In this podcast, Motley Fool co-founder David Gardner welcomes Sam Horn, renowned communications strategist and founder and CEO of the Intrigue Agency, based in Austin, Texas. Sam gamely plays a little book roulette. She starts by detailing how to nail a 60-second pitch, then walks us through how to handle rude people, blamers, shamers, complainers, non-stop talkers, people who refuse to cooperate, and those who ignore rules or boundaries.
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A full transcript is below.
This podcast was recorded on August 13, 2025.
David Gardner: Ever wish you could swap verbal land mines for steppingstones? Sam Horn has spent a career turning social shrapnel into smooth sailing. Today, she's here to walk us, talk us gracefully across the Eggshells. Its authors in August Week Number 2, only on this week's Rule Breaker Investing.
Welcome back to Rule Breaker Investing and our Authors in August series. It's our eighth year of Authors in August. I hope you enjoyed. It was great to be with Arthur Brooks last week. Next week, by the way, let me mention that. I think I mentioned this at the start of the month. I'm the author in August. It's my first book that I've written in 15 years. Really, it's the first book I've ever written by myself. All our previous Motley Fool books, I was co-authoring, of course, with my brother Tom. This is, for the first time just my own, and I'm happy to say longtime Motley Fool personality Chris Hill. Bright light that he is will be in next week. He's the interviewer. He will take over this podcast, and he will interview me about Rule Breaker Investing. Thanks ahead of time to Chris Hill. I'll just hope we don't screw it up.
Before we get started this week as I shared at the start of the year. My 2025 book, Rule Breaker Investing is available for pre order now. Each week until the book launches in just about a month's time now, I'm sharing a random excerpt. We're just going to break open the book to a random page, and I read a few sentences. Let's do it. I quote. "What's in a name? "Shakespeare's Juliet says that which we call a Rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But I think names are more powerful than that. In fact, had she named her plan to fake her death project rebirth and shared it with trusted allies beyond just the Friar, that name alone might have changed Juliet's fate. Kind of a strange line, I guess, coming from an investing book. Anyway, that's this week's Page Breaker preview to preorder my final word on stock picking shaped by three decades of market crushing success. Just type Rule Breaker investing into amazon.com, barnes and noble.com, or wherever you shop for fine books, and thank you to each of you who's pre ordered. That means a lot to me.
Sam Horn is a renowned author, keynote speaker, communication strategist and entrepreneur with over three decades of experience in the art of effective communication. She's written about 10 books by my count, including her classic Tung Fu and the recent Talking on Eggshells, which is our subject for authors in August this week. Both have been featured in prominent outlets like the New York Times and endorsed by leading thinkers such as the very Rule Breakery and foolish friend of the fool Seth Godin and Dr. Stephen Covey. Over her career, Sam has advised and coached leaders across industries, consulting for organizations like NASA, National Geographic, Intel, and Accenture on how to craft clear and compelling messages. She's also addressed more than a million people worldwide in her keynote presentations, appearing as a speaker at major events such as South by Southwest. Sam is also the longtime MC and executive director over the years for the Maui Writers Conference. Now, in addition to writing and speaking, Sam is the founder and CEO of the Intrigue Agency, Austin, Texas based branding and messaging consultancy that works with, I don't know, people like you, dear listener, executives, entrepreneurs, organizations to develop intriguing, one of a kind communications, and throughout all her initiatives. Sam emphasizes that true influence comes from communicating with clarity, respect, and originality, a philosophy summed up by her motto. If we want to succeed, we must intrigue. Sam Horn, welcome to Rule Breaker Investing.
Sam Horn: Thanks so much, David. I've really been looking forward to our conversation.
David Gardner: Sam, when I crack open a new to me author's book, I try to picture the prequel. In so many words, Sam Horn, A, how did you become you? B, could you give us, I don't know, a highlight reel? Where did the love of language and conflict alchemy begin?
Sam Horn: David, I'm so glad you asked that question. We both believe that our originality is in our origin story. Here's our origin story. You mentioned the Maui Writers Conference. The very first year, we jump the chain of command. Imagine being able to pitch your screenplay to Ron Howard, pitch your book to the head of Simon and Schuster, and a woman walked out of her pitch session with tears in her eyes. I went over, I said, Are you OK? She said, I just saw my dream go down the drain, and what we didn't anticipate is that no one knew how to get across what they cared about in 60 seconds or less, and so the next day, I stood in back of the pitch sessions, and I could predict who was getting a deal without hearing a word being said based on one thing. Guess what it was, David.
David Gardner: What?
Sam Horn: The eyebrows. Right now, everyone listening, crunch up your eyebrows. If someone's trying to get across their idea, you're confused, confused. People don't say yes. If the person's eyebrows don't move, it means they're unmoved, or they've had Botox. Now, right now, everyone, lift your eyebrows. Do you feel intrigued, curious, like you want to know more? That means we just got what we care about in your door. That's my mission is to get across what we care about, so other people care about it, too.
David Gardner: I never would have guessed eyebrows. I love it. I get it. Sam, let's go backwards, and let's just start in brief. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? I know a little bit about this because I love talking on Eggshells, and you obliquely referenced some of your biographical moments. But where'd you come from?
