Dave Gonzales is a co-author of MCU: The Reign of Marvel Studios and a guest on this episode of Motley Fool Money. He joins Motley Fool host Ricky Mulvey for a conversation on what the latest Deadpool movie means for the state of Disney's Marvel Cinematic Universe.
They also discuss:
- Ike Perlmutter's attempt to oust Bob Iger.
- Bubbles in comics, movies, and franchises.
- Takeaways from Deadpool & Wolverine's opening weekend.
Heads up: At 18:05, we've got Deadpool & Wolverine spoilers! If you haven't seen the movie yet and want to, save this part of the podcast for once you're back from the theater.
To catch full episodes of all The Motley Fool's free podcasts, check out our podcast center. To get started investing, check out our quick-start guide to investing in stocks. A full transcript follows the video.
This video was recorded on August 04, 2024.
Dave Gonzales: Because Disney is an IP company, because at some point, when Bob Iger was the CEO, he was like, creating is so much more difficult than buying and infusing that into your brand. They need to figure out a way to tell better stories. They need to reorient the story place. I think that's something that they're slowly working their way back to because before, they were just like, What's the spectacle? You want to see How many avengers can we put in one movie? You'll show up for that, and now that people won't show up for that, hopefully they go back to the story. Cause I think if you're chasing a spectacle movie, you're making a theme park. That's not how drama should work.
Mary Long: I'm Mary Long, and that's Dave Gonzales. He quite literally wrote the book on the Marvel Cinematic Universe. My colleague Ricky Mulvey, caught up with Gonzales live in Denver, to debrief on what the latest Deadpool movie means for Marvel's past and for its future. They also discuss [inaudible] exit from Disney, the state of visual effects houses, and what boom-bust cycles look like in comics and in movies.
Ricky Mulvey: We'll get to the business stuff in a second. But first off, it's a big superhero movie this summer. We'll talk spoilers later. We're going to go deep, maybe hopefully. But what's your spoiler free review of Deadpool and Wolverine? Are we out of the post Endgame darkness here?
Dave Gonzales: I definitely think so. I think that the post Endgame darkness was a little exaggerated, but I do think that we've rebounded from Secret Invasion and The Marvels, which I think is going to be seen at least if everything keeps going OK, is going to be seen, it's like the low point of the Marvel cinematic universe. Just because Secret Invasion wasn't very good, and The Marvels didn't make that much money.
Ricky Mulvey: This is a movie that rewards viewers who have done their homework, but also unabashedly makes fun of them. I wonder if that's going to change, within the Marvel Universe anytime soon as they try to draw new viewers. But also, this movie just made more than $400 million in a weekend, maybe it's not worth concern trolling.
Dave Gonzales: We've crossed the 30 billion for Marvel in general in profits. Everything's going according to plan here with Deadpool and Wolverine. I think this is something that's very specifically Deadpool was tailor made to do, and I was thrilled to see what they were going to do with Deadpool when 20th Century Fox was bought by Disney. This is a best case scenario. I enjoyed the previous Deadpool movies for how irreverent they were and for how much they were able to make fun of the cannon. Then when Marvel Studios tried to do their own fourth while breaking character with She Hulk, they did it in a way that I thought was really funny, but it wasn't irreverent. It was very reverent. It was Kevin Feige, the computer, X Men's on its way. The most we could let you do is assume that Jennifer Walters had sex with Matt Murdoch. But Deadpool goes far beyond that. It gets its R rating for language within, I think the first 90 seconds. I timed it the second time I saw it. That's the second F bomb, that'll do it to you. Then just in case that wasn't enough, the title sequence is incredibly violent. Does it want you to do your homework? Yes. Is it also just a ride? It's a road trip movie with action sequences every, like, 15 minutes. I think that works if you're just in it for the ride and the jokes, and it's a hot summer out there and you need to get into the theaters. I'd say go for it. I think it's more rewarding the more you invest in it, but that doesn't mean it's not a good time at the movies for people over 18.
