the second one, back to the industry and hope and optimism, the odd starts spinning against you and it's more hope frankly than optimism. It was brutal and it was very hard to stay positive and she helped a lot because she was one of those people who never say how you doing any and she'd say, how are you, uncle Bill? No self-pity. But it was brutal.

It was very hard. One thing I would say and I had a guest on an episode was just editing is about to come out. He said, time is a great medicine. I was at the depths after she passed away, it was late 2019. But then slowly by slowly when you get to the other side, at least in my case, things change. I'm so much more empathetic. I'm so much more sympathetic to people going through cancer. I used to watch the Jimmy Fund Telethon during the red Sox games say, enough already. Can we get back to the game? Now, it's a game changer for me. I'm a better person. I wish that didn't happen.

I wish Andy was still with us. I'm a better person today than I was before that happened. That much easier for me to say than for my sister and her husband, but that's an example, but it was really hard. Again, there was probably a shift to more hope than optimism as the odd started to turn, but it's a really tough thing. But to remember that it's try expression, but this too shall pass, time is great medicine. What's the alternative? When it gets that bad, if you don't have some alternatives, if you don't have hope, how would you even get out it? To me, it's one of the few things that can motivate you when things are at their worst?

David Gardner: Well, Bill, I had a few different points I've mentioned some listener questions are tweeting friends and we have many of them. I enjoy following you Bill on Twitter. Now this is a little hard for me. I think you're @waburke. Is it 2706?

Bill Burke: A206.

David Gardner: A206.

Bill Burke: Kids are like when they're first of all, they like you can't your name on there. You got my name is William Andrew Berg, so that'd be better. But yes, that is it.

David Gardner: Matt not opt institute works. Well, we have a lot of Twitter fans and friends and a few of them wrote in, and I'm going to share a question from Jason Moore and I like this one a lot. Jason actually shared a few. We might go into a couple of these. One of them is, what role does personal responsibility play in fostering optimism?

Bill Burke: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think it plays a big role and I think it plays a role in, again, how we live our lives day to day. What are we attracted to? What do we read? What do we put on our brain? What do we follow online? How much time we spending on our phone, how much time are we reading history versus reading the news?

David Gardner: Yeah, these are all choices.

Bill Burke: They're all choices. David, one of the things that happened after not that many episodes yours included, I started seeing threads and connections between people I interviewed. One of them was they all, in some ways describe themselves as lifelong learners. I felt, what does that have to do with optimism, then recently I'd Kelly Corrigan on the show is great writers. She's a host on PBS and great podcast.

I said that to her, she goes, what's an optimistic position to take? There's always more to learn, there's always more to know, there's always more to read. That's inherently optimistic. In terms of our personal behavior, you're going to pop yourself in front of the TV and watch people scream at each other on the news shows. You're going to read a book about the challenges that Irish immigrants had coming into the United States. I just finished a great book called Plentiful Country. It's about the potato famine and Irish immigration in New York. You think we have a tough now?

David Gardner: Yeah, just the boat ride.

Bill Burke: Yeah, such a good point. We need to high reminded, how you spend your days is how you spend your life. Love it.

David Gardner: One more Jason Moore question @jimminyjilickrzjason, what key factors contribute to a flourishing society? How do we amplify those things and promote growth and well-being? This is a big question.

Bill Burke: That's a big question. Yeah.

David Gardner: I didn't prepare you for this one. I don't send my questions ahead of time to my guest, I'm not quite that one.

Bill Burke: What was the handle?

David Gardner: @JimminyJilickrz, so one of the better Twitter handles, so jealous.

Bill Burke: That's a good one. I think we unfortunately have gotten ourselves into a situation where society thrives on tearing each other down. Who can yell the loudest, who can have the weirdiest cut down, put down, insult, counsel, all that stuff. And it's really unhealthy and societies aren't going to flourish when we just assume the worst.

I was listening to Brian Stevenson recently as a personal hero of mine, wrote Just Mercy, the incredible attorney. He said, "We're in a society where we reward people for the weird put down." He says, we got to get past that, we're not going to flourish as a society. I agree that 100% and the ultimate playground for that is the Internet. People hide safely in their basements and hurdle insult to others. It's really not healthy. I think that's a big one. You've got to try to pull ourselves out. Good golf.

David Gardner: Villas play buy-seller-hold. You generously agreed to play my game with big thank you.

Bill Burke: Biggest mistake ever make.

David Gardner: This will only hurt a little while.