Sam Horn: I grew up in Southern California in a very small town more horses than people, and in fact, that's one of the places I learned how to care about our communication so that instead of it going in one ear out the other, we actually are mindful about it, so people hear it and are motivated to act on it.
David Gardner: Tell me a little bit about your parents. What did you learn from them? Was there a catchphrase that mom or dad frequently uttered in retrospect that shaped your culture?
Sam Horn: I grew up in a cold war, David, not that cold war, is that my parents, unfortunately, we're in a cold war, lots of old hurts and wounds and they didn't know what to say to each other, so they just didn't say much. I remember going on these long drives and we would go hours without saying anything, and is part of why I believe what if hard conversations don't have to be hard and we can talk things out instead of just suffering in silence.
David Gardner: Thank you for sharing that. Sam, this isn't your first rodeo, I mean, book. Starting with if I've done my math right here, I think it was 1991 with a book entitled Concentration. How to Focus for success. I'm sure you wrote things before that, but at least when I was searching Amazon, that's the first thing that came up for me for you, 1991, so starting there, ish, you've trotted out practical guides, helping entrepreneurs and non entrepreneurs, and I'd like to spot you up, if I could, with the titles of three of your past books, and maybe have you briefly convey, I don't know, a few lines, a key takeaway. Maybe a reason for our listeners to go back and read each of those three books. You ready?
Sam Horn: Sounds like book Roulette. Let's do it.
David Gardner: Let's do it. Number 1, Tung Fu which I believe came out in 1996.
Sam Horn: How to deal with difficult people without becoming one yourself. It's martial arts for the mind and mouth.
David Gardner: Got your attention. Question mark somewhere in the teens, 2000s.
Sam Horn: Did you know goldfish have longer attention spans than we do?
David Gardner: I certainly did not. Given that, I don't want to give short shrift each of these is, I know, just a fun read on its own. Without just sticking with the goldfish, tell us a little bit more. Obviously, I'm talking to the founder of the Intrigue agency. Two questions, really, why should we try to get people's attention? How do we do it, especially if we don't get to work with goldfish?
Sam Horn: Do we have time for, like, a 92nd story?
David Gardner: Of course we do.
Sam Horn: In that book got your attention, I share a technique about how you can get people's eyebrows up in the first 60 seconds of any presentation. You want to hear the backstory?
David Gardner: Please.
Sam Horn: I was the pitch coach for Springboard Enterprises has help entrepreneurs generate 91 billion in venture capital funding valuation. A client came to me. She said, Sam, I got good news, I got bad news. I said, What's the good news? She said, I'm speaking in front of a room full of investors at the Paley Center in New York. I said, That's great news. I said, What's the bad news? She said, I'm going at 2:30 in the afternoon and I only have 10 minutes. She said, Sam, you can't say anything in 10 minutes. I said, Kathleen, calendar, you don't have 10 minutes, you have 60 seconds. Want to hear the 62nd opening that won her millions in funding?
David Gardner: Please.
Sam Horn: Now, first context, she is the founder of Pharmajet. Do you know how she used to describe Pharmajet her elevator pitch before we worked together?
David Gardner: I bet it was too long and not as effective.
Sam Horn: It said that it was a medical delivery device for subcutaneous inoculations. It's a what? Look at those eyebrows, David. Here's the different opening. Did you know there are more than 1.8 billion vaccinations given every year? Did you know that half of them are given with re used needles? Did you know we're spreading and perpetuating the very diseases we're trying to prevent? Imagine if you could have a one use needle for a fraction of the current cost. You don't have to imagine it. We're doing it. Are your eyebrows up?
David Gardner: Absolutely. I love it. I get it, too.
Sam Horn: Would you like to know how to get people's eyebrows up in 60 seconds for your project or program or product?
David Gardner: We all would.
Sam Horn: Now, unless people are driving, I hope they grab paper and pen so that they can write this down real quick and put it into practice. Step Number 1, ask three, did you know questions about the problem you're solving, the issue you're addressing, the need that you're meeting, and go online and put what are surprising statistics about this, and what you're doing is you're turning a monologue into a dialogue in the first 20 seconds, and it's the quickest way to get a skeptic's attention by introducing something they don't know. Ready for Step 2?
David Gardner: Yes.
Sam Horn: Use the word image. The word imagine pulls people out of their preoccupation. They're not checking their email. They're picturing your point. They're seeing what you're saying. Link it to three benefits of what it is you're proposing. Go back to Kathleen Calendar. What are decision makers thinking about painful inoculations? We made it painless. What are they thinking about? They're thinking about reuse needles. We made it one use. David, do you see how we put her UVP, her unique value proposition in one succinct sentence, people are thinking, Who wouldn't want that? That's your goal. Ready for Step 3?
David Gardner: I'm. Step 1 and 2 are very memorable, so thank you. I didn't even have to write them down. Keep going.
Sam Horn: Write down these words. You don't have to imagine it. We're doing it. Now come in with your precedents, your evidence to show This isn't pie in the sky or speculative. This is a done deal. You've got the precedents and the evidence to prove it. Now, their eyebrows are up and they're convinced and trusting that you can carry it off.