Ricky Mulvey: I want to check in on the MCU. But I think it works best as a comedy in it's worst when it's a dog show. But let's talk about the MCU because we also had Comic Con this past weekend with some pretty significant announcements, which can be, I would say, signs of optimism or almost signs of cynicism about this business, depending on your vibe. But Robert Downey Jr is back in the Marvel Universe after dying in Endgame, he is Dr. Doom. We're getting a big Avengers movie again from the Russo Brothers. We're getting two of them. Deadpool just had the biggest R rated opening. Fantastic Four is also back. You wrote the book on the MCU, you co wrote the book on the MCU. What is the state of it now?
Dave Gonzales: They are "we're so back". There's a funny tweet I saw. It was one of those baseball hats that has a Velcro patch on the front and just two patches. It says, MCU so over, MCU so back, and you can just switch out the patches, so we're back. But the weird thing about that Comic Con panel is watching it unfold and not knowing anything super new about Marvel since earlier this year, so just trying to figure out back. The last time I talked to my sources to add some new stuff to the paper rack which is coming out this fall for MCU-rated Marvel Studios. Jonathan Matris, the verdict sill hadn't come in yet. They had all these plans, but nobody had said go on what was going to happen. The interesting thing about their Comic Con presentation is they showed three movies. All three of those movies are pretty weird for what Marvel does. They're going to make up President Hulk with Harrison Ford, and that's incredibly weird. Apparently, the footage showed him making a speech in front of the White House and turning into the Hulk, which is pretty amazing. They have Thunderbolts asterisk, which I'm convinced is called something like Dark Avengers or something, but, like, that's Marvel suicide squads. That's a little off center for them. Then they showed off Fantastic Four, which is going to take place in an alternate 1960s, New York, and is basically looks like Disney's Tomorrowland, but pasted over the whole city of Manhattan. Then ends with a huge Calactus Ts, and not Calactus, the storm cloud, like in the previous 20 century Fox Fantastic Four, but the full giant human galactis peering into a window. Then they had the fantastic car fly over the audience. These are three things that are super weird. They're not multiversal directly on their surface, so they are hearing this. Then all of a sudden, they're like, well, wait a second. If you're excited about this, you're going to love all the old hits because we broke the break class in case of emergency apparently last December. Here's Robert Downey Jr, here's the Russo Brothers. Avengers 5, King Dynasty. What? What was that? No, it's Doomsday. It's always been Doomsday. Don't worry about it. All those things, they felt like fear flop sweat to me. The last 10 minutes of the panel, I was ready to call it a fantastic year for Marvel, the flying car year in Hall H, great time. But then they did the Robert Downey Jr stuff, and it's going to overshadow. It feels so weird because the Comic Con audience is the audience. They've seen all the Marvel movies. They've read the comics, where Tony Stark and/or Doom, switch places. Those are the people that you have to explain it to. This feel like an announcement for the back of the house, for the people who are 40, but my mom even will be like, Robert Downey Jr is in Avengers again. Let's go out and see it. I'm like, you don't need to do that, my man. The MCU is still going pretty strong. Also other people can play Dr. Doom. It's a big character.
Dave Gonzales: I think we will definitely see other people play Dr. Doom.
Ricky Mulvey: We were talking about this before we started recording, but there was one of the bosses of the Marvel Cinematic Universe was a guy named Ikea Perlmutter. We know Kevin Feige is the creative controller of it. But Ikea Perlmutter, who brought Marvel back out of bankruptcy through, it would be the comic books in the '90s in the 2000s. Now he's gone. He was aligned with Nelson Peltz. He wanted Bob Iger out of his role. He didn't get what he wanted. Now Perlmutter is gone. This might seem like a small thing to an outside observer, but what does it mean for the MCU now that Ikea Perlmutter is out of the picture?
