Want to slash your cable bill? Trim the tab on other service costs? On this episode of Motley Fool Answers, Motley Fool CFO and master negotiator Ollen Douglass tells us how to negotiate like a pro. Plus, we tackle your money etiquette question about splitting the restaurant tab when you've only had tap water and a salad and everyone else has had steak and pricey cocktails. (Read on for the transcript or listen for free on iTunes or Stitcher.)
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
This is Motley Fool Answers. I'm Alison Southwick and I am joined, as always, by Robert Brokamp and Dayana Yochim. But wait! There's more. We have a special guest today, and that is Ollen Douglass. He is CFO of the outrageously amazing company The Motley Fool. Ollen, thanks for joining us today.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Oh, thank you very much for inviting me, Alison.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Ollen is here because not only is he an excellent CFO, but he's also a master negotiator. So today you are going to help our listeners hone their negotiating skills and lower their bills by putting the screws to their cable companies and other service providers. We're also going to answer your money etiquette questions on splitting the restaurant tab, and then we're going to discover who wins the race to the bottom for the worst customer service in America.
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ALISON SOUTHWICK:
There are few things that bind us together more, as human beings, than our mutual hatred of our cable provider. And thanks to Consumer Reports we now know that the worst of the worst is (and actually this is not just of cable providers, but of all companies) the worst of the worst is ... Do you want to guess, Dayana?
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I'd say Comcast.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Ollen, what do you think?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I'm going with Dayana.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Well, I'm sorry. It's actually Time Warner Cable.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, the other one.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
The other one. Right. Pretty much it's between Comcast or Time Warner Cable. Yes. They have the worst customer service of all, which we don't actually have in Virginia, where I am. We have Comcast.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
It explains a flag I saw going past Comcast this morning. It said, "We're not last!"
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Not number one! Not number one!
DAYANA YOCHIM:
So I did a little research and found that the best-rated pay-TV provider, according to The American Consumer Satisfaction Index, is AT&T U-verse.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
I don't even know who that is.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
And here's how you get to be the best-rated pay-TV provider: You have a 69% satisfaction rate.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
In other words, a D or D+.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
So good for you, AT&T U-verse! And it earned that by having its ratings fall less than Verizon FIOS and DIRECTV. So we're essentially talking about the worst ...
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
... the not-so-worst of the bottom feeders.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
Right. The only kid in the class who's not going to be held back, but barely.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
But you still have to do summer school. Sorry.
So have any of you guys tried cutting the cord at all? Because millions upon millions of people are doing it.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I keep whittling away. I keep chipping away at the cord. I got rid of most of the cable channels except for HBO, which was offered as part of a package. I want to back off it even more.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
I did. We had Verizon FIOS and actually switched to Cox — to prove to Verizon that we really are serious. And then Verizon gave us a better deal, and so we switched back to Verizon, all in the span of two weeks. It did mean we had to sit at home waiting for the cable person, but it did work.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I actually went the other way and went to a bundle. Now I have my phone, Internet, and cable through Comcast because they offered me such a great deal.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Oh!
ROBERT BROKAMP:
There you go.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
And later in the show you will find out how he got such a great deal and couldn't pass it up. Part of negotiating, as we're probably going to learn, is being able to walk away if you need to, and so (save this for later and put it in your back pocket) if you are looking for advice on how to cut the cord, there's a few things that I think are great. TechCrunch recently did "The Diary of a Cord Cutter in 2015," which is great because it goes through some of the emotions that you might feel. You know — hurt, denial, betrayal — all that kind of stuff. And then also Gizmodo.com has a great article, "How to Cut the Cord and Ditch Cable Once and For All." Again, put that in your back pocket because that might become useful when you do end up calling Comcast or Time Warner to negotiate your bill.
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ALISON SOUTHWICK:
When money gets weird or complicated, you better call Dayana. She'll take all of your awkward money situations. And today's question comes from Audrey. She writes:
"I'm a vegan, and I don't really drink a lot of alcohol. When going out to dinner, I don't think it's fair to split the bill down the middle when all I had was a salad and water, and everyone else had drinks and steak. How do I avoid paying more than my share without looking stingy and cheap?"
First of all, Audrey, from your description of yourself, I seriously doubt that people are inviting you out to restaurants and enjoying your company ...
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Mean! Mean!
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
I'm just kidding. I'm sure she's a lot of fun. The last sober vegan I met was a hoot.
So all right, Dayana. What's your best advice for Audrey?
DAYANA YOCHIM:
This is a pretty common scenario — when you go out in a group and everybody is just ordering willy nilly. Maybe you don't order appetizers, or you're not a big drinker.