David Gardner: I've seen you do that once before on stage at Conscious Capitalism in or near Austin, Texas, Sam, where you are presently base, and I remember it from the first day that you shared that with me, and it's just a brilliant three step approach to catching people's attention. We're talking about your book Got Your attention, the real life experience that has helped raise a lot of venture capital, not just for that one entrepreneur, but for many others, and certainly your work. I'm going to mention your third book now and just get a quick takeaway on that one, and then we're going to get into talking on Eggshells. But you have done such an amazing job helping those of us who don't communicate as professionals, but we all need to communicate, especially in business, and whether you're a marketer, whether you're hoping to launch as an innovator, something new or whether you're just a CEO trying not to do CEOs speak, which a lot of other CEOs do. Sam, you have aided me and many others toward catching the imagination of people. Do you want to add anything more before we move on to Book Number 3?
Sam Horn: Yes, it gives us a competitive edge because everyone else is infobesity wa. If we're long, they're gone, right, David? If we hit the ground running, they think, that's the person I want to work with. That's the person who always take their call. Speaking in 60 seconds sound bites is going to help capture and keep people's attention.
David Gardner: Brilliant, and let's now move on to the third book. Again, you've written more than these, but I've loved the title. I read this one from 2019, but Someday is Not a Day in the Week. Could you just give our listeners a quick few lines about what they would learn, what you teach through that one?
Sam Horn: Pollo Quello said that one day, we're going to wake up and there won't be any time left to do the things we've always wanted to do. This book helps you clarify who and what matter and start bringing more of them into your life now instead of later now is the new later.
David Gardner: I've sometimes heard it said, This way, someday never comes. Let's not just say, Sam, let's not just say someday.
Sam Horn: It's a regret waiting to happen, David, and we can fix it right now. We don't have to wait.
David Gardner: We just took a quick tour through some of your past work, Tung Fu got your attention, and someday is not a day in the week. Given these, let me start by asking you about talking on Eggshells, Sam. Why did this book come to exist? It's a wonderful book. I read it aloud in full to my wife as she cooked supper and sometimes did the dishes, too, and also, sometimes she drives around, I read aloud. That's what I do, and we both loved your book. What is the new thing here that made this book come to exist?
Sam Horn: I think what's happening in today's world of incivility and it's a divisive time, polarized time, etc., people either don't know what to say, so they don't say anything or they react, they get angry, they start making accusations, which just makes things worse. What if there were a better way this is the better way?
David Gardner: I really appreciate that, and we're going to go now deeply into this book. We're going to have a lot of fun talking through it because it is such lively writing and so practical the advice. At one point early on in the book, Sam, you quote Guy Kawasaki's guest from Guy's podcast. He's been on this podcast, too. We're both Kawasaki fans. Barry Nail Buff. I don't know Barry, but he said fight fire with water. Now, I love that. I hadn't heard it before. Sam, could you walk us through a real world moment where maybe you chose water over fire, and what changed?
Sam Horn: Now, once again, if people aren't driving, grab a piece of paper right now. Put a vertical line down the center. You know me, David. I juxtapose everything. It's the quickest way to make complex ideas crystal clear and to show the shift. Over on the left, put fight, over on the right, put flow. Over on the left, are words to lose that make things worse. Over on the right, are words to use that makes things better. Let's just talk about someone's made a mistake. What's the first word out of our mouth? You should have been more careful. You should have told me you were going to be late. You should have called if you didn't understand it, the word should shames people. It criticizes their mistake. It makes them feel worse. My dad used to say we can't make someone feel better by making them feel bad. Get rid of that word should on the left and over on the right. Do you know what we put?
David Gardner: Instead of should, could?
Sam Horn: Well, put next time from now on, in the future, because look, if you say, next time, if you're going to be five minutes late, 10 minutes late, please call so I know you're on your way. From now on, if you don't understand, please ask Sylvia. She understands. Look, what's happening, David. We are going from being a critic to a coach instead of shaming behavior. We're shaping behavior. People are learning from mistakes instead of losing face. That's how they go from fight to flow.
David Gardner: I really appreciate that, and early on in your book, as well, you relabel the word confrontation as clarification. In that same catchy, I'm almost going to say sing songy way, Sam. Could you speak to us briefly? Maybe a mini sermonet around clarification instead of confrontation?
Sam Horn: Now, David, I like to use words because it's one thing to agree with something intellectually.
If we don't know how to actually express it, then we're still confused. We don't say anything, so 62nd story, I have a friend's daughter who works at Salvation Army, and this is the first job as someone who has learning disabilities that she's been able to keep, and she was thrilled when her boss told her that she was up for promotion. The next day, her boss said that she was in danger of getting fired. Now, before, this young woman would have spiraled down the worry rat hole. She would have said, This is so unfair. I can't believe this is happening to me. She would have left in tears. Who knows if she would have come back? Guess what? Over on the left is the worry rabbit hole, and that means we spiral into a confrontation that we avoid or that takes us out with anger or outrage. Over on the right, she said, Let's count him. Can you help me understand? Five words. She went back to her boss, and she said, Could you please help me understand why I'm up for promotion last week, and I'm in danger of getting fired, and her boss explained the circumstance. She was able to explain what actually happened. The boss ended up giving her that promotion because now she understood and just making an accusation.