Dave Gonzales: It means that Kevin Feige is now king of Marvel, and nobody can challenge him even if they wanted to. My understanding of how the situation worked, and we covered some of this in this book, but then obviously, some of it's been new is Perlmutter was told that Disney wasn't going to mess with Marvel when the original sale went down. He and Iger had dinner with their wives at a Steakhouse, and they talked about how this is going to be like acquiring Pixar from Steve Jobs. Let Pixar, be Pixar. They're going to like, etc Marvel be Marvel. Then after a couple of years of that, somebody snitched to Bob Iger that Isaac Perlmutter and Marvel entertainment weren't letting things like Captain Marvel or Black Panther happen very specifically around the thought of Avengers Civil War. I'm sorry, Captain America Civil War. They were like, Who wants to see heroes fight each other? The Russo Brothers were like, everybody. Everybody wants to see this. Someone at Marvel Studios, when the Russo Brothers realized that they were going to try to note Civil War out of existence, were like, it's going to be either the Russo Brothers or the studio has to let up on these notes. Someone told Iger, who then basically told Perlmutter to step out of the way and pushed him back and gave Kevin Feige control over Marvel Studios, Marvel Television, Marvel Comics, even, so that Perlmutter had interest in it and was still one of the biggest Disney shareholders because of the deal to sell Marvel, but he was losing control over Marvel, actually. Isaac Perlmutter is a very weird man, and I do not want to piss him off because he's got a very interesting past, but is very profit focused. When Disney's pandemic hits, started rolling over, and everybody was mad at Bob Chapek, who was CEO, and Bob Iger had to come back. Isaac Perlmutter saw it as not only am I losing money, but they brought back the dude who lied to my face and then kicked me out of my job and so he started this activist board member push to try to get Iger out, and he lost, and then he sold all those shares and took his ball and went home. I don't know what Ikea Perlmutter is going to do in the future. Maybe he'll go back to what he's really good at, which is buying companies that are failing and dismantling them for parts and just being rich. But he's not part of the marvel in any sort of way, and they're not part of Disney either anymore.
Ricky Mulvey: Kevin Feige and maybe Jon Favreau as well have a little bit more room to move with the characters in the movies.
Dave Gonzales: Yes, they could do whatever they want. Perlmutter was always worried about the bottom line and because of that, he was worried about merchandising, he was worried about action figures. That's the thing behind not wanting Black Panther or not wanting women to be superheroes is because with the first line of toys that he did with Aviara for X Men, Storm was the lowest selling and so in his mind, he's like, boys don't buy black or female, superhero characters so why make toys about it, so why make movies about it? His view of it all was and it Avid and Kevin Feige, who rescued those characters and were like, actually, you want them in movies. That's where we are now.
Ricky Mulvey: Worth mentioning Black Panther did tremendously well.
Dave Gonzales: Incredibly well.
Ricky Mulvey: He was straight up wrong. The other thing, at the end of your book, you talk about how the visual effects houses are just so stretched. It sounds like it's a really tough working condition. Marvel also got to this place where they were just demanding anything and everything. Where there were no creative limits on the effects they could do, which I think ultimately hurts them. Creativity works best when you have some amount of limits. How are the VFX houses now? It seems like they're getting a break and it seems like this is a very important relationship for this business.
Dave Gonzales: They're getting more time, and they are talking about either joining Yazi or forming some sort of VFX Union, which ultimately is going to have to be the thing that changes it for VFX artists in general. I've seen a lot less scapegoating of Victoria Alonzo, who was fired, but I don't think was causing the toxic environment that has somewhat been reported with the Marvel visual effects houses. Everyone that I have talked to both before and after she was dismissed is like, she was the advocate between the studio and the VFX houses. Of course, if you're an artist who's sleeping under his desk to get a shot done, the person whose face is on the wall, you're throwing darts at is probably Victoria Alonzo, but that doesn't mean she's there, like yelling at you or doing things. The industry needs to change overall. The good thing that Marvel did is they pushed everything besides Deadpool and Wolverine off of this year, so the VFX artists can catch up, especially with something with Captain America Brave New World, which not only had a whole bunch of resuits, but as I mentioned, has a Hulk, so it is going to have a lot of visual effects. Those all got pushed back. They're using many more visual effects houses per project than they used to and my hope is that they're being a little bit more lenient with the bidding. But in terms of is it going to be better? If you talk to the actual DFX workers, no, but it's not just Marvel, it's the industry, and that needs to be fixed as soon as we can.