Bill Burke: Let's do this.

David Gardner: You know ahead of time, you don't know what's coming. These are not stocks. But if they were, if they were stocks, would you be buying, selling, or holding? A few sentences a thought or two as to why. You're ready?

Bill Burke: Yes.

David Gardner: Let's kick it off with the meteorologists you mentioned them earlier. Buy, seller, hold meteorologists.

Bill Burke: Buy.

David Gardner: Why?

Bill Burke: Technology continues to improve and advanced, AI as being brought to weather forecasting. Weather forecasting is so much better than it's ever been. It's so much better than people give them credit for. Buy, buy, buy

David Gardner: I will. I liked that point. I didn't really think about, is AI eventually going to enable us to know what the weather will be at that zipcode at that hour in future?

Bill Burke: Well, they come pretty darn close now. Get on whether.com and do your zipcode. I'm telling you, no one says, gee, they really nailed that was 74 and fair.

David Gardner: It's so true.

Bill Burke: It was going to rain at three o'clock and started ran at 3:01. That's incredible.

David Gardner: I agree. It reminds me, you know this about me I think Bill, but I'm a fanatical gamer and I have a lot of, I'm sitting in a room right now with hundreds of tabletop board games around me and that's why I love working in this room and I surround myself with games. What I've noticed is, if there's a bad shuffle of a deck of cards, you got a comment. Oh yeah, who's shuffled? It's me usually, I shuffled. They never say anything the other 99 times out of like great shuffle.

Bill Burke: Never.

David Gardner: Great shuffle. What shuffler you are.

Bill Burke: Ramps in a football game.

David Gardner: It's not fair. Your meteorologists, card shufflers, ramps into football games, speaking of which lets go. Next, buy, seller, hold Bill. Football, American football, buy, seller, hold?

Bill Burke: By with a caveat to say my caveat, and there's literature on this now, breaking news. I think that allowing gambling deep into professional sports, including minor league baseball, could have some very negative ramification and we're already starting to see some. The law is a little fuzzy, like what is insider trading and gambling. If I moved in on the clubhouse attendant and he tells me that the guy had did a little extra rehab yesterday, and I'm not sure he's going to start on Tuesday night, like a bet on the other team. I think they they may be asking for more trouble than the upside is worth

David Gardner: You know, it was always an industry even though it wasn't legal, and Iowa's personally thought it should be legal. I've placed bets on sport games just with friends since I was a kid, and I think it's great to speculate. It's not that different from the about the stock market and buying a stock and trying to see the future. Except there is a very important difference, and that is, well, there are several but one of the ones I want to focus on is that sports betting is zero-sum.

Someone's going to win and the other guy loses, and the house gets it's cut, and so the expected return is and always will be negative when you bet on sports. I know I did it some myself just purely for fun, I would never steak anything meaningful. The stock market has a tailwind of eight to 10 percent plus annualized. It makes absolutely no sense for Americans and not just sports, but let's just go to casinos. The one industry I've never recommended a stock in or from is the so-called gaming industry.

Even though I'm a gamer myself, I mean the gambling industry, what it calls itself. It calls itself the gaming industry. I don't want to recommend businesses that basically just make money by taking your money. It's amazing to think that 66.5 billion dollars, I saw this headline the other day Bill was lost by Americans to casinos last year, 66.5 billion dollars. I mean, these are businesses, if you really think about it, they're making it fun and attractive and they give you free stuff, and they're welcoming you into their house literally to take your money.

Bill Burke: Yet, you know, slot machines. I know a guy who used to work for a company that made slot machines and different states, as I recall the story have different margins. Essentially that the house can take payouts, dial on the slot machine, three percent up dialed down to two percent because we're in this state, and they are guaranteed that margin, what a business? But yeah, you're signing up to lose when you do. I have concerns about that somehow that we don't talk about concussions at much anymore about football. But that's one too, I think is a long-term challenge for that sport.

David Gardner: An extra minute for football fans, many listening or not. But did you see how they've changed the kickoff for next year?

Bill Burke: I read something about it and I didn't saw it. I don't understand it. It's going to be weird. For anybody like you, would be somewhere around the 60 who's watched football all their life, this is a totally different ballgame with.

David Gardner: Run it live before they collide.

Bill Burke: Because they're trying. The worst injuries happened at high-speeds with people running long distances and ramming into each other, so it's going to be different. Check it and we'll see.

David Gardner: One more for you, Bill buy-seller hold the phrase, we are so divided as a nation.

