In this episode of Industry Focus: Wildcard, Dylan Lewis and Motley Fool contributor Dan Kline discuss what happens in a bankruptcy filing, why they happen, what the available options are for businesses to avoid them, and how they can emerge stronger from them. They take a look at some companies in the retail, fashion, and cruise lines industries that are struggling or have filed for bankruptcy protection.

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This video was recorded on May 6, 2020.

Dylan Lewis: It's Wednesday, May 6th, Wild Card Wednesday. We're going to be talking about a scary word, “bankruptcy,” because it has been coming up in headlines a lot over the past few days. I’m your host Dylan Lewis, and I'm joined by Fool.com’s, Dan Kline. Dan, what's going on, man, how are you holding up?

Dan Kline: Not too much. It's just an endless flow of work and trying to figure out what dinner is going to be. [laughs] And pretending I care whether my son does his schoolwork. Those are really the three tenants of my existence at the moment.

Lewis: Have they been keeping more or less the same pace with your son's school?

Kline: Not particularly. And they made the mistake of saying at the beginning that the grades don't count, that's essentially about keeping your brain engaged, which is more or less like telling my son, like, don't do the work. [laughs] His teachers have emailed me, “Oh, he missed these assignments.” And I have to go in and be, like, “Arghhhh!” and pretend to be really, really stern, and I just don't care. [laughs] Like, this is all about survival right now. And in most cases, he's done the assignment, he just hasn't handed it in correctly. So, yeah, I can't pretend I care.

If this continues through September, which I fully don't expect, I assume they'll be back in school in September, obviously, then I’ll have to act like an actual parent, but right now, if he showers every day, like, I'm good. [laughs]

Lewis: Yeah. I’ve talked about it before with a couple of our other folks that help on the show, but I feel like the divide is whether or not you have kids and whether or not you are still working. And those are the kind of the two things that determine how this is going for people. And the people that are working and have kids are having a rough time. And everyone who has kids I think is having a hard time occupying them.

Kline: The people with younger kids, I mean, poor Maurie Backman, who has three pretty young kids, and like, they're not capable of schooling on their own. Yet somehow, she still writes, like, 18 more stories than I do every week. [laughs] So, you know, all the Fools are coping. And look, we're very lucky, we still get to do this and that's about as big a blessing as we could have.

Lewis: Yeah, it's fantastic. It's great to connect and I hope listeners are enjoying these, you know, kind of no matter what's going on with their situation. It's certainly fun for us to continue to do these and we obviously love hearing from folks about how they're handling stay-at-home and just kind of how they're occupying their time.

Dan, I can't help but occupy time reading news. And unfortunately, if you look out over the past week or so, it seems like, if we were going to Sesame Street this, you know, the word of the day is “bankruptcy.” We've been seeing that in a lot of headlines. We've seen a couple of retailers and a couple of folks, kind of, in the physical store space file already. Most notably, J. Crew filed for Chapter 11 this Monday becoming the first major nationwide retailer to do so during the COVID period.

Kline: So, this is one of those scenarios where it's reported as the first coronavirus bankruptcy, and the reality is, this is the first bankruptcy that was probably inevitable that was hastened by coronavirus. Now, there is the caveat that they might have been able to spinoff Madewell and get some cash to last a little bit longer, but I think it's fair to say J. Crew as a brand has fallen out of relevancy. Dylan, you are much younger, somewhat hipper than I am, have you been in a J. Crew in the last three years?

Lewis: No, I haven't. You know, the last time that I stepped in a J. Crew was probably four or five years ago when I needed to buy a suit and I bought a suit from them, and I haven't been back since.

Kline: The last time I was in a J. Crew was college. [laughs] That's the 90s. And, admittedly, they are catering to 46-year-old men, that's not their core audience, but my son, who is 16 and was into fashion, never asked to go to J. Crew. It wasn't a brand that resonated. And I think that's a major problem with any of these brands that depend on being hip. You know, we've seen it with the Gap, the Gap has fallen out of favor. It's not cheap. So, when you’ve fallen out of favor -- True Religion, another one that for a minute was gigantic -- and once you're no longer, sort of, trendy, it's very hard to maintain an audience.

