In this podcast, Motley Fool analyst Jason Moser talks with psychologist David Rosmarin, author of Thriving with Anxiety: Nine Tools To Make Your Anxiety Work for You.
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A full transcript is below.
This podcast was recorded on Feb. 15, 2026.
David Rosmarin: When it comes to investing, I think people often are in fight or flight because they're either really excited about something like aggressive, and you got that Wall Street energy, or they're afraid, nervous, apprehensive, running, selling, impulsive, and that thing.
Mac Greer: That was Dr. David Rosmarin, author of Thriving With Anxiety. Nine tools to make your anxiety work for you. I'm Motley Fool producer Mac Greer. Now, Motley Fool analyst Jason Moser recently talked to Rosmarin about thriving with anxiety in everything from parenting to investing. Enjoy.
Jason Moser: I'm happy to be joined by Dr. David Rosmarin today. Dr. Rosmarin is the founder of the Center for Anxiety and a Psychologist at McLean Hospital, as well as an associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He's also the author of Thriving With Anxiety, Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. Dr. Rosmarin, thanks so much for being with us today.
David Rosmarin: Thanks for having me, huge honor to be here.
Jason Moser: It was a fascinating book, and I really got a light out of reading it. I want to start off with why do you believe that normal or healthy children today have higher anxiety levels than the psychiatric patients that you noted in the 1950s?
David Rosmarin: It's an incredible finding, isn't it that healthy children today have more anxiety than inpatient psych hospital patients from the 1950s in the United States. Now, I want to be clear. That's only in the United States. If you go to third world countries, you go to middle income countries, they do not have as much anxiety. The reason is because, well, kids today think that if they have anxiety, then something is wrong with them, and it takes them down the tubes. The reality is anxiety is part of life, and our culture tells us everything to the opposite, which is creating an anxiety epidemic.
Jason Moser: Interesting. You also described in the book, anxiety as a false positive fear response. In a world of seemingly real threats every day, I mean we just went through, I think, a very anxious time for many of us over the last several years with COVID and whatnot, but in a world of real threats, how do we distinguish between a misfire and a legitimate alarm?
David Rosmarin: I think Warren Buffett said it best. He's my psychologist. When people are fearful, get greedy and often we misinterpret anxiety as a problem when, in fact, it really is an opportunity. That's not only the case fiscally, which I'm sure we're going to talk about being the nature of the podcast, but it's also the case emotionally in terms of our relationships, in terms of others. There are things that are going to set you off. That's not a bad thing. It means you're human and learning how to mine those opportunities is really what this is about.
Jason Moser: Glad you brought up Warren Buffett because obviously, we're focused on investing for the most part, here the Motley Fool. But let's dig in at that a little bit because emotions are one of those things we can't avoid them. Yet, when we talk about investing, we really try to make sure we keep our emotions at bay. We don't want to let our emotions guide decisions. How do you do that? It's a bit of a squishy topic. I think some of us are probably given a little bit more the ability to do that than others, but it is difficult in life, but investing as well to keep our emotions out of the equation. What are some ways that we can actually work on doing that?
David Rosmarin: I think the operative word that you said is try. To be perfectly honest, it's trying in a futile way. It's not going to happen. You're human and it's money. It's going to get to you. If you care about funds, which almost everybody listening to today's episode is, otherwise, you wouldn't be tuned into this topic. It's going to get your emotions. Your relationships are going to get you, your money's going to get you. It's just this important stuff. You're a human being. I don't think the goal is to get it out of the equation. I think the goal is to learn how to harness it and learn when to listen to it and when to know that it's just noise. But getting it out of the equation, that's super human. I actually don't think it's possible nor beneficial.
Jason Moser: Well, I think that's it. Emotions, you can't turn them off. They just are. It's learning how to manage it. That's interesting. I think many of us are familiar with fight or flight. That's something I think many of us understand. You also talk in the book about this rest and digest system, which I thought was interesting. Can you expand just on the physiological importance of this system and why trying to suppress anxiety actually prevents that rest and digest system from kicking in.