So I asked Lizzie Post this question when I interviewed her years ago. Lizzie Post is the great-great-granddaughter of manners maven Emily Post. Perhaps you've heard of her.
She revealed a really polite way to stick within your spending habits — spending eating and drinking limits — without coming across like a total killjoy. She said the best way to handle it is to head off the whole thing immediately. So before you order (the waiter has come) say something like, "Hey, guys, tonight I really just feel like getting a salad. Can we do separate checks? It's going to be easier on the waitress." Preempt the conflict.
Now let's say the check comes and it looks like everybody's going to split the tab. And you've seen this ... suddenly all the credit cards get thrown on the table ...
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Everyone throws their credit card at someone...
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Yeah. So at that point you need to say, "Hey, guys. You know what? I only ordered a salad, so here's what will cover my meal and tax and tip." I find cash is a great way to ...
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Oh, I know all about you and cash, Dayana.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I'm a big cash spender. It's an easy way to cover your portion of the bill. (Just make sure you have some ones.) And make sure you put in your fair share. Include tax and tip.
And, of course, another way to handle this if maybe you can't afford to go to these lavish places that people are recommending, is to suggest someplace different, or a different activity ... or maybe learn how to cook. I have not taken that advice myself. Come over for cocktails!
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Or in Audrey's case, Come over for salad and tap water.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
So the point is address the issue before it becomes that uncomfortable moment when the check comes.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
My wife and I were talking about this earlier today and she had an experience where someone didn't handle it so gracefully. It came off more as anger that this person obviously didn't order as much and everyone wanted to split the bill equally. Because you're essentially saying to that person, "We want you to pay more than your fair share." She did not handle it so well, so there's got to be a graceful way to do it.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Wait. What did she do?
ROBERT BROKAMP:
She got angry ...
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Flip the table over?
ROBERT BROKAMP:
That's right. She started throwing the knives.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Yeah.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
And then another one we thought of, too, is to say you're going to leave soon and that you want to take care of the payment now. You put your money on the table and say, "This will cover my bill."
You've pre-empted it before it gets there. Even before the waitress comes, you put it out there if you haven't done it before the food was even ordered and served.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I have another idea.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Oh, good!
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Why don't we pretend that you're at dinner with friends? And so you say to your friends, "Hey, guys. I only ordered a salad and water. Is it OK if I only put in X amount?" My guess is most people will say, "Sure, great. Instead of everyone putting in ten dollars, everyone else just put in eleven bucks." And you just move on.
The reason of splitting the check is because there's an assumption. People aren't thinking that there is someone who paid a lot less, so you just bring that to their attention. I think a lot of times the whole idea of splitting it equally is mainly because people don't want to take the time to figure out the difference. So they'll just add on another buck. Nobody cares. It's just somebody has to tell them to care, and then they'll just do it.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Right. So maybe it's also a good way to test your friendship. If you freak out that you just had salad and water and if you're friends are like, "Tough! We're splitting the bill down the middle," maybe you need new friends.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Yes. I would agree with that.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
So now we've made what is a pretty straightforward situation an opportunity to evaluate your life and the people who surround you.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
That's what dinner's for.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
And add the therapy costs to that.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Yeah. You're welcome.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
"Hey, guys, let's split the therapy costs since we discussed you 15% of the time."
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ALISON SOUTHWICK:
So if you have an awkward money situation, you better call Dayana. You can email us at [email protected].
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ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Now it's time for the main event, and we have with us Ollen Douglass. He is CFO of The Motley Fool and has been at the company for about 14 years. Where were you before here? Just curious.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Before here I was at a mortgage company. Gosh, I can barely remember now. Wow! First Nationwide Mortgage.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Well, once you come to The Motley Fool, why bother remembering any previous jobs? It's such a magical place. So then, Ollen, what makes you such a great negotiator? Like where did you learn this skill?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I think it was largely on-the-job training, to some degree. And I think particularly what we've done at The Motley Fool is really try to find a way to negotiate that's very much aligned with our core values of collaboration, honesty, and really having a commitment to finding win-win outcomes. I think all of that led us to a negotiating style that we think works very well and fits in with our core values.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
And that applies to when I'm dealing with the Devil, aka Comcast?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
It absolutely does. It absolutely does.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
So before we get into actual tactics of negotiating, can I maybe set the table a little bit? We're talking about your cable bill. Your insurance. What else is negotiable out there?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I think there are lots of things out there. Again — your cable bill. Your insurance. Other things that come to mind — your car, to some degree. You can do this with automobiles. It's a little bit different steps, but there are things you can do there. Anything where you're talking to someone that is selling something that you can get from multiple providers is an opportunity to negotiate.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
I have read where people do it with just regular old retail stores. I've tried it a few times, and I only had success once, but it worked. It was a smaller store. We were going to buy a bunch of tablecloths for our wedding, and we just said, "If we buy all of these, can we get a deal?" And we got it. You've got to talk to the manager, obviously.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
The key there — with some of the places you don't expect it — is to talk to the manager. And if you do that, there's certainly opportunity.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I'm particularly interested in this topic, right now, since my cable bill just went up. I think the special promotional period ended. So this is a question that sort of relates specifically to that, but also any other negotiation you might encounter: What should I do before I even pick up the phone and talk with, as Alison said, the Devil?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Well, before you go dancing with the Devil ...