David Gardner: Can you help me understand? Well, I'm going to use that as a linchpin leveraging the next portion of our conversation where you're going to help us understand a lot of things, Sam, because you've organized talking on eggshells into four parts, but by far, the biggest part, the place I wanted to focus, much of our conversation now is Part 2. Part 2 is entitled, Keep Your Cool in The Heat of The Moment. What can I say and do if people are blank? And so Chapters 5-19 fill in that blank with many different situations that my rule breaking listeners will find ourselves in. It's a wide range, and all of these chapters seem so, very relevant, very human, and for someone like me, very needy of this advice. Let's go to a few of these and have you coach us. Will you play the game?
Sam Horn: Well, is that a rhetorical question, David?
David Gardner: You have to say yes. Again, the operative words here for each of these, I'm going to pick five chapters out. Here we go. The first one, What can I say and do if People are Chapter 5, Rude?
Sam Horn: Rude. Over on the left. Because we're doing left and right columns. If people are rude, don't deny or defend their accusation. Maybe someone says, You women are so emotional. We say, We're not emotional. Now we are. Someone says, You don't care about your customers. Don't say we do too care about your customers. Now we're arguing with our customers about whether we care about our customers. Over on the right, say, What do you mean? Well, I've left three messages. Now, do you see how if we say, what do you mean, instead of arguing with what they're saying, we actually can find out what's really going on, address that instead of reacting to the attack.
David Gardner: Love it. Let's move to the next one. What can I say and do, Sam Horn, if people are Chapter 7, blaming and shaming?
Sam Horn: I love this one. Haven't we all been at meetings and something's gone wrong, and the finger pointing begins. The fault finding begins. Over on the left, put find fault. Well, I wasn't the one. You were the one who got that and back and forth, it goes over on the right, find solutions instead of fine fault, and we can actually use a quote from John F Kennedy who said, Our task is not to fix the blame for the past, it's to fix the course for the future. We actually say these words, David, we say we could spend the rest of the afternoon going back and forth about who dropped the ball. It won't help us get this client or this account back. Instead, let's focus on how we can prevent that from happening again. Let's talk about what we learned from that so we can handle it more efficiently in the future. Don't find fault. Find solutions.
David Gardner: Sam, obviously, what underlies both your answers, Chapter 5 Rude and the answers Chapter 7, people blaming and shaming. My obvious reaction is, you're injecting a positivity that obviously doesn't come naturally to us, perhaps because these are situations where people are annoying us in some way, shape, or bothering us. We're going to do a few more of these in a sec. But I'm wondering, was that positive spark always in you? Is it always there? Do you have to call it up sometimes? Is it hard? One thing I appreciate about you, Sam, is that you just bring goodness and flow into fighting circumstances, and when you say it, it sounds brilliantly simple and commonsensical. But these are not our natural reactions. Where did that come from in you?
Sam Horn: David, I'm so glad you brought this up, and we both are word people. Let's change positivity into proactivity. Because some people might dismiss this as like pollyanna, puppy dogs, unicorns, rainbows. It's all positive thinking. No, this is proactive thinking, and it comes from my folks. I grew up on a ranch, and as Elvis said, when things go wrong, don't go with them. If our cattle got out in the middle of the night and they're out on the country road, I don't want to get up, whatever, and our dad would say, quit belly aching, and we would figure what we could do about it instead of complaining about it, and that is the river that runs through our work. It's not just positive thinking. It's proactive thinking. It's Victor Franklin situations. Here's what happened. Don't like it. Not right, fair, or whatever. No, move over to what we can do about it.
David Gardner: Well said, I'm having a lot of fun. Let's go to the next one I'm going to ask you about. Again, there are many more chapters than these, but these are just fun ones that jumped out to me. Sam Horn, help us, coach us, what can I say and do if people are Chapter 13, not cooperating?
Sam Horn: Okay, 62nd story, David? It's a gentleman his oldest son was going to go off to college. He realized if they're ever going to take this driving vacation across America that they've always talked about, it was going to be them. They get this Winnebago. Have you ever driven East from LA, by any chance?
David Gardner: I have not.
Sam Horn: Well, anyone who has knows, what do we run into? Desert. Lots and lots of desert, and it's like, where are we got to get to Disneyland? We're not going to Disneyland. It's too hot. Lines are too long in the summer. They get to the KOA. They're looking forward to the pool. It's dry. They get to the Grand Canyon. He can't find anywhere to park that Winnebago. He finally parks under a sign, says no parking. He says, they can haul the thing away as far as I'm concerned. The next day, he gets tired of that bickering and backseat driving. These are the days of AAA maps. Do you remember those David.
David Gardner: I sure do. Rand McNally. This stuff was gold back then.
Sam Horn: He tears it in half, David. He says, I give up. You planned the vacation, and guess what, David, that's what they did. It was like their sons day. If you're in charge, you have to get to a certain place. Here's your budget. You're in charge. Then the daughter's day, Mom's Day, his day, you're driving by Snake Farm. It's your day. You get to go to the Snake Farm, and here's the epiphany, David. He said, You know what? I finally realized why they weren't enjoying their vacation. It wasn't their vacation. It was my vacation, and over on the left, if people aren't cooperating, it's probably because we're in control and they're out of control. As Amy Poehler said, I get a little itchy if I don't have some control. Over on the right is co control. No, don't take control. Share control. If people aren't cooperating, it's because it's being done to them, not by them. Give them a voice. Now they're going to own the decision because it's being made by them and not to them.