And that's why I actually think Madewell has a much better prospect. Jeans can be eternal if they're done at the right price and, sort of, well, Madewell. [laughs] I mean, I don't mean to play on their name, but you can buy jeans at Old Navy, but I think of those as disposable jeans. Like, you know you're paying like $25 for them, they wear out. I haven't shopped at Madewell, which now does have a men’s section, I think that wasn't true last time we did the show. They do sell men's products. And their products are supposedly, they will last long, they will wear well. And that's a foundational piece of, sort of, everybody's outfit. Jeans styles change, but a company can adapt with that.

Who does J. Crew speak to? It was kind of a preppy brand, you know, is preppy a thing anymore? I don't think it really is. So, this is a company that was saddled with debt, but this is also a really interesting bankruptcy. Because usually in a bankruptcy, when a company emerges, you look at it and go, “Oh, that's not that much better.” Like, they made some arrangements. In this case, they took $1.65 billion in debt and turned it into equity for their debtholders, which basically wipes it off the books. Not “basically,” that wipes it off the books.

This is a company that comes out in a stronger position, but they’ve said they intend to split Madewell off and they haven't really explained how they're going to do that. They're not going to IPO, so are they going to be two brands running with separate profit and loss, like, you know, not leaching from each other, sharing some common expenses? They are going to have separate CEOs?

So, there's a lot of questions on this. But this is one of the bankruptcies that you're seeing that it is very possible Madewell will certainly survive. J. Crew could survive because they're coming out of this with no debt, with $400 million in pledged financing, they're in a better position than say Lord & Taylor which filed a little bit after them, or Hertz, which we're going to talk about a tiny bit later, which has not filed for bankruptcy, but basically they have no money and they got their lenders to say, “Okay, we'll wait another two weeks before you have to file for bankruptcy.” This is actually kind of a different story than a typical bankruptcy.

Lewis: Well, and I think it's probably worth us talking a little bit about bankruptcy writ large for a second. Because so often when people hear bankruptcy, they assume going out of business and what we're really talking about with Chapter 11 bankruptcy is a store, in this case a retailer, looking and saying, “Well, how can we restructure our debt in a way that makes sense and allows us to continue to operate.” And in the case of a J. Crew, they just had so much debt on their balance sheet that it almost seemed inevitable that this was going to happen.

You talked about the fact that they were trying to spin out that Madewell brand and go public. And I think back maybe four or five months ago we did a show about that. And the reason for that was, you know you can, kind of, look at that two ways, you could say, they have this wildly successful brand that they want to isolate and show the operating strength of, or there's a very struggling legacy business behind that company that's weighing down the results and is in desperate need of cash.

What Chapter 11 is going to do, hopefully for them, is allow them to restructure debt in a way that does not make it incredibly difficult for them to operate and hopefully can get them out from underneath the burden of it. Whether that actually happens though, Dan, remains to be seen.

Kline: And let's talk about where that debt came. This was a leveraged buyout, and in the case of a leveraged buyout, you're essentially using the assets of the company to secure the money to buy the company. Now, if the company continues to grow quickly, that can be fun, but when a company stagnates, that puts it in a position where it's very difficult for it to pay its debts. That's what happened with Toys “R” Us. Everyone likes to talk about Amazon killed Toys “R” Us, Target killed Toys “R” Us, Walmart killed … Toys “R” Us killed Toys “R” Us. When you take on $6 billion of debt, you have to pay interest on that debt. If you're not growing that means you can't invest in your stores and that's what happened with J. Crew. You have very little runway.

But it's also important to know that some Chapter 11s are what's called a prepackaged Chapter 11. I don't know if that's a legal term but that’s how it's described, and that means that they've agreed with all their debtors before they file as to what's going to happen. So, in some cases with the Chapter 11, it's a hope to restructure. In this case with J. Crew, they actually have an agreement in the books.

And I'm bringing this up because I talk about cruise lines a lot. It is very possible that all three of the major cruise lines, if they can't sail for the rest of the year, which is not the plan but could happen, they could end up in a Chapter 11. In all cases I expect that to be a prepackaged Chapter 11, because the debtors, the people that they owe money to, don't want these normally profitable businesses to go out of business because they won't get paid back and they will end up owning collateral that is not particularly useful.

If you end up having to liquidate a J. Crew, there is some money to be made there. If you end up having to liquidate a cruise ship, you are not in a particularly good position. There are not a lot of buyers out there for cruise ships. So, you're going to see a lot of bankruptcies, but some of these bankruptcies are going to be strategic as a way to get out of leases, to get rid of debt, and there's going to be no question that these companies will come back from those bankruptcies.