David Rosmarin: Yeah, there is a compensatory or I should say, an opposite process to the fire flight system, which is called rest and digest. It's mediated by a chemical in the body called the citicoline. If you really want to geek out, you can look that one up, which is in some ways the opposite of adrenaline, which I'm sure is something you've heard of. But those are your two processes, adrenaline for fight or flight, and then your acetylcholine, which is mediating this rest or digest system. Now, when it comes to investing, I think people often are in fight or flight because they're either really excited about something like aggressive, and you got that Wall Street energy, or they're afraid, nervous, apprehensive, running, selling, impulsive, and that thing. Channeling the rest and digest system means accepting that you are going to feel anxious at times and not letting it get the better of you. It's not getting rid of it. If you're going to try to get rid of it, you're going to end up making bad decisions. Rather to know, you're going to get walloped, it's going to happen. Boom, adrenaline is going to go off. It's going to happen. You're human. Then once you accept that and give yourself a minute, five minutes, maybe 10, the acetylcholine will actually move through your system, and you'll start to come. But if you try to get rid of those feelings or be impulsive in order to deal with them, God help you. Then they're going to stay.
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Jason Moser: You say in the book that relaxation techniques can actually dull the effects of exposure therapy. As a reminder for listeners, what is exposure therapy first? Then, secondly, why is it more beneficial to be uncomfortable during treatment?
David Rosmarin: In order to, I would say, overcome clinical anxiety, which is an issue. We've been talking about anxieties and emotion, which all human beings have and can be very adaptive and functional, and healthy, and positive. At a certain point, anxiety does get the better you. We call that clinical anxiety or clinical anxiety disorders. That's when anxiety interferes with your day to day. If you have a clinical anxiety disorder, then it's not just about fully embracing and moving into is, but it's more about going to a professional and getting some help to take things down a notch. At a certain point, anxiety does get intense and it gets in the way of your life. That's the line that we're talking about.
Jason Moser: The problem we were speaking about before, just to be really clear is that we interpret any anxiety as a problem, and that's not the case. That just means you're human. But at a certain point, there is validity to that. It does get in the way at a certain point for certain people. Then you're looking at exposure therapy, and this is challenging, where you actually face the anxiety head on in therapy with a coach or a therapist who's going to take you through, and you're afraid of driving, you're getting in that car. You're afraid of losing money, you're going to be writing out a script about what it's like to be dead, poor and actually going over in your mind, and it's not fun. But that does build resilience. That's exposure therapy in a nutshell. Facing your fear, I guess. That's something we are taught as kids. Yes, sometimes it's not so easy, but it can certainly be effective. In the book, you mentioned Stephen Covey's 90/10 principle. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and why that can help someone with social anxiety better understand their interactions with others?
David Rosmarin: Almost all the time when interacting with other people, it's non-verbals. Most of the stuff that gets communicated, it's not in the words, and this is one of the biggest problems we're having today. I don't know about you and your business, but email communication is so exhausting today. The number of words that we are just seeing on a screen in front of us. What I started doing really after the book is giving out my cellphone number, and I put it in the bottom of all my emails, and I'm like, if something's not clear, text me or call me, and I hop on a call in three minutes, I hear the non-verbals. I hear the pregnant pauses. I know where people are at. It just smooths over the relationship, so now you can actually get back to business. Yes, there is a time for that 300 word email when you're documenting or stuff's going to get shifted around to lawyers. We all have that. That's fine. But you're dealing with humans, so 90% of our interactions are really not just verbal or not more than that. They transcend it because it's about connection.
Jason Moser: That makes sense. There was an interesting case study in the book, I thought, with Madison and her issue with self loathing. In your experience, why is it that people who seem to have things going their way. Maybe they're wealthy or they're successful, or they're good looking, but things are going their way. Why are they often your most challenging clinical cases? It seems like they've got it made. Why is it such an issue?
David Rosmarin: That's exactly the issue. I want to be really clear for the audience today. The hardest cases that I have ever seen in 25 years of working in this field, they all have the same profile. They are the best looking, best educated, smartest children of super wealthy parents and the reason, I think, is because of impostor syndrome. They're never good enough. They never feel like they've earned it, and often they haven't. They feel like they've never had to actually experience anxiety and all of a sudden, they're facing some adversity and they're like, I just can't they change their major, or they take a leave of absence, or they go on a galivanting trip around Europe or Asia or wherever in order to escape. Now, often those kids will come back and they'll work hard and they'll face the anxiety and they'll recognize that if you're going to do big things in life, it's going to suck emotionally at some point and they accept it. Their parents have accepted it, and that institutional, I should say, generational data can transfer. But it's a hard lift, and it can be the most rewarding cases in the world, but also the most challenging.