David Gardner: Listeners who have not already come across talking on eggshells can now see that it's chock-full from one chapter to the next of very practical advice, wisdom, masked, well, not masked at all. Actually, it's very evident, but catched in catch phrases, sometimes acronyms that are mnemonics that help us remember how to act in pressured situations, Sam, you are just replete with fun stories. Let's go. I'm not going to ask a story every time, but you can keep doing if you got it. I don't know if you have one for Chapter 16. We're going to do two more of these right now, Sam. What can I say and do if people are talking nonstop?
Sam Horn: It's Paula Poundstone said, We need a 12 step group for non stop talkers. We're going to call it on and on and on. David, if we're dealing with someone who's talking on and on and on, here's what we can do. Over on the left is suffer and silence. We just wait for them to put a slack in it. We could be there all day David. Over on the right is tactful termination, and now, David, I don't think it's rude to interrupt. If someone's at a meeting and someone's going on and on, they're holding the other six people hostage. That's not fair. Interrupt by saying their name. Say Bob, say Sarah, because people will pause for just a second when you say their name, that gives you a chance to get your verbal foot in their front door, and then we say, I'd like to hear more about that, and we have 10 minutes left in this meeting, and we have several you say, I wish we had time to go into detail, and I believe that if someone is monologuing, it is not rude to interrupt. It is right because we serve many instead of one.
David Gardner: I really love that, and I want to mention that I have changed forever since reading your book earlier this year, preparing for this conversation this week. I have tried to remove the word B-U-T, but, from my vocabulary altogether. I'm quite sure I'm not doing it every time, and there are transcripts that anybody could go back. Since this is a weekly podcast, you can see how successful or not I'm. But I'll say this. I bet I'm saying but a lot less often in 2025 than I did any other year of this podcast, and, Sam, I have you to thank because you're the one who persuaded me as I read your book that anytime you say something that you hope to be persuasive about, and then somewhere in the middle of that sentence, you say, but, it basically invalidates whatever you just said and causes the person listening to you maybe not to listen to the rest of that sentence, and it's a lot better strategy I've learned from you to use and. You've already done a number of times. I just wanted to underline.
Sam Horn: I hope people write this down because, as you know, John Mackey of Whole Foods gave the cover endorsement to Talking on Eggshell, said it's the course correct for today's cancel culture, and he asked Sam, if you could only share one idea from the book, what would it be? David, you just said it. Put the word but on the left, put the word and on the right. Because if I say, Well, I hear what you're saying, but we tried that before. You did a good job on that, but you forgot to do this. We are canceling out what was said before. It is argumentative, put the word and on, it advances conversations instead of anchoring them in an argument.
David Gardner: You just anticipated one of my closing questions that will come later in this interview. I was going to say something like, which line, Sam Horn, do you hope echoes tomorrow morning in the listeners of this conversation or the readers of your book. I think you just put it out right in the middle of our talk. It's the and, but.
Sam Horn: I guess now I'm going to come up with another one. Can I think on my feet? Can I think on my seat? Pressure is on, Sam.
David Gardner: Let's do one more of the, what can I say and do if people are blank? The last one I'm going to quiz you about is Chapter 19. Sam Horn, what can I say and do if people are ignoring rules or boundaries?
Sam Horn: David, have you ever been to Burning Man?
David Gardner: I have not. I've read about it. I think that you have. In fact, I know that you have.
Sam Horn: I have been to Burning Man, and yes, people have heard about the parties. They've heard about the substances.
David Gardner: I've heard about that. Because we have a lot of international listeners, could you just briefly explain what Burning Man is for those who've never heard of this before?
Sam Horn: Burning Man, 80,000 people come from around the world to meet in the desert, in Black Rock desert, and what they do is there's incredible art displays. They pulled in a 747 and turned it into, are you ready, David? A disco car. Here's the thing, though, is that there are ground rules for behavior. It's a gifting economy. They actually walk side by side and pick up every single thing so that the desert is even cleaner than when they found it, etc, and the thing is, is that how can you get 80,000 people treating each other with respect? Is that there are ground rules, and David, look, a meeting, no rules. People can talk for 10 minutes. You can bring up something that you've already solved. I believe that having ground rules for relationships. In fact, maybe someone in your relationship is attacking you for something that you've apologized for 10 times. The rule is that you have a code word, and the code word stops the argument in its place. At which point you can say, I need 15 minutes of space, or and can we revisit this tomorrow or and I don't have any bandwidth right now, and if we don't have rules, imagine going out on the highway, no stop signs, no crosswalks. It'd be chaos. Every relationship needs rules.
David Gardner: Well said, and every chapter in Sam's book ends with what she calls reminder cards. When she's saying things like, on the left put this, on the right put this, you should know, dear future reader that at the end of each of these chapters talking what do I do people are talking nonstop or not cooperating? Sam has the words to lose in those situations and the words to use. That's essentially what you're giving us an abridged version. But these are very powerful tools, Sam that you've invested in your reader, you've given us to act upon, to feel confident, to actually know, maybe you can't get it right every time, but you've got the right word. Especially if you're expecting or anticipating a certain conversational situation, I feel armed and armed in a good way. I'm not trying to fight. I'm going for flow, but I feel armed thanks to the reminder cards positioned at the end of every chapter in your book.