Lewis: You mentioned the LBO thing, and I want to go back to that for a second, Dan. You know, LBOs are generally something that I shake my head at. I look at that approach and I say, “Well, you're basically just hopping on, writing a business and deciding that you're going to absolutely sack it with debt, so that you can take a controlling stake in it and then maybe trim some costs out and do what a lot of private equity firms really wanted to do.

And I find that very often if you're doing that with a company that is not, like you said before, wildly successful and growing very quickly, then you are probably going to run into operational issues down the road. And even if it goes really well, I mean, you still have a lot of debt to service, very often just on the interest payments, you know, not even paying down some of the principal of that.

So, I think just one of the takeaways from what we're seeing with this J. Crew story is be skeptical of LBOs, because very often it’s something that is, kind of, taking advantage of a company's willingness to take on debt. [laughs]

Kline: Yeah, I don't think they should be legal, that is how -- I don't see a scenario where an LBO works out. You know, this is a very dangerous, because what can happen is, private equity can come in and they can, kind of, strip the company, they can take the pieces they want, they can selloff the assets they want, they can pay themselves big bonuses or management fees or however they want to structure it and run the company into the ground. This is almost always bad for employees.

I come from the newspaper industry where there have been a lot of private equity leveraged buyouts. And when you have that and you’re in an industry that needs to change course, you do not have the ability to do that, you do not have the financial cushion, your ability to borrow is really important when you need to make changes. And being part of an LBO generally takes that away. So, I can't think of a scenario where an LBO has turned out great for everyone involved except the people doing it. So, it’s very, very skeptical. It's something I'm very, very skeptical of and I would rather not see.

Now, in this case, this was a private company, had been a public company, it’s a private company, it doesn't affect shareholders, but if I'm a shareholder and the company is part of a leveraged buyout that somehow maintains shareholder equity, I'm running for the hills, this is not a place I want to be.

Lewis: Yeah, LBO's remind me a little bit of the scene in Goodfellas where the mob is striking the deal with the local restaurant and they go into business together and they start bringing all the supplies in and they walk them through the restaurant front doors and they go straight out the back door and they start selling them on the secondhand market. And you know, months and months later the restaurant goes out of business because, you know, the mob was just taking advantage of the fact that the restaurant was there as a front to be able to grab stuff from. So, I worry about this when I see it.

And I think, if anyone is interested in this topic and kind of wants a dramatized version of what it looks like on the corporate level, there's a movie called Barbarians at the Gate and it's a little dated, I think it's from the 90s, but it is a very good look at the world of LBOs and corporate takeovers.

Kline: I think it might be on HBO On Demand, but it's not particularly difficult to find. And, look, people in a leveraged buyout are in it for themselves. And I'll point out, if you're at a newspaper and newspapers are important because they deliver local content. The first thing that happens in an LBO of a newspaper is they cut the staff. And you can cut backroom staff. If you combine three companies, you don't need three CFOs, but the second you start taking customer-facing people, which would be reporters in a newspaper, but every business has customer-facing people, the second you start to reduce that, you reduce people's need for the product. And it becomes this endless cycle.

And I used to work at a newspaper, I was the editor of a daily newspaper in Torrington, Connecticut. When I was there, there were 21 people on the editorial side. That newspaper is now owned by a decent company, but previously it was owned by a very terrible private equity company. When it was owned by the private equity company, it had one full-time staffer.

Now, how relevant or local could that newspaper possibly be with one full-time staffer, even though the physical task of putting the newspaper together was no longer done in that newsroom. It can't be very local. So, that went from something that when I was there, did not run AP copy, every single thing in it was local. You know, if your kid lost a tooth, we would put that in the paper. I'm not kidding, that was literally a policy. If you sent us the who, what, when, where, why and how, we did a dots column on Sunday that would say whatever it was. You know, my son is potty-trained, like, whatever the … because it was that small a community, you know, a local paper. And when you strip that, what's the reason to buy it? Because you like the jumble and that doesn't run in the Hartford Courant? Like, it is a really strange business model. And it is just not one that I ever see good things from.

Lewis: Yeah, I think so often we're talking about the idea of looking long-term, finding businesses that are built to last and can enjoy competitive advantages over five, 10, 20 years, and I think the LBO model tends to prioritize short-term profits, cost efficiencies and really, it does it at the expense of long-term growth and the sustainability of that business.