Bill Burke: Oh, today, now sell, sell.

David Gardner: But, but I hope that it's so popular. Again, if this stock Bill, I mean, you're making money. This, everyone's saying this.

Bill Burke: We have never been more divided as a country. How about the civil war when we killed each other by the tens of thousands? Yeah, you have to be kidding me. When the gaining of Sumner, my favorite story, when a guy in the house of representatives was aimed by a southerner. This guy was anti slavery, and this guy came in and Kingdom almost killed them and not only was it essentially, he was celebrated by his fellow pro-slavery.

I mean, listen, I am very worried about this upcoming election and how, what the aftermath might be. January 6 for me as, America was a very sad day watching what happened. But we have been so much more divided in the past. It's not even close and so I just let's sell that. Let's, let's bear that, and let's, let's start saying this is when the pendulum turns were coming back together, and let's get our act together and reclaim this country.

David Gardner: Thank you for that Bill Burke, Jonathan and I, wrote a book called The Coddling of the American Mind. Sometimes I think we coddle ourselves. I mean, that was more about how we're raising our kids and what universities are doing a really important subject today. But I mean, a lot of us are just. That's the story we tell ourselves in our heads.

Bill Burke: There is no context.

David Gardner: Here's my question then, let's just go one step deeper on this Bill because I'm actually troubled by this. I am an optimist and I don't let things trouble me, but I'm troubled by this. It is so common these days. I go to church on Sundays, we pray for this. It is so common to say we're so divided as a nation. How do we pull ourselves back out at like, how do you turn the tide of people saying that? Because the more people say it, the more other people think, well, that's obviously the case. This is kind of like, I'm happy but no one else is happy clearly.

Bill Burke: I interviewed a guy, Dan Riker, and he works for Stanford University and climate change. He started this program called uncommon dialogues where they get people together around a table who are diametrically opposed on an issue, so he's dealing with the environment. You've got environmentalist, you've got people who want green energy, and then you've got the fossil fuel people. I'm making this up, but that's probably. Lagging around a table. The exercise is, let's start listing all the things we agree, and you start making that list, and it's really long.

By the time you get to the stuff you don't agree on, it's not that long list. These are important issues, but everything changes when you start. You get someone who's going to vote for this candidate for president, and this person who vote for this. Do you care about the future of your children? You want your kids to be healthy for them to have good schools? You go through this list and it's long. You might fight over. How do you find good schools? You always are charter schools with.

But we believe so many of the same things you get in these fringe issues. Unfortunately, I think about the debates, these fringe issues of what bathrooms are kids going to use in schools? Maybe there's an important issue. Are they the biggest issues of the day? They are not, I think that establishing this huge amount of common ground of four, we home in on the differences. I think that would go a really long.

David Gardner: Thank you, Bill Burke, any final thoughts? Do you have a key takeaway for your fellow Rule Breakers that you're joining in with this week? What do we want to be left to? Do you have a call to action?

Bill Burke: My call to action, I would say comes from Chris Anderson, who was a curator of TED for many years. The TED Talks organization got to book called infectious generosity, highly recommended. What he said to me is like Bill, I am a technique file. I love technology, I love the internet and it breaks my heart to see how we brought it down to this place. It's time for us to reclaim the internet. Let's reclaim for goodness, let spread generosity.

Let's not spread division, let's bring each other together, and it's a great call. I said to him offline afterwards, they said, "Boy, Chris, I'd love to work with you on this. Maybe the optimism Institute could be the optimism Alliance and I'll help Colby together." He's British and very smart and he said, "I don't hate that idea." I think there's a possibility that we might get together on this, but that would be a reclaim the internet. Let's stop being passive about this and thinking, well was me and he's evil social media companies are just drawing my life. Let's leave for it, take some action and reclaim the internet for good.

David Gardner: I love it. Bill Burke, thank you so much for joining with us for Rule Breaker Investing this week. This podcast is the Blue Sky podcast. I mentioned that line that he leads off with earlier, but I'll say it again. There's always blues, actually, would you say it, Bill? Sure. Your lines.

Bill Burke: Let's remember that there is always blue-sky above. Sometimes you just have to get your head above the clouds to see it.

David Gardner: You can hear Bill every week on his Blue Sky podcast. I am inspired to help reclaim the internet. I think, in a sense, Bill, you won the internet on this hour of this podcast this week. Keep up the great work. Thank you, friend.

Bill Burke: Same dear David. Thanks so much.