Sam Horn: David, I'm so glad you brought that up because we've all been to workshops, and we leave, and we're all fired up and raring to go, and a week later, everything's back to same old. That's why I suggest put these reminder cards on your refrigerator, put them up at work because it keeps these ideas insight in mind instead of out of sight out of mind, and what happens is we catch and correct that word but slips out. We see that card, we replace it with and. Even in the middle of a Zoom call, even in the middle of a performance evaluation, we can catch ourselves saying something that will hurt, replace it with something that will help by keeping these ideas, in sight in mind.
David Gardner: I wanted to say positivity again, but I've already learned it's not that. It's proactivity. Proactivity, thank you, Sam. Well, that was a fun section of our interview. I just wanted to have you hold forth briefly on each of those. I have a few more questions. Are you willing to keep going with me?
Sam Horn: Enough with the rhetorical questions, David. I guess you can tell I love this. It's an intellectual Disneyland. Let's keep going.
David Gardner: I mentioned your use of acronyms. We really haven't done that. There are a number of them in the book. I know they're important constructs and frameworks for you. One I wanted to just underline here for the fun of it, have you share a little bit more. You introduce at one point in the book, ISA. That's for initiative, sensitivity, awareness. Now, to me, that's defensive driving for relationships. For the chronically rushed Rule Breaker listener here, Sam, ISA, initiative, sensitivity awareness, what's one micro habit that can build ISA without adding a single minute to our busy calendars?
Sam Horn: ISA also stands for interpersonal social awareness, correct? Desmond Tutu said, We have to stop pulling people out of the river. We've got to go upstream and find out where they're falling in. That's what interpersonal social awareness is. It's like playing relationship chess instead of just reacting to something which usually makes things worse. No, we ask ourselves, What's causing them to behave this way? What could be going on that would make them so upset, and if we go upstream, we can actually often prevent what's happening instead of just react to it.
David Gardner: Love that.
Coretta Scott King warned, If you don't use your power for positive change, you're part of the problem.
David Gardner: Sam, what is the most common power that we leave unused in everyday conversation?
Sam Horn: I'm so glad you asked that. I really believe we can be a force for good. David, there's a lot going on in our world right now. There's some dark things going on, divisive things going on. I just had an opportunity to talk about this at Ted, matter of fact. Is it once again over on the left, we can rant and we can rail, and we can rage about what's wrong. Or let's move over to the right. We can create and contribute to and collaborate with what's right. When we are at these crossroads and we are tempted to react and get angrier or subsume ourselves with outrage, does it serve any good purpose? If not, let's choose to go on the right and be a force for good. Albert Schweitzer said, In influencing others, example is not the main thing, it's the only thing. Let's set an example of being collaborative instead of just making conflicts worse.
David Gardner: Another of the words that I learned from you. This one stuck with me through the months since I first encountered it. This is one of those words from another culture that we don't have a word for in English that helps us see something that as English speakers, we might not be seeing because there's this word, in this case, in Korean, a Korean concept of nunchi. It's N-U-N-C-H-I. I'm going to guess I have it somewhat right. Maybe I didn't nail the pronunciation. But here's what I learned from you, Sam. I love this concept. Koreans are taught nunchi from an early age. It means, you wrote, the art of and ability to gauge people's moods and act accordingly. Now, Americans, well, I'll just speak for myself. I'm not exactly top ranked at that. How can we practice nunchi?
Sam Horn: I believe that nunchi is proactive grace. How long has it been since we've talked about grace? Are we walking talking role models of grace? It's as Seth Godin said, Kindness has not left the building. Well, not as long as we're in it, David. I believe we can be that centering peaceful force for good, where we are modeling how in the moment, instead of being kind and cruel, we set that precedent, and other people are more likely to respond in kind.
David Gardner: Well, thank you for, I think the correct pronunciation, nunchi, and also for sharing that phrase proactive grace, which I know is a key phrase, not just in your book, but for you. By the way, I was thinking back to another word that I learned. This is from one of our listeners. My March 2025 Mailbag episode for this podcast, Chris Abels wrote in with a number of words from other languages that give us a new tool or handle once we learn the thing that we don't have in English. I'll just share you one back. Do you know what wabi-sabi is?
Sam Horn: Please tell me.
David Gardner: Good. wabi-sabi is a Japanese aesthetic. This is from Chris Abels our listener. He said, It's this Japanese aesthetic that appreciates the beauty found in imperfection, impermanence, and incompleteness. You gave me nunchi, I give you back wabi-sabi.
Sam Horn: David, that's grace, isn't it? Think about it. It is understanding we're human, that we're flawed, that we will say things we wish we hadn't, that we will react in the moment, and only later will we reflect and then correct? I believe, do you want to know two words that we can use if we do reflect and think, oh, my goodness, I shouldn't have taken that out on them. They didn't deserve that. You want to know what we can say?
David Gardner: I do.
Sam Horn: Sixty seconds story. I have two sons, Tom and Andrew, grew up in Maui. Actually one day it rained, so the boys were inside and my son Andrew turned our hallwall into a mural. I am not a happy camper, David. I am letting him know, I am not a happy camper. He circles his foot in the carpet and then he looks at me and he says, two words. You ready for two of the most beautiful words in English language?
David Gardner: Go.
Sam Horn: Fresh start. It was. If we have taken our anger out on someone, our frustration and they don't deserve it, we can go back to that person, and we can look at them, and we can say, fresh start, and it can be.