Ricky Mulvey: Going to where we are in the cycle. One of the things that's interesting to me is I think there's a book that's a precursor to yours, which is Marvel comics, the Untold Story by Sean Howe. The thing that's interesting about is it tracks these boom and bust cycles for comic books. In your book, which takes place over a shorter period of time, is really about the boom, and then we move to the bust. But when you look back at those cycles of comic books, where something becomes popular and then they release too much of it, and then they have to cut back, do you see any parallels today with those past comic book business cycles?
Dave Gonzales: Yeah, I'd like to think that, especially because we're dealing with the people who have dealt with those comic book cycles, and Disney, which has gone through a couple of booms and busts of its own. They were admired in a whole, what would Walt do period after Walt Disney died, where, they were all frozen in fear to hurt the brand. It wasn't until Michael Lisner came and kicked off that another great book Disney Wars, that I would consider a prequel to our book. But, yeah, I think they've learned a few things, but they can't outrun that this is the capitalist cycle for franchise storytelling. What we've learned is nothing ever really dies. We have something that I have been just calling zombie franchises, where it's like, you're Indiana Jones, maybe your Star Wars, right now, definitely your Ghostbusters right now, where it's like, everybody wants these things to continue, but they can't find where the hit is. They can't get the foothold to figure out, this is the thing we're doing because they're pulling so much on nostalgia, they're too afraid. They're like, this is what Ghost Busters is. This is what Star Wars is. I'm trying to stick just to Disney franchises, 'cause I don't want to trash anybody else. They have to because Disney is an IP company, because at some point, when Bob Iger was the CEO, he was creating a so much more difficult than buying and infusing that into your brand. They need to figure out a way to tell better stories. They need to reorient to the story place. I think that's something that they're slowly working their way back to because before, they were just like, What's the spectacle? You want to see how many avengers co we put in one movie? You'll show up for that, and now that people won't show up for that, hopefully they go back to the story. Cause I think if you're chasing a spectacle movie, you're making a theme park ride. That's not how drama should work.
Ricky Mulvey: For what it's worth, we got Tim Sparks on as engineer. You got two slow nods from him, which is tough to get. You got a slow nod one when you said earlier, people want to see superheroes fighting each other?
Dave Gonzales: Yes.
Ricky Mulvey: Then slow nod number 2 came when you said basically the franchises are being treated too preciously.
Dave Gonzales: Yes.
Ricky Mulvey: Something also happened for the business of Disney and the business of the MCU, when they went to Comic Con, they used to be able to put up a box that said Untitled Marvel project. I think that was for more financial analysts than the fans. Because they could pencil in a certain return on that that seemed like a guarantee and now, it seems like maybe Ant Man Quantomania was the end of that. I guess does that change the type of storytelling they do? Does that change the business of Marvel?
Dave Gonzales: The weird thing about Marvel is I still can't think of anything that they just stopped. If they say it's in development, they don't stop developing it ever. Their first Black Panther scripts were coming out while they were still doing phase 1 because they had the writers program, they're just like go for it. All of these untitled projects, they are definitely planting a flag mostly to scare off people. Last time there was a showdown that really seemed like it was a showdown. There was about a month and a half that Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice and Captain America Civil War were releasing on the same day. Comic book fans were like, yes. Everybody else saw what it was, which is two industry titans playing chicken with each other. Eventually, Batman V Superman moved, which I don't know if that says anything about the quality, but that's what happened. Now I think they're still doing it. Things, if I were counter-programming against Marvel, I can't put my tent poles against untitled Marvel's. I can't put my tent poles against Avatar, because you don't bet against James Cameron. At this point, I wouldn't put my tent pole against something like Mufasa, but I think Wicked's going to try it anyway. Those are just things that Disney wins, but I do think you could counter-program to it. With the exception of, like, Deadpool and Wolverine, Disney doesn't do blockbuster comedy. You could put something that's big and funny and fun up against Marvel tent-pole movie, and I think it will still work because these things are just becoming so self-serious. Even now, I've been having friends being like I haven't caught up with Marvel for a while. Should I go see it? I'm like, If you haven't seen Twisters, go see Twisters, man. It's just it's a fun movie, and it's one movie.