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
I feel bad, because I'm sure people actually work at Comcast. They're working, and they're doing their job ...
DAYANA YOCHIM:
And just remember, that's Alison's voice saying that ...
ROBERT BROKAMP:
You're going to go home and your cable's just not going to work.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I will say — and this is going to be quite controversial — my last experience with Comcast was actually very good. I was very happy with the person that came. He came on time. He did good work. He was polite. He gave me some suggestions on how to save money on some things I was considering doing, and so it was a surprisingly good experience.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
And you got a good deal.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
And I got a good deal.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
So what did you do before you even picked up the phone?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
For any negotiation, most of the hard work comes, as you said, before you pick up the phone, or before you talk to the person. And it's really in understanding your situation.
First of all, there's a mind-set kind of thing. Remember that most negotiations are about solving problems, and it's rare that you're trying to solve a problem where both sides want the exact same thing.
In the standpoint of Comcast, for example, you want to lower your bill. They want to keep a customer. Those are not mutually exclusive. And when you start to think about it that way, it highlights where you can come together to make things a little bit better for both. It's possible for both of you to win in that situation.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
In other words, don't go in saying, "I'm going to win. I'm going to pummel them into giving me totally cheap service." That's a bad attitude.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
It's a really bad attitude and it's not going to work. And one of the things to keep in mind with all of these things — particularly when you're calling Comcast — is you call them maybe once every few years. Once a year if you're really aggressive about it. The person on the other end of the phone is dealing with hundreds of calls a day. If I were to come to you and say, "Hey. I want you to go into a battle. I know that you do this once a year. I want you to fight against someone that does it a hundred times a day." Would you say, "Okay, I'm going to go in there and knock this person out?" It's not going to work.
The average person trying to win on their terms is just not going to win. But there is something that you can do, in that scenario, which is understand that you both want the same thing. This person is being paid to retain customers. You want to be retained as a customer, and so that's an opportunity for both of you to work toward that common goal.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
And I bet with those hundred calls during the day, they deal with a lot of angry people so for them to have someone polite I'm sure is just a relief to them.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Yes, it is. That's one of the subtle negotiation tactics I do, sometimes. I'll call and I'll say, "Hello?" I'll listen to their response. And if they seem a little tense, I'll say, "Can we just take a second and relax?"
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Your little moment of Zen.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Yeah. I say, "I know your job. I have customer service people where I work and it's crazy, so I know you have to get work done, and you're probably on the clock. But if we can just take a second ..."
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
I want to turn on some Enya.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
Feel me massaging you from across the phone.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I usually get a laugh, or I can hear someone smiling. That just kind of changes the mood. I just want them to know upfront this is not going to be a battle. And if you've done something wrong, that's a very good thing to do; is start the call with, "I'm having problems with my cable. I'm pretty sure it's my fault. I just need help." Because "I'm having my problems with my cable and it's your fault," is a tough way to start a conversation.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Yes. Obviously I should go around and find out what other deals are being offered, but it's hard when it's not apples to apples. It's like this one's for new customers only, or for us around this neighborhood, we only have one Internet provider that we can use, unless we want to do the dial-up thing again ...
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Right ... And so it's very helpful to do your homework. If you can't, you can still go in and approach it. Use what you have. You can say to them, "Hi. I'm a long-term customer of Comcast. I want to keep this service," if you're comfortable saying that. "I just need to reduce my bills. Can you help me?" So they're the ones that have all the information. Sometimes you just need to ask them what they have.
And again, you're putting them in the position that they want to be, which is how to retain you as a customer. So don't do your research. Say, "I'm here. What can you do to lower my bill?" And ask them. And often they will be very happy to help you. That's a great call to have, as opposed to "you Devil."