David Gardner: Sam, when I think about books related to yours, we all have forerunners, the Greeks forerun everything that I've ever done, I'm pretty sure. One book that comes to mind is Crucial Conversations. Now, I'm guessing you've encountered that book before.
Sam Horn: I have, and guess what, David? Is that I deliberately don't read other people's books. The reason is, I wake up at 3:00 AM with a great idea. It's not my idea. It's their idea. Kudos to them that book has sold millions. It's made a positive difference for many people in the world, and I haven't read it because I don't want to be running with a technique that isn't mine, it's theirs.
David Gardner: I can absolutely appreciate that. While this probably won't mean much to many people as an avid lifetime board gamer and somebody who occasionally has game designers on this podcast, even though we're ostensively an investing podcast. I'm very familiar with one of my favorite global game designers, Reiner Knizia, who's almost like the Mozart of our age, so prolific with so many great games over the decades. He's outlived Mozart. But Reiner never plays anybody else's game for the very same reason you just shared. There are also people who are cultural anthropologists. They want to read every book or play every game. That's a perfectly legitimate or noble way to design or write, as well. But you are in the Reiner Knizia. He's in the Sam Horn school of creativity and design. Toward the end of your book, Sam, you begin to invoke more strongly, I would say, one of my favorite words, agency, owning the passport to our own happiness. Now, get ready because this is the question I meant to ask earlier that you already anticipated. If a listener remembers only one line from Talking on Eggshells, in this case, it won't be the one about and not but. Maybe it speaks to agency. Can you give us a quick thought, something that will stay with us about our agency in this world?
Sam Horn: David, you are sitting down. You ready? I hope everyone else is sitting down, as well. William Blake said, we are all born innocent, and at some point, we will encounter evil. At that point, we either let that toxic individual or incident define or defeat us or we become, you ready for two of the most beautiful words in the English language?
David Gardner: I am.
Sam Horn: Informed innocence. We understand that evil exists. We simply choose not to let it define or defeat us. We choose to move forward and be a force for good and that's agency, David. On the left, there's all these things out of control. It serves no good purpose to pour our tat, our time attention talent into things we cannot control. Move over to the right, pour our time attention talent into where we can add value, where we can make a proactive positive difference. That's our legacy. That's the example we want to set. That's the peace that we seek in being an informed innocent.
David Gardner: Well, my Foolish listeners, you should know that Sam has graciously accepted to play our game buy, sell or hold. Of course, we're about to play buy, sell or hold. But before we get there, Sam, I realized there was one more chapter from the, What to Do I People Are, that I meant to ask you about earlier. I was giving the chapter numbers before. I just remember this is a chapter, and here it is. Sam Horn, what do we do if people are complaining?
Sam Horn: Over on the left, put explain. When people complain, don't explain because explanations come across as excuses. We think they're going to forgive us if they understand. No, they get angrier because it feels like we're not being accountable. Over on the right, put the A train. A for agree, A for apologize, A for act. You were supposed to pick me up an hour ago,. I know the traffic was terrible. It wasn't my fault. But no, over to the right. You're right. Agree. I was supposed to pick you up an hour ago. A for apologize and I'm sorry you ended up waiting so long, A for Act, and from now on, if I'm trying to pick you up on a Friday afternoon, I'm going to build in a cushion for Murphy's law. Now we're on the same side instead a side against side.
David Gardner: I love that. Again, there is a reminder card with a little bit more than just that in that chapter for that very common situation, and thank you for that Sam Horn. Let's move on to buy, sell or hold. These are not stocks. But I'm asking you, Sam Horn, if these things were a stock, would you be buying, selling or holding and a few sentences as to why, You ready?
Sam Horn: Let's go.
David Gardner: In an age where silence is rarely golden, awkward moments can multiply, but sometimes silence holds power. Sam Horn buy, sell or hold, the well timed pause.
Sam Horn: Buy.
David Gardner: Why?
Sam Horn: Because when we stop talking, people start listening.
David Gardner: That is so succinct and so true. [laughs] Next one up. More and more, we're seeing brands and public figures issue, what are being called these days, notes app apologies after missteps. Sam, buy, sell or hold, the performative public apology.
Sam Horn: Well, it's like this is a box within a box. Performative, by itself is like it's not sincere. It actually doubles down on the mistake. It gives us more reasons not to trust them because if they did something wrong, and that's our perception, and they issue a performance, which means we're just trying to do something for show we're not really sincere. I'm going to sell that all day long.
David Gardner: Love it. The Olympic Games are adding new sports every cycle. You may have noticed this break dancing is in. Chess is being considered, and esports might not be far behind. Is this inclusive or incoherent? Sam Horn, buy, sell or hold, expanding what counts as a sport?
Sam Horn: Well, I'm going to sell, and here's why. If we're not relevant, we're not relevant.
David Gardner: You can't just invent something and then it gets to be in Olympic sport.
Sam Horn: Come on. Let's go to our reputation, David. It's like, if we want people, once again, to give us their mind, time and dime, then we better make sure that what we're offering is an alignment with our brand. When we start following the trends and doing something because we think it's going to make the algorithm happy or whatever like that, the people involved go, we know what you're about, and it's not about us, it's about your cliques.