You know, if you're looking to maximize the value of a newspaper business, you will do that over the course of two years to eke out more profits in your first couple of years with the LBO arrangement. But you know that by year four or five you're going to start running into some issues where people are going to be, like, well, this newspaper is not that good anymore, I'm not going to subscribe. [laughs]

Kline: Yeah. And it could be the same thing with stores. Toys “R” Us became dated; it wasn't a store concept that made sense anymore. That model used to be, wow! Toys “R” Us is the only place you can go see a lot of toys; every kid wants to go there. Well, mom has to go to Target or Walmart anyway. The second Walmart and Target took on the toy section, Toys “R” Us should have gone, “Well, what can we be? Can we be the place where you play games? Can we have interactive … ” and we've talked about this, I ran a toy store.

My toy store had interactive stations all over it. It had a 10,000 square foot train layout that people would drive for hours to go see on Sundays. You know, we did things. We had barbecues. We did things that were fun. We got a cotton candy machine, don't do that if you’re a store owner, that makes all your stuff sticky for, like, two months. It is not smart to hand people cotton candy as they enter your store. [laughs]

But you know, you learn from your problems. Toys “R” Us was the same store when I was a kid to when they closed, and that is generally not a good idea, like, even the McDonald's menu has evolved from when I was a kid. I mean, when I was 12, there were no Chicken McNuggets, [laughs] you know, and then, now there’s a McRib and they've tried a hundred other things that did or didn't work over that time-period. And a lot of these stores, because they don't have the money, they just stay the same.

And especially in fashion, you know, you don't get a lot of chances in fashion, but Geesh! You need to have the money to reset if a quarter’s collection fails. You need to do a pretty dramatic reset and rebrand and J. Crew has not been able to do that.

Lewis: Yeah. And actually one of the points I wanted to make earlier when you were talking about kind of, the difficulty of being in retail, specifically in fashion retail, is this story has played out so many times, where there has been a very trendy business that, kind of, managed to catch lightning in a bottle and was insanely popular with the highly influential 16 to 24 demo, and fashion changed and taste changed. You see it with Gap, you see it with J. Crew, you saw it with Urban Outfitters, there have just been so many times where, like almost any marketplace, once someone figures something out that's new, novel, they enjoy the benefit for a little while, but then other people start imitating it or consumer tastes change and it is very difficult to stay trendy.

Kline: I don't believe in fashion as an investable area, because the only example I could think of -- so, like, Levi Strauss would be one that has been just part of the American … you know, it's part of our outfit for 70 years or 100 years, I don't even know how long, but a long time. The only other fashion example that has endured is Nike, you know, they've managed to make their shoes a thing and it seems like it’ll be pretty hard for them to lose that. But nothing else, everything else is trendy or changes.

You know, Old Navy isn't about fashion, it's about value. So, they are fast-fashion, they're going to have things that are trendy and they're going to go with trends, but you take your kid to Old Navy to buy cheap clothes for school that are going to wear out. Like, that's when your kids are growing and changing sizes.

If I look at a fashion brand and I don't see, sort of, like a foundational model, like, oh, okay, I might not buy the trendy sweatshirt there, but wow! They sell the socks that everybody buys that, that's just going to be you know something people buy forever. If I don't see that, I can’t invest in it, because even if it does well, it's going to be so up and down. And Gap is in real trouble now, but Gap for a long time had, like, a peak and then a valley and then a peak and then a valley. And as an investor, that's really difficult to predict, again, that's like betting on which TV shows are going to be hits, that's not an easy thing to do.

Lewis: Yeah. And you mentioned Gap is in trouble, and the interesting note that I saw was that they said they had $1 billion in cash evaporate from its accounts since February, and that they might have as little as $750 million in the bank as early as this week. And I mentioned that because while we started the show talking about J. Crew, they are certainly not the only ones that are in the bankruptcy conversation right now. As you know, a lot of these retailers are struggling already. And now people are staying at home, a lot of people aren't working and don’t have paychecks coming in, and they're not going to go out and spend money.

Kline: Yeah, it's going to be ugly. And some of them were inevitable. Lord & Taylor was in trouble before this. Hertz was in trouble before this. But some of these retailers that weren't in that much trouble, have seen their runway disappear. And I'll give an example, Macy's. Macy's was a profitable company, shrinking profitability, but profitable, that was making changes to its business. Do I think those changes were the right ones? No, not particularly. But they had the ability to try some things out. This is going to really, really shorten that ability. They're going to come out of this needing to do well pretty quickly.