Ricky Mulvey: I'm going to put a fork in the sand to mix metaphors. From this point onward, I probably don't have any business-related questions, and we will be doing spoilers for Deadpool versus Wolverine. Great. All right. What worked? What didn't work for you in Deadpool, Wolverine?
Dave Gonzales: MVP Wesley Snipes. I didn't think that was going to happen. When we pitched doing MCU, The Reign of Marvel Studios, the first time, the first outline that I pitched to Gavin and Joanna was Blade to Blade. Because Mahershel Ali had just been announced as Blade at Comic Con. We're like this is definitely happening. The star, the title. Then as things went on, I was nope it's not going to be Blade to Blade. Seeing Wesley Snipes show up, especially since he and Ryan Reynolds did not get along on the set of Blade Trinity, and the joke they have in there, the first one where Blade tells Deadpool, I don't like you, and his response is you never did. I'm just like, this is everything I want.
Ricky Mulvey: It was a weird shot to hear Wesley Snipes say there will only be one Blade. I wondered how that happened. I think it's interesting because there really is no plot to the movie. At the same time, this is a movie that makes fun of a lot of superhero-style storytelling, but also breaks a lot of traditional rules of storytelling. They bring in Matthew Macfadyen early, as Mr. Paradox. They tell you what type of character he is and how he maybe a quirky, fun villain, and then literally immediately sideline him for the rest of the movie. I was like, there's so much self-awareness and also so little self-awareness in this movie.
Dave Gonzales: I think that character was Mobius, which is, but then, I don't know, if you've seen the end of Loki season 2, couldn't be him this time. I do think that character changed a little bit. I do think it's weird that they just give him a McGuffin machine. I also think it's weird that to the contrary to what I was hearing before, the movie came out about Deadpool saving these so-called anchor beings that it was everything took place in the void. I think it changed a little bit from the Molyneux, sisters who are writers on things like Bob's Burgers did a draft of this in 2019 of Deadpool and Wolverine. I'm convinced it is full-on X men, Magneto instead of Cassandra Nova. Final fight on the Brooklyn Bridge from X3 to fix X3, something like that. I thought they were going to save all the X-men from their various universes and throw them into one big fight. It became more Marvelly. The Void's here, Alioth is here. We got a Secret Wars comic Easter egg, all these things. The more Marvel they made it, the more I think they also added in some of the sharper jokes. I think as soon as Kevin Feige presumably told the writers go ahead and go for it, they really did, and they tried to not pull its punches to the point that I'm so shocked by some of the jokes they do make in here, I'm now starting to wonder why certain things aren't in here. Ryan Reynolds and Scarlett Johansson dated. Why is there not a Black Widow variance? That would have seemed like a great thing to make. Did he not do it, 'cause Blake Lively doesn't want her to talk? I'm speculating now why seemingly very obvious jokes are not in the movie.
Ricky Mulvey: Ryan Reynolds is a writer on the movie. He had some creative control on that. You mentioned the X-Men thing, and that was something that worked for me, which I was surprised by for me. X-Men is like the band fish, but for comic books, where it's extraordinarily dense to get into, and the people that are into it get it, and those that don't don't. I'm on the other side for both of those things. What surprised me is they made the X-Men both accessible and also not too self-serious, which can be I would say, a significant problem throughout the history of the franchise. For as great as Chris Claremont's storytelling is. It's a lot of exposition, and there's not a lot of humor in there. Ultimately, I think something that, I guess, was a pleasant surprise is a lot of superhero movies are about battling villains. This one is, Wolverine and Deadpool, are solving a business problem, which is a corporate merger between 21st Century Fox and Disney. There's these moments that I'm sure are big for some people, where they bring out Jennifer Garner is Elektra, and then they bring out Channing Tatum is Gambit. Thank you for saving me on that. I was pleasant. Are you surprised that that works for a broad audience? Because really there's no plot. It's just literally a corporate merger happening under the guise of a superhero movie.