David Gardner: From talking points to media training, public discourse can sometimes these days feel over rehearsed. Where's the messy magic of real conversation? Sam, buy, sell or hold, polished communication?
Sam Horn: Interesting. I think you can be polished and present, David. Polished is in my head. I'm reading from the machine, etc., and it is often insincere, because the words are perfect, but perhaps the heartfelt intent is not there. There's a lovely balance between, yes, we craft things before we speak, and in the moment we're reading the room, and we are responding to what's happening instead of just going with what we rehearsed in advance.
David Gardner: I am not a professional corporate communications person. I've never played one on TV. Some of them are listening, Sam Horn. What is your, I'm not even going to say your best piece of advice, maybe just your third best piece of advice for corporate communications professionals?
Sam Horn: I think, put yourself in the story. I think that too many corporate professionals are neck up. They're trotting out statistics or data or research, and people are going, where's the humanity? Remember, there was a president who was asked about a situation and his own wife was dealing with cancer, and he gave a very left brain analytical response. Many people feel that was why he was not elected president because he did not reveal his beating human heart.
David Gardner: Now that was Sam's third best piece of advice. You're going to have to work directly with her to get the Top 2. Let's keep going. Will you play a few more? Another rhetorical question for me.
Sam Horn: There. See, you answered your rhetorical question. We're gating.
David Gardner: I'm learning as we go. [laughs] Thank you, Sam. Just a few more. This is too much fun. We're texting more than talking, some people say these days. When we do talk, it's often with one eye still on a screen. Sam, buy, sell or hold, voice to voice communication in 2025?
Sam Horn: Well, yes, I'm buying that. Sixty seconds story, David, I know this is a lightning round. Can we do lightning game?
David Gardner: No, I would say that's a rhetorical question. You just go. [laughs]
Sam Horn: My sons were at Virginia Tech, and they would text me, and it's like, mom, do you have Elo's phone number on the fridge? I would text back, yes, here it is. But I would also say, did you get to see that Virginia Tech game with Duke and Coach K? How did you do on that test? You know what? My son texted me back one time, and he said, mom, you're never the first one to end the conversation. David, that hurt at the time, because see, I was reaching out. I was trying to connect. But Andrew said, mom, I called, I texted. You gave me the answer. We did connect. What I realized is that when we're texting, often, it's so short, there is no connection. The voice to voice communication is where we give context, not just content and that's when we connect.
David Gardner: There is a lot of wisdom in your sons. I'm beginning to realize that.
Sam Horn: Thank heaven for Tom and Andrew Horn. They teach me every day.
David Gardner: Two more, Sam. We live in a time when people are encouraged to, get ready for it, you've heard this phrase, speak their truth. But in high stakes conversations, is saying everything really the same as saying the right thing? Sam, buy, sell or hold? Let's go with radical honesty.
Sam Horn: Sell that stuff. I'm just telling my truth. It's like, I'm just being honest. Often we're being offensive or we're being inappropriate. We're not reading the room. We're not asking ourselves if this is the right time. We're not asking ourselves if they're even receptive to this. David, what's the river that runs throughout our conversation? Is there is a balance between sharing what we want to say and whether it is appropriate, whether in that moment, it will add value and serve or whether it will sabotage? If it won't serve, it will sabotage in that moment. Don't tell your truth.
David Gardner: I really had fun putting these together and thinking, try not to give you too many softballs, Sam, but you hit every ball so well. Here's the last one. This one might be a softball, but I'm going to be very curious how you answer this one. Finally, every corporate team offsite seems now to include communication workshops, team building, maybe some improv. Is it actually helpful or has learning to listen become its own industry cliche? Sam Horn, buy, sell or hold? Professional communication training.
Sam Horn: Well, it's a hold unless, correct? If it's neck up, if it's just don't take it so personally, that insults our intelligence, isn't it? It's a concept. If it's concrete, if communication training doesn't have dialogue, it's not helping because it's conceptual and we need concrete. Hopefully, David, that's what we've done here. It's like, what do you say when people are complaining? What do you say when someone's rude? It is only when we give actual dialogue that people can say that it helps. Otherwise, it's theory, it's not real life.
David Gardner: I love that answer. I've loved our conversation. Sam, I'm wondering, I'm sure some others are wondering, too, if somebody was inspired by what they heard or learned from you today and wanted to reach out and connect with you or The Intrigue Agency, how do we reach Sam Horn?
Sam Horn: I hope they reach out to me on LinkedIn. Here's why, yes, you can go to my website, samhorn.com. It's just LinkedIn, I'm on there every other day, and my life is my lab. Something just happened on the plane last night, I'm going to write about it today. You can reach out to me, connect with me on LinkedIn. Most importantly, you can get current real life situations and what to say instead of what not to say.
David Gardner: Love it. Sam, what a treat to have you join Rule Breaker Investing from fighting fire with water to the art of nunchi to proactive grace to reminder cards for the conversations that matter most. Thank you for sharing the soul behind Talking on Eggshells, a book I have enjoyed so much and hold onto. You're reminding us that considerate dialogue is a choice that we can make every day. Here's to more mindful ISA, more and less but and a world of conversations that leave everyone taller. Fool on, Sam Horn.
Sam Horn: Thanks. Hope people have found it inspiring, insightful and useful.