DAYANA YOCHIM:
So no, "I'm cancelling unless you can lop off fifty dollars."
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Yes. So I will tell you that most of the time you should never threaten to do something that you're not willing to do, because again, you're going up against pros, and if you call and say, "I'm going to cancel unless you do something," chances are they're just going to say, "Okay. Cancel." Then it's done and they're not going to try to sell you. It's just not going to work. Too many people try that bluff for that to work anymore.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Yeah. So what do you do if they won't budge?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Well, there's a couple of things. First of all, don't be afraid of no. No is just another piece of information that you can use. And it may be that no is the right answer for both of you. If you really are at your wit's end and they can't make it better for you, maybe it is time to change providers. So no may be the best thing for both people. If you think that you could have done better if you had another chance to do this ...
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I want another take. A do-over.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
A mulligan.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
You want a Comcast mulligan? Well, hang up and call again.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Don't even say goodbye.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Well, I would say goodbye, but the chances of you getting the same customer service rep right away are almost zero, so ...
DAYANA YOCHIM:
It's going to be super embarrassing, though, if that happens. "Hey, remember me?"
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Or if you want to — if that weird thing happens and because it's already weird — just say, "Hey, can I speak to someone else?"
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
What about just, "This got weird. I know you were cool with the Enya and the candles, but things just got weird when you told me no."
ROBERT BROKAMP:
It's not me. It's you.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
So what about that "can I speak to your manager" thing? That sounds so aggressive. I hate confrontation, by the way.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
Well, I was going to bring this up. I don't know if this is particularly a woman trait, but I am totally comfortable going to a Mexican flea market and bargaining with someone in a stall, because I feel that's accepted, and I'm in another country, and whatever. But the idea of negotiating scares me. They might not like me. For some reason I'm motivated by the idea that this person might not like me and that they'll say no. It's scary.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
It is scary and that's why I think a lot of the negotiating stuff we do is about removing the fear and removing the conflict. That's something to keep in mind. You want to remove conflict and move toward common goals. So ask questions. Listen to what they're saying. Try to visually put yourself on the same side of the table. "Here's my problem. How can you help me? What are my choices? What are my options?" Then all of a sudden it's not a question of yes or no. It's a choice of option A, B, or C.
And I think that if you've reached the right department — if you're Comcast, you talk to the cancellation department — their goal is to retain you as a customer and they will always have options for you. But they're going to ask you questions. "I can give you a better rate if you extend your contract with the company. Are you willing to do a bundle? We have a really nice special on a bundle, which may get you a little bit of a lower rate."
That's something that I did when I called them. I ended up getting a bundle. "Do you really love that HBO, because there's something we may do that will be cheaper but may not have everything that you need?"
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
The answer is yes, by the way. Although I know Game of Thrones is over this season, yes.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
It was funny. I binge watched The Wire, The Newsroom, and a couple of their other things, and now I'm like, "Okay. Maybe I can let go now." Maybe I need to read more books.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
But knowing what you want and what you like — that's giving the customer service rep more information, so they can then offer you a deal that works best for you.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
You said something interesting. You said to call the cancellation department. Now, even if I (don't quote me Comcast) don't intend to cancel, is that still the right move?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Yes, that's still the right move. What you want to do is get to the people who are being incentivized to retain the customers.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I said Comcast, but it's any company.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Right. Just say, "Do you have a cancellation department? Who can I talk to about my service?" And that will take you to the right group of people who have not only the incentives, they're going to have the tools and information to get the right deal for you.
And asking for the cancellation department is not a threat to cancel. It's just "direct me to the people who are best positioned to help us achieve our mutual goals."
ROBERT BROKAMP:
To move a little bit away from the cable company situation, there are a lot of services you get that are regular (like the lawn service) or a one-time deal (fixing your car), or something like that. I had a guy that stopped by my house and saw that I had a dent in my car and said, "I can fix that." He gave me a price and said it would take a few hours and it will cost you this. I figured out that he basically is charging $200 an hour.
So I said to him, "I'm interested in what you're offering, but that's a pretty high rate. To me, $50 an hour is a reasonable rate for what you say you're going to do." And he said, "Okay, you're right."
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
He went from $200 an hour to $50 an hour?
ROBERT BROKAMP:
Yeah.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Wow.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
Robert, will you call Comcast for me?
ROBERT BROKAMP:
But it is sort of deciding what's fair to pay the person and then explaining it. "Well, I appreciate your service, but this is what I think is a reasonable price."