Jason Moser: You said Imposter syndrome. I think we've all probably been there before. I felt that way before, as well. There is a section in the book called Anxiety Is a Compass. What do you mean by that?
David Rosmarin: Sure.
Jason Moser: What are you anxious about me?
David Rosmarin: Well, I mean, not to get too frenken off.
Jason Moser: I always said when I talk with people and they're getting ready to become parents. I'm the father of two daughters in college. Now, the one thing I realize the second my first child was born, I'm never not anxious. I'm never not worrying about that child. It is just constant and get ready to worry for the rest of your life.
David Rosmarin: What does it say about you as a father?
Jason Moser: Well, hopefully, it means that I care, and I love them very much.
David Rosmarin: Isn't that a beautiful thing when you think about it?
Jason Moser: It is. It's the greatest thing ever.
David Rosmarin: Also, when people think about by the way, it's not always so simple. Let's say people really care about money. Why? They want to support their family. They want to have some security, so that way they can bring their best self to their relationships. They want to be able to go on a vacation and actually enjoy people's company together and not worry about stuff they've seen somebody else who didn't have all that. Often, there's really a very wonderful aspect about it that you care about. It's not always just greedy trying to pad your bank accounts. There can be something else beneath it if that's what makes you anxious, which is often the case.
Jason Moser: Well, it's the old adage. Money maybe doesn't really necessarily buy happiness, but it affords you a lot of opportunities to pursue happiness and be happy and not worry as much. Which is true? Well, sticking with the parenting theme, then, I think this worked out very well. What is lawnmower parenting, and how does that contribute to societal anxiety?
David Rosmarin: Everybody's heard of helicopter parenting.
Jason Moser: Sure.
David Rosmarin: Where you hover and wait and the minute there's a problem, you swoop in and pick the kid up and that often happens, I would say in high net worth families, where parents don't want their kids to fail because they had the means, and they feel that in every other area of their life, they're successful, so their kids should have that success, too, which often creates some of the dynamics that we spoke about before. Lawn mower parenting takes things a step further, where you're actually paving the way in front of that said child by mowing the lawn in front of them. They don't have to cut through brush. They don't even have to walk through un manicured surface. They can simply go behind the lawnmower and be able to walk on grass that's perfectly two inches tall and tickles your feet as you walk, which obviously does not build resilience, does not build self-confidence, does not build a sense of identity, and it doesn't build the ability to withstand the adversity and the vicissitudes of life, which does not bode well in general. You can see how that would be a problem. It also creates loneliness because when children are walking behind that lawn mower, so to speak, they're walking alone, maybe with a sibling, but they're not walking with friends. They're embarrassed, and that lack of connection creates a crisis of loneliness, which is ubiquious today.
Jason Moser: Absolutely. There was a part of the book here that really took me into my investing mindset, and you're talking about decoupling efforts from outcomes, and it makes me think of how we as investors, very much we try to stay focused on the process and focus less on the outcome. In investing, we're not going to bat 1,000. We're going to get some things wrong. But if we can nail down a really good process, that really gives us a chance for consistent and positive outcomes. It's not 100%. But again, this decoupling efforts from outcomes part of the book made me think about that way. and I wonder, why do you feel like that is a necessary step for reducing chronic worry?
David Rosmarin: Truth is we're human, and you cannot predict the future, and that's never going to change. For some, that might have a spiritual frame to it. But even just from a psychological standpoint, that's the truth. We live in the present. We do not live in the future. We might live in the past sometimes, but we cannot predict the future. We do not have a crystal ball, at least I don't. That means that some degree of anxiety will be there unless we simply accept that that uncertainty is part of the package, and we march forward into the darkness not knowing what we'll be guided by our values and our principles, as opposed to trying to predict a future, which is futile. That creates a disparity or a chasm between our experience, which is being guided hopefully by principles and by method or an approach in investing or anything versus the ability to control it, which we just don't have.
Jason Moser: I'm glad you made that point about predicting the future because investing is very much a forward looking exercise. The market is pricing these stocks based on what they think these companies are going to do in the future. It's not as much about what they did in the past, and that's why I feel like for investing, I'm sure, in all walks of life, it's nice to have that process down and you don't have to worry about the outcome when you have a solid process.
David Rosmarin: I'm from a bit of a finance background. My dad is in finance, a brother in finance. My father always told me, a guaranteed investment run. Don't walk. [LAUGHTER] Because it's just a lie, and that guarantee is intended to create a less anxiety in the short run, and it might. But really, in the long run, that vulnerability is going to get exposed.