And I don't know that there's going to be a clientele looking to buy outfits at Macy's. I think people are going to go to Marshalls and TJ Maxx which are going to have their pick of unsold merchandise, so they’re going to have better than usual quality.

You know, people who have been buying clothes at Walmart, they probably don't want to do that, but Walmart is open. Target has gotten a lot more fashionable. I worry if -- you know, we're lucky we're working, so our paychecks haven't really changed, but the people who are haven't been working, even when they go back to work, I'm not so sure they're going to buy a $600 suit at Macy's when you can buy a $200 suit someplace else.

Lewis: Yeah, and that actually adds a really interesting element to all this, Dan, because so often we see part of the bankruptcy process as, you know, the liquidation or the heavy, heavy discounting of products so that companies can raise cash, maybe move some inventory away and hopefully do so before it gets too aged and winds up going out of style. And with stores closed and with people staying at home and with people not being paid, I imagine that this is going to be a wrench in that process.

Kline: Yeah, I mean, look, there are some retailers that haven't gone bankrupt because there's no mechanism for liquidation at the moment. And even some that are closing stores, Bed Bath & Beyond, which is in real serious trouble, is closing stores. They can't do liquidation sales because their stores aren’t open. That puts you in a cash crunch. You could turn inventory into cash and that's somewhat of a good thing, especially if you're a regional based store, there's probably not three Bed Bath & Beyonds that you could drive to easily, so if yours closes, that's probably not going to take sales from another one. So, it's a really challenging position.

And some of these stores are just going to find seasonal items that when that season rolls around again -- we don't have seasons here, so it doesn't matter, but if you live in a place that has weather, you know, what was trendy this Spring might not be in style next Spring. So, that might be stuff you end up seeing at, you know, TJ Maxx or worse, see it really at a very low discount. It is going to be a good time to shop clearance racks, and that is not something that's great for stores.

Lewis: So, so much of what we were talking about today was J. Crew focused, and they’re a private company, I think it's worth talking a little bit about what happens during the bankruptcy process if you are a shareholder in a publicly-traded business, because we gave a quick overview of a couple of businesses that are, you know, I don't want to say “bankruptcy watch” but are certainly going to be having a hard time over the next couple of quarters and might hit that cash crunch soon.

And the reality is, if you're holding stock in a business that is contemplating bankruptcy, it's probably not good for you.

Kline: In most cases, you either get wiped out or shareholders end with a much smaller piece of the company. So, for example, you can still, I think last I looked, buy Sears over the counter, but the portion of Sears that is that tradable amount is a very tiny fraction of what it was before Sears declared bankruptcy. So, a lot of people ask this on The Fool Live shows, “Wow! this has gone so low, should I buy it?” No, if it's going to go to zero or it’s going to declare bankruptcy, what you buy is going to end up pretty worthless or completely worthless.

So, I would generally avoid companies on this list with the exception of, if you look at a company and it’s trading low, and you say, “Wow! They just made a change in CEO and I believe the new CEO has the ability to turn this around.” Maybe you take a small position but recognize that a company like JCPenney, and I like the CEO at JCPenney, but they don't have enough money to enact her plans, so it is very possible that JCPenney uses a bankruptcy as a way to get out of some store leases, as a way to reorganize its debts, and doesn't intend to go out of business. If that happens, it does not matter that I like the CEO and bought [laughs] shares of the company, those shares will end up worthless or next to worthless.

So, you have to be very careful as an investor. If you're investing in retail right now, do your homework, look at companies that are coming through this strongly: Costco, Walmart, Target, even Best Buy, which is doing about 70% of its sales, will come out of this the other side in a pretty good position. But TJ Maxx, TJX is the company name, which is closed but should be really well-positioned for a booming comeback, based on what its business sells. Anybody else, I mean, not anybody else, I didn’t go through every retailer there, but a lot of retailers are not going to come through this well. And bankruptcy, even a strategic one, is a very real possibility.

Lewis: Yeah, I'm not someone who generally wants to put money into the retail space just because the overhead is huge, there's inventory carrying costs, all these different things, and you know, that lightning in a bottle effect that we were talking about before. But I think if you are interested in investing in the space, it is far better to look for businesses that maybe have taken a small haircut because they aren't able to keep stores open but are otherwise strong, rather than shopping deep, deep value and looking for companies that have sold-off dramatically.