Dave Gonzales: Yeah, I think, ultimately, it doesn't have a plot as much as it has one theme. I don't know if I agree with this theme, but the movie hardly agrees with this theme. It's even the worst version of the IPU deserves to end. We shouldn't leave it out there hanging, which is we used to call that Feige fix it, which is like Kevin Feige doesn't like to admit to mistakes. He'd much rather go back and correct something that he had previously been involved with. That's an interesting thing to talk about, where it's like, everything deserves its end, where I'm like, guys, all your money depends on this thing never ending. That's a very dangerous thing to say that we deserve, but then that's also, I think, why it ends the way it does, or it's like, Hey, guess what? They're not in the Marvel cinematic universe. They're in the exact same universe they were before, except now there's a live Wolverine in there. It ends with a shot where Wolverine and Colossus are at the table. They don't talk to each other. I'm like, guys, you're so close. You're so close to understanding what we actually want but then maybe like the San Diego Comic Con panel just right at the end. They feel like they have to say something, and I'm like, step too far, guys.
Ricky Mulvey: I mean, that's a theme throughout Kevin Feige's reign as the head of Marvel, which is that he understands the comic book audience, but he's not exactly going to serve them. Which is if you were doing the Infinity War saga, it would be about Thanos trying to please the mistress of death and press her. They take certain elements and then just completely throw away the rest. I think that also gives me some hope for Secret Wars and that's coming in 2026, 2027, like Deadpool is inherently cynical. It was a comic book event that was literally made to sell toys in one where the title came from asking a group of children, what words sound cool together and then they got secret wars.
Dave Gonzales: It's going to be interesting to see what they think that movie is going to be about. Because if you read the previous Secret Wars, it was run by the Beyonder. I do think they were planning on making the Beyonder a king variant, and therefore folding it into there. But now with Robert Downey Junior's Doom, you look at the Hickman secret war as Doom is running that whole thing, and why wouldn't you put Robert Downey Junior at the top of all of that? Because that buys you into two different movies. What are you saying? Because Secret Wars needs to be the ending that you're saying everybody deserves. We need to reboot something. I think that they were very interested after End game in introducing some of these new heroes. None of them really caught on as much as they wanted to, but they also haven't recast. They haven't had a lot of successful passing on the mantle. We haven't seen a lot with Kate Bishop's Hawkeye since she's been Hawkeye. She's been teased for Young Avengers, but who knows if we're ever going to see that. The new Captain America.
We're going to give him a shot next February, but let's see if he can outgrow Chris Evans. They already broke the glass on that. Chris Evan's in Deadpool and Wolverine. Everybody's already willing to come back Some of these things need to end. You either need to find a legacy character. You need to find a new face. You need to make a new star, because we don't know what Robert Downey Junior has been paid yet. We know that the Russo Brothers are getting around $80 million to direct both movies, and is reported by variety that Robert Downey Junior is getting significantly more. That's their quote than $80 million. He does not have a brother. I assume if he broke Keanu Reeves' 153 million for Matrix 2 and 3. We would know about it, but this is very similar, and it's going to get very close to it because he's in for two movies. They can't keep doing that. Part of [inaudible] problem with Civil War was you're bringing Robert Downey Junior as a lead player. We can't keep paying him. Robert Downey Junior by starring in the first Iron Man and putting sequel options in there when he got $500,000 for the first Iron Man, but he's like, guess what? I'm going to get more for each additional one and then that was the hit, and they built the universe off his back. He's made $700 million or something off Iron Man in his lifetime. Now we're just going to keep giving more to him. That's not sustainable. I know you guys love the character of Iron Man, but you have Pedro Pascal over on the Star Wars side just doing a voice-over performance. It can't be that hard to get the cost down. Scar Doom and Doomsday and Secret Wars, pay Robert Downey Junior to play Iron Man, and then get out of there. That's too much money to be paying for that performance. He's going to have somebody doubles when Doom's wearing that mask.