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I think that's a great point. I think a lot of the negotiation tactics that I use are ultimately designed to get something that's fair. If you want to call Comcast and get cable free forever, I don't really have a lot of pointers on how to do that.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
So on the point of Robert negotiating other things, do you have any other tips? We've mostly focused on cable, but do you have any other advice on negotiating for other services? Things to remember?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Yeah. If you were going for your insurance — and these tend to be potentially much less confrontational — call your insurance company up. Ask for a policy review. Ask them, "Are there ways that I can lower my monthly insurance?" And they will work with you. It's a very collaborative kind of process. "Can you afford a higher deductible? Can you do this? Do you need this amount of coverage? Do you have other insurance that may take care of some of this?" They can do lots of things to help you lower your bill. And they're happy to do that. It's a very good thing to do.
It's similar to credit cards. Sometimes you can call your credit card company and say, "My interest rate is a little high. Is there any way I can get a lower rate?" Sometimes they will just lower your rate. Sometimes they may ask you about other credit card balances and say, "I can lower your rate if you transfer balances from another card that you have over to this one. We can help you consolidate. Lower your overall bills." There are lots of things that people can do to help you.
I think the common theme is calling these people, getting the right person, and actually just asking for help. One of the things I wouldn't do is call up with the sob story.
It doesn't go over as well. I mean the fact that it's Christmas Eve and you haven't paid your bills and you call up and say, "Well, it's Christmas Eve. I can't pay my bills." The pro is going to say to you, "Well, on my calendar I knew it was Christmas a year ago. Christmas is at the same time every year. How come you didn't know this was coming?" So a lot of these things break down, and the sob stories ultimately just take up a lot of time. If you want to help this person out, be nice and be quick, because there's lots of calls. Be polite and get to the point.
ROBERT BROKAMP:
This process actually can start with something that you should do regularly with a lot of your bills, and that is comparison shop your insurance and other things like that. "I'm going to look at five providers. What are they offering?" That gives you information to use if you feel like you want to negotiate. Say, "Listen. I can go to this insurance company and pay this or get this service. What can you do to meet me in the middle?"
DAYANA YOCHIM:
And with some of these products (insurance and credit cards in particular), how good of a customer you've been comes into play. They are not going to lower your interest rate if you have been late paying bills, or if you're continually going over your credit limit. The same thing with insurance. They might look for ways to lower your rate, but they're going to look at how many claims you've filed over the years.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
And another thing I do very quick that will help in another category. If you're thinking about trading in your car and going for a new car, there's a whole different set of steps for buying a car. But just a trade-in. Go online. Go to Edmunds.com. Get an estimate of the trade-in value of your car.
Take that into the dealer when you go to buy a new car, and when it comes time to trade it in and say, "This is what this car seems like it's worth." Instead of leaving it to the dealer to decide how much they're willing to pay for your car, let them know that you've done a little bit of research. You can take that one step further and go to CarMax. They will give you an estimate on what to buy your car for, and they will buy that car from you for that price. So you can take that to your dealer and say, "Look. Either match this or I'm just going to take it to CarMax and sell it to them." So a couple of good tips there.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
So to recap, do your research. Remember that both you and the company, whether it's the Devil or not, are working toward a common goal. Don't be afraid of no. Make sure you're talking to the right person. And just ask for help and maybe get the Enya CD cued up just in case.
So before we go, Ollen, what's your best piece of advice for someone who's ready to go negotiate some of their bills?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
I think the best piece of negotiation advice I would give is to know your walkaway. What's the point when you would rather not have what you're asking for? Keep that in mind. Set that before you start to talk.
Also, once it's settled, forget about it. You're trying to get a better deal. Whether you get the best deal in the world or not is probably not going to be that meaningful. In the long run you're trying to improve your life — not make it perfect with everything you do. So do the best you can and forget about it until the next time.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
All right. Wonderful. Ollen, thank you for joining us today. Dayana's going to go negotiate with Comcast and then come back and tell us how it went.
DAYANA YOCHIM:
I will. I will. This is all great advice. Thank you, Ollen.
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
You're welcome.
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ALISON SOUTHWICK:
This has been Motley Fool Answers. I want to thank Ollen, again, for joining us today. It's been wonderful to have you. Let's have you back next week, huh?
OLLEN DOUGLASS:
Excellent.
ALISON SOUTHWICK:
All right. Our email is [email protected]. Tell your friends about the show. It's edited by Rick Engdahl. The theme music is composed and performed by Dayana Yochim. For Robert Brokamp, Dayana Yochim, and Ollen Douglass, I'm Alison Southwick. Fool on!
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