Jason Moser: Absolutely.
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Jason Moser: You write in the book about the power of prayer and how that is a perspective shifter rather than a way to manipulate outcomes. I wonder how do you feel this helps a secular person understand the utility of spiritual practice?
David Rosmarin: First, something fascinating I found in my research at McLean Hospital in the Harvard Medical System, which is that over 80% of our patients, and this is in Eastern Massachusetts. The least religious enclave in the entire union of United States of America are using prayer in some way to cope with their distress on a regular basis. Those are fairly consistent, even in the general public. If you look at Gut poll, if you look at other national pew forum, if you look at other national surveys, that people often do resort to prayer. It's not 100%. It's not even 90, but it's a lot. It's certainly the statistical majority of people in the United States of America. Less so in Europe, even more so in South America and culturally. But that's the baseline. Part of it is an actual direct spiritual experience of speaking to whatever somebody believes in, but there's another piece of it that I think is just very human and as you said, not religious, maybe even secular, which is appreciating and embracing the uncertainty and the lack of control that human beings have and being OK with it, it's like when I get on a plane. I'm not flying the plane. The armor door is closed. I'm not going into that cockpit. I'm sitting in my seat. Do I relinquish control at that point to whoever's flying the plane? That will greatly improve my experience of flying if I can just like, time to get a ginger ale and enjoy the ride. That I think is really a psychological aspect of prayer in addition to the spiritual or even religious pieces of it.
Jason Moser: There is a section in the book called Everyday Heroes. I wonder, can you talk a little bit about what that means and then why you feel like some level of anxiety is required in order to live a meaningful life?
David Rosmarin: I asked this question to a lot of people, What's something in your life that you are the most proud of that you accomplished?
Jason Moser: I've always said it's my family. Getting married and having my kids, that's the most important thing I'll ever do.
David Rosmarin: Getting married, having kids, and is that on the list in the top five things what has made you anxious?
Jason Moser: I would say, yes, absolutely. I was saying, I never stop worrying about my kids, and the things that are closest to you that you love the most probably also bring a little bit of worry.
David Rosmarin: Almost always. What you care about will make you anxious. If you want to be a hero in a certain area, you're going to have to face that adversity and that anxiety. I've never met a super successful person who did not have significant anxiety about their success, and that's often what fuels them because they are really embracing the uncertainty and able to push forward and able to tolerate it and nevertheless, moving through the universe with that perspective in mind. It's just a healthy way that we have lost in the United States. I think the more we try to control our feelings, and the more we try to control uncertainty and get our hands around the universe, as opposed to accepting our place, doing the best we can. I'm not saying to just leave it all the chance, of course, but doing the best we can with principles and with values in place and then moving forward from there, not trying to control our feelings or the outcomes is just a more healthy approach to humanity.
Jason Moser: Last question before I let you go, and I'm going to put you on the spot here. I have a feeling I know what the answer is going to be. It's trying to pick your favorite child, I guess, but you have nine tools that you talk about in the book. Nine tools to make your anxiety work for you. I feel like all nine tools are meant to work together as a system. But if there was one tool out of those nine that you talk about in the book, is there one that stands out to you as more effective or essential or your favorite, so to speak?
David Rosmarin: I'll tell you the entire thing is really about connection. The first three tools are about connection with yourself. Can you accept your anxiety, or do force it out? Can you push through the difficult feelings, or do you let them defeat you? It's about your body and your soul. The second three are about our connection with others, using it to connect with other people to understand them, to tolerate difficulties, difficult people, and to remain connected to them. The last one is about our spiritual connection, learning to really embrace uncertainty and the limits of our humanity and nevertheless move forward in the universe. But in all three domains, it's about not being isolated and not being alone. To me, that's really the pinnacle of dealing with anxiety of thriving and of being successful. This is really where wellness and leadership come together.
Jason Moser: Well, he is the author of Thriving With Anxiety. Nine tools to make your anxiety work for you. Dr. David Rosmarin, thanks so much for being with us today.
David Rosmarin: Thank you for the great conversation. I really appreciate this.
Mac Greer: As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about and the Motley Fool may have formal recommendions for or against, so don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley Fool editorial standards, and is not approved by advertisers. Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only. To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes. For the Motley Fool Money team, I'm Mac Greer. Thanks for listening, and we will see you tomorrow.