Because, you know, one thing we didn't touch on the bankruptcy process is there is a very clear hierarchy to who gets paid and how they get paid. And common shareholders are always last. You know, there's the run of the mill where you're going through, and usually taxes are considered at some point, then you go through the actual people that are creditors and have given some access to debt to that company. Then you have bondholders, then you have preferred shareholders, and then you get to the folks who own the common stock and so --

Kline: … and you have vendors. So, usually the last people paid or the vendors. And maybe company owes $100 million and has $10 million left, that $10 million is going to get split between the vendors, sometimes at the end, a vendor will say, I'm not shipping to you without a guarantee, so that vendor could move to the top of the line, but shareholders can do nothing, you will always be at the end of the line.

Lewis: Yeah. And so, it's important understand that, because while a low share price for some of these businesses might seem super-enticing, if things aren't able to work out and they can return to operating, it's going to be dicey, you're probably not going to be getting much of your money back.

Kline: Another company I really like that we've talked about here before, just to close on something positive, Five Below is closed right now. You cannot shop or you can shop online. They're going to have their absolute pick of merchandise. That is a store that's fun to shop in, it’s really inexpensive, that is going to become an affordable indulgence for parents. “Hey, I can't take my kid to Disney World, but you know what, I can give him $5 and let him buy some candy at Five Below or a new whatever, new headphones or whatever it is.” Their business model, while they're going to be a really awful quarter, couple of quarters, whatever it is, assuming they come out of this --and they look to be in pretty good financial shape, that's going to be a store that's going to explode in terms of sales, I'm not talking stock price, once this all ends.

Lewis: Yeah. And you mentioned, the TJX Companies, and the other one I'll throw in there is Ollie's Outlets. You know, they are a very similar model where they are picking stuff up on the cheap and it's kind of that fun bargain-hunting approach to shopping. All of those types of businesses operate well when there's excess inventory in the retail marketplace.

Kline: And some Ollie's have been operating on a grocery model during this. They do not do a good job of updating their corporate website and I've been too lazy to drive to the Ollie's near me, but the last thing they posted was that they are pivoting to a grocery model, where possible. Which makes sense, they had some food, so the ability to stock more food and staples and things like that. I don't expect that their numbers are going to be good, but their numbers aren't going to be zero, whereas a lot of closed retailers are literally going to have, you know, whatever tiny amount of sales they’re doing online.

Lewis: Yeah. Well, Dan, I'm glad that you were able to end that on a positive note, because that was a little bit of a downer of a show. I mean, up here in the Northeast it's already raining and it's miserable. I feel a little bad putting this one out into the airwaves [laughs] on such a glum day.

Kline: [laughs] Hey, the stock market is up, so -- which I don't actually care about on a day-to-day basis, but, folks, this is going to be ugly, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. You know, this isn't forever. I am a big -- I am majorly negative on people writing stories, like, we will never go back to shaking hands again. Yeah, we will. We’re going to shake hands again, it just might not be this year. You know, we’re all going to get to be in the stands and watch our favorite sports team or concert or whatever it is, we're going to get to go to the beach.

This is a pause, this is not the new reality and think of it that way. Try to find joy in the short-term, whether it's watching your favorite performers do something live on YouTube for free or whatever it is. Find things to get through this and recognize that eventually we will get to do upbeat shows about, you know, the Disney comeback and all the retailers and the innovation that comes out of this, all the exciting things that are going to happen. I am very upbeat despite how negative some of the show comes off as.

Lewis: I appreciate that, Dan, I think we all need a little dose of that. [laughs] Thanks so much for hopping on today’s show.

Kline: Thanks for having me.

Lewis: Alright, listeners, that's going to do it for this episode of Industry Focus. If you have any questions or you want to reach out and say, “Hey!” shoot us an email over at IndustryFocus@Fool.com or tweet us @MFIndustryFocus. If you want more stuff, subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.

As always, people on the program may own companies discussed on the show, and The Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against stocks mentioned, so don’t buy or sell anything based solely on what you hear.

Thanks to Austin Morgan for all his work behind the glass today. For Dan Kline, I’m Dylan Lewis, thanks for listening and Fool on!

This article represents the opinion of the writer, who may disagree with the “official” recommendation position of a Motley Fool premium advisory service. We’re motley! Questioning an investing thesis -- even one of our own -- helps us all think critically about investing and make decisions that help us become smarter, happier, and richer.