Ricky Mulvey: He has already barely in the movies [LAUGHTER] that he's in for the Marvel Studios.
Dave Gonzales: It's a good gig if you can get it.
Ricky Mulvey: You talked about the star-making problem and one thing that I think also is maybe a long-term problem as I continued to concern troll is superhero movies had this in professional wrestling, it's Kayfabe, which is the understanding that the audience knows the storyline is fake. The wrestlers know that the storyline is created, but they're still going to try to create some drama around it and have stakes there. In one of the more cynical parts of Wolverine and Deadpool, it seems like that's completely broken, where there's just fighting with no stakes. There's a lot of almost just sparring matches going on between Wolverine and Deadpool. We've had the lesson that not only do character deaths mean nothing. They're also going to come back fairly immediately after they die. I don't know. Dave, am I jaded or is this a real problem for the long-term future?
Dave Gonzales: It's all about the container that the story is in for me. I've previously said things like spoilers don't matter. It's not ruining, it's enriching, because if any story depends on the surprise of something happening, that's not true. There have been smarter people than me whose name I can't pull out of the ether right now that have said, people should be able to finish chapters of books knowing what's going to happen because that's how you structure a story as you lead up to an event that happens. Then what you feel when that event happens is because of everything that came before it. You could cynically use that. You could cast Robert Downey Junior as Doctor Doom, and my grandma's going to show up thinking Tony Stark's the villain. That could work great for you, or you could do, which what I'm hoping they're going to do for all of us, is we show up for Doomsday or the ending of Fantastic Four. They tell us why this is happening in a way that makes sense. Marvel can do it because in 2008, nobody but comic nerds knew what the infinity stones were and what they did. Now there's a whole bunch of 12-year-olds who know the name of all the stones and what the stone's powers are. They're able educate an audience. The Multiverse Saga is educating an audience about what you're talking about, which is we could kill people. We could do versions of people.
We can give you that hit, what you want is like this movie, in this story, in this episode, the thing that you once happens. But then we're going to move on because it's a wide multiverse, and the story is never going to end. I think eventually the bubble that we're seeing isn't a Marvel Studios bubble. It's a franchise bubble and the way it pops is when it gets so far up its own butt that it forgets that it needs to, Deadpool and Wolverine. Wolverine putting on his mask to fight 100 dead pools that he could never kill works once. They did it, and every screening that I've been a critic screening included, gets cheers when he puts the mask on. Perfect. Can't do that again, though. I don't know what you're saving for Secret Wars or anything, but you're burning a whole bunch of stuff. But ultimately, I think all stories work in their own container because that's the only thing you could have control over. When we talk about movies that have gotten out of control, let's say, Zack Snyder's DCEU, he did a Superman movie that was exactly what he pitched and then they're like, we're going to buy three more. T
hat's not how you do something. You take it one at a time, and that's how you have coherence, you have control, and the team is pushing everything forward, and you could throw some stuff into the ether for another movie to pick up. But being like, Okay, and then two movies later, this will happen, you don't know what's going to happen two movies later. Everything needs to be very well contained. That being said, Christianity, one of the biggest religions in the world. People don't have to stay dead for it to be an emotionally powerful experience.
Ricky Mulvey: That is a good place to end it. Dave Gonzales, I appreciate you being here physically. We're in person in Denver. And thank you for your time and your insight.
Dave Gonzales: Thank you very much.
Mary Long: As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about, and the Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against. Don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. I'm Mary Long. